[blockquote][b][url=/profile/KarverTheLorc]Karver the Lorc[/url] said:[/b]

Okay, can someone tell me why the comments are sort of screwed here?

Anyway, since you mention CHIM, Phil, there was always one analogy about the alternate realities I was quite fond of. So Aurbis is wheel and when you look at it from the side you see a tower, the I, right? So, the analogy. If you could see alternate realities, what would you see when you look from the side? And infinite line of Towers? Alright, and now if you could see alternate realities and look at the wheel from the front, what would you see? Infinitely wide wheel?

Okay, I have actually no idea where I´m heading with this to be honest. Maybe if the alternate realities are still within that one wheel or if they are their own wheels.

Now, I might remember it wrong, but isn´t the theory of multiverse something about frequancy? Like, you have one Earth but you also have who knows how many other Earths in the exact same time and at the same place, only vibrating at different frequency.

My mind is jumping from one thing to another, but couldn´t we use this frequency thing for the Towers? Namely Crystal and White-Gold?

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I have no idea why the comments are screwy. I'll look into it in a sec :D

Hmm, I think I follow. I mean, you mentioned Daedric Realms and such being seperate realities and I think that's right too. They obey different laws, time moves differently, and they are utterly alien. So i suppose it depends on your interpretation. They are the spaces between the spokes of the wheel, but still a necessary part of the Hurling Disc and thus part of our reality, or universe.

If that disc was infinitely wide... Now here's where it gets weird in actual physics. Remember that thing about an infinite number of monkeys and typewriters? Given an infinite amount of time they'd reproduce every book ever written an infinite number of times because the probability of that happening is, well, infinite.

So, in a very real way, even in one infinite universe as opposed to a multiverse, an infinite number of permutations can exist. Stretching into infinity is an infinite number of Earths, and each Earth would have one you. There's an infinite number of yous in an infinite universe. So "Many Worlds" and infinit universe do look sort of similar.

Frequency, yes. That's Superstring Theory and M Theory. Works very nicely with Tonal "magic" I think :D So yeah, I reckon we could go down that route in our own bumbling way.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/JusticiarThorien]Justiciar Thorien[/url] said:[/b]

Well... Let's take it even further into the realm of Sheogorath))) Honestly, I'm feeling like I'm walking a rope)))

So, the multiverse. For a while, let us forget Wheels and Is and create a simple mathematical model. I hope it won't make anyone's head hurt)))

Let's return to the very beginning, where Anu (the first one) went to sleep and Dreamed the very first Dream. The Dream is a sequence of events that take place in certain circumstances with certain participants, basically a movie.

Now let's envision our multiverse as a coordinate plane, in which one axis is time and  the other is... no, not space, but change actually))) The beginning of our original Dream is the zero point, the start. Every moment of time in the Dream is a point along the time axis. Every possible variation of every detail in the Dream is a point along the change axis. The Dream-movie is replayed again and again, and every time it is replayed is a Kalpa. Every slightest change creates a new timeline, a new C0da. There is infinite number of variations and all of it exists simultaneously in our coordinate plane.

But then let's create an equation. There will be our main coordinates, Time and Change, and some other variables. Those other variables are the Towers. What a Tower is, in essence? It's a manifest, an idea. It's a factor that influences the whole equation.

So for instance we have the Crystal Tower. It exist in every place, says Sotha Sil. If we transfer it to our coordinate plane, it would mean that on every single variation of the Dream there will be the Crystal Tower. That doesn't mean it will be in every point of time though. Indeed, inthe timeline that we know it was destroyed.

If the White-Gold Tower exists in all time, then it would appear like in every variation of the Dream where it was it has always existed, but there are also some variations where it never existed.

And let's make things even crazier and add the theory from my previous post into this picture)) We add another axis and turn our coordinate plane into a coordinate space. This new axis in the axis of aspects, of perceptions. Every single soul in every possible variation of the Dream, in every time is a point on this axis of aspects, and thus a coordinate plane unto itself. These are all the possible parallel "us", and each of them is a potential Dreamer.

So it seems like CHIM is when a certain soul becomes a variable in an equation much like a Tower.

