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Examining Jurgen Windcaller

  • Mr. likes this
  • Tom
    Member
    October 29, 2014

    I’ve got internet and time, so here’s my third installment. I’ll address Phil’s replies and commentary first. I think most of my points have been addressed by someone or another at some point in this thread already, but here’s my thoughts.

    “So, to look at Olaf One Eye and the way his burial was carried out centuries after the fall of the Cult, what conclusions can we draw? The most obvious being that the old practices associated with the Cult were either still in practice or going through a mini revival. Hell, the guy even put a word wall in there.

    So why do we see him in Sovngarde if the ancient practices were used in his tomb? Hard one Tom. I propose that the shambling rotter we fought wasn't Olaf at all. Or at least, not the one who captured the Dragon. See, the controversy surrounding King Olaf points to him being a fraud and his response to this was swift and brutal. Maybe there were two people - the hero who captured the dragon and the jarl who claimed the capture as his own deed.

    The king wanted to go to Sovngarde but he also wanted to strengthen the legend which connects him with dragons. Reviving the old ways and getting a burial in that style reinforces his legend. The Olaf we see in Sovngarde is the hero who should have taken the credit for Numinex's capture.” - Phil

    I’ll expand upon my speculation without evidence comment in regards to Olaf One-Eye. I think the hinge of our disagreement here is on burial rights and the Dragon Cult as a whole. You, I read, take it as something started by and associated with the Dragon Cult, and the Dragon cult was the sole religion of the ancient Nords. I disagree. I think the burial practices were part of ancient Nordic culture as a whole and the Dragon Cult was just that, a cult within the larger Nordic pantheon of gods.

    There is difficult in separated the Dragon Cult versus other cultural practices, but I think people attribute more to the Cult than they should. I don’t think it was nearly as widespread for as long as it seems people think it was. Don’t misread that as me denying dragon worship though, or the power of the dragon priests. I think there were high priests of other totems, as can be seen in the tablets and carvings throughout the barrows and tombs, who all had significant importance to the ancient Nords. But that’s a discussion for another time.

    Now to Olaf, I think you’re drawing conclusions without good evidence when I’ve provided much more plausible reasons. I think he was buried in the tradition for the ancient nords, this practice having no necessary connection to the Cult, and very probably Dead Men’s Respite was already an ancient barrow before Olaf was interred there (if you require an explanation for the word wall).

    Your suggestion of there being two Olaf’s is, very simply, unfounded. He’s in Sovngarde because he worships the Shor, he’s a draugr because the Nords still practiced mummification.

    “The problem with Jurgen Windcaller is that after his epiphany Skyrim's mightiest weapons were silent. Since when did Kyne become a peace-loving hippie? She is a Goddess of War and storms, she's not Kynareth.” - Phil

    This Kyne remark I find perplexing. I don’t recall saying anything about the pacifist aspects of the Way of the Voice. The Way of the Voice isn’t strictly pacifist, the Greybeards are, but the Way of the Voice specifically says the Thu’um is to be used in times of true need. It does not reject its use in war, only needless use of the Thu’um in any situation. The highlighted bits I pointed out was the connection between Kyne, the Thu’um, the Way of the Voice, and the Greybeards from a religious perspective.

  • Member
    October 29, 2014

    he’s a draugr because the Nords still practiced mummification.

    So, you think that every person Nords mummify ends up as a draugr? I kinda agree but also think that there must be something else for them to become "restless". Some power that brings them back from the dead. Based on Arkay priest's quest in Whiterun we know that it can happen on its own in TES. But if no magical effects are required, why does the Hall of the Dead idea still active? Surely people would've realized that their relatives are going to walk as zombies after some time.

  • Member
    October 29, 2014

    Why should mummification = draugr?

  • Tom
    Member
    October 29, 2014

    No. I don't think any of it is a certainty. I don't even think it's something that common. I'm not entirely sure the nords practice mummification any more, but I think most draugr were interred before the Divines meaning before Arkay's rites, which is why there are more draugr walking around.

  • Tom
    Member
    October 29, 2014

    I've been using draugr as a catch all term for corpses preserved, not just for those walking around.

  • Member
    October 29, 2014

    Ah, that might explain some of the misunderstanding. I know that those wrapped up are also labeled as draugr, but I've only been referring to the walkers.

  • Member
    October 29, 2014

    But if Andurs's words are of any indication, Arkay's rites only temporarily pause the process. When he misplaced his amulet, the skeletons arose.

    In a world with necromancy and such a unique phenomenon it would be a lot safer to burn the bodies (like vikings used to do, if I'm not mistaken). 

    There is also the book Amongst the Draugr that claims a connection between the draugr and dragon priests

  • Member
    October 29, 2014

    I'm not convinced that the dead are getting up just because he misplaced his amulet, or that Arkay even has any particular influence over them. The only thing clearly expressed in his dialogue is that having the amulet would allow him to confront the undead by giving a powerless man power. If they were really so dependent on rites to stay down, why wouldn't he present that very clear connection? "I've misplaced my amulet, without which I can't perform Arkay's rites. You know what that means...the dead may rise." In stead, it just sounds like a coincidence.

  • Member
    October 29, 2014

    Going through this discussion has been a great read and I just thought I'd add my two cents:

    If we know that some draugr are entombed with some great figure (ie Dragon Priests) to service them in death. That much is established. But what if the others are only because of the return of the dragons, giving power to the dead corpses. It was mentioned before that the dead have been getting up and walking around before the return of dragons, but what if these accounts were only of the draugr in service to Dragon Priests or the like? Draugr in tombs without Dragon Priests could then be attributed to the return of Dragons.

    Exactly what about the return of dragons is prompting the restlessness in the draugr I'm not sure about, but with there already being a link between the dragon priests and the draugr I don't think it's too much of a stretch.

  • Member
    October 29, 2014

    Wow, that's a really interesting theory, Paige! What if Alduin is just coughing Slen Tiid Vo at barrows? Could be part of his agenda. Really cool idea!