Amaranth, however, is not a variable, it's a complete new multiverse. Only the "zero" of that new coordinate space will be different. But it would be influenced by the "mother" multiverse, so it means that to take control of one such multiverses means to control all the subsequent ones. In this light, what Nocturnal wanted looks rather big))))

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Cool! I can't say if that's right or wrong, but I do like it and it does certainly contain enough there not to be dismissed. Especially the last part because Anu's dream is a memory of the previous dreamer's, and presumably the next dreamer will populate the dream with memories from this one.

Ok, so. What does this mean:

?

"Ajacent to all time and space"? To me it sort of implies time is one continuous, linear structure - it is as we know it. However, the fact that we fight versions of the end boss from parallel lives suggests that time is actually several streams.

Agree with that?

The trouble is, that flies in the face of various things, most notably Vehk and Vehk. That said, Sotha Sil in CWC calls these stories of his to be stories-made-reality.

So i guess my question is, do these timelines persist alongside time as we know it? Or are they like tributaries from a river that ultimately lead nowhere but are anchored in place by the presence of White Gold? That is to say, if the Towers anchor the dragon of time in place, they will do so at every single point in time even when time splits and breaks.

Well, not all of us have been blessed with minds of poets and artists, some operate on more... plain... planes)))

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Paws]Paws[/url] said:[/b]The only thing I'm struggling with is that new timeline equals a new coda idea. I don't necessarily disagree, but would suggest that while a new timeline is created, the Time Dragon does reconcile it and essentially fuses the new and old together. These dragonbreaks are potential new codas, and while they last they do appear to be seperate, like a river splitting into two before rejoining each other farther down.[/blockquote]

Ah, indeed I forgot to mention Dragon breaks))) The thing is, when a change occurs it doesn't necessarily create a Dragon Break. I mean there is no Dragon Break if one day Heimskr catches a flu and doesn't go to preach about Talos on the street, right?))) Changes aren't always huge and evident to all. But even such a little change is a new Coda. Codas are all possible variations, right?

A Dragon Break is a basically few timelines temporarily merging. It's not one river splitting into two before rejoining, it only seems that way if you look from inside. If you look at it in the context of the coordinate space, it's the other way around, two merging into one and later separating again. I mean, there can be a timeline where was a Dragon Break and certain contradicting events, let's say, A, B, C, and D occured at the same time. In another timeline there was a Dragon Break, but only A and B occured but not C and D. In a third timeline there was no Dragon Break. Yes, the Time Dragon reconciles, fuses the new and the old, but never forgets! Otherwise we wouldn't know that there was any Dragon Break at all.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Paws]Paws[/url] said:[/b]So it sounds as though you are describing an infinite universe in TES, with only Amaranth being the thing to bring about a new infinite universe in which an infinite number of Crystal Towers will be present. So now we have a multiverse with infinite universes within?[/blockquote]

Well in fact each multiverse is not really infitite. It starts with certain initial data set. There is always a finite number of possibilities in every situation. But the overall number of possibilities would still be a rather big number, so we couuld as well see it as infinite. The number of multiverses though on the other hand... that one does seems infinite. The original Anu sought to solve a certain dilemma in his Dream, but with a new Dreamer will the dilemma always remain the same? The answer to this question is what would determine if the mmultiverse of multiverses is infinite.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Paws]Paws[/url] said:[/b]We may need to take a step back and bulletise what we can definitively say. At this stage I think that would be helpful :D[/blockquote]

Can we really say anything definitely at all? All of what I said is just my own interpretation. Most people probably would see it as total nonsense.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Paws]Paws[/url] said:[/b]"Ajacent to all time and space"? To me it sort of implies time is one continuous, linear structure - it is as we know it. However, the fact that we fight versions of the end boss from parallel lives suggests that time is actually several streams.

Agree with that?

The trouble is, that flies in the face of various things, most notably Vehk and Vehk. That said, Sotha Sil in CWC calls these stories of his to be stories-made-reality.

So i guess my question is, do these timelines persist alongside time as we know it? Or are they like tributaries from a river that ultimately lead nowhere but are anchored in place by the presence of White Gold? That is to say, if the Towers anchor the dragon of time in place, they will do so at every single point in time even when time splits and breaks.

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I don't really see any conflict here. "Adjacent to all time and space", what does it mean? Connected to all time and space, right? Now, a Tower (maybe the White-Gold Tower particularly more than any other) is a manifestation of an idea. An idea that is present in all time and space? Why not? I would even go so far as to say that all time and space might be reflected in the White-Gold in some way, like adding more data to the initial idea.

Vivec? Well we can look at him from two points of view. There is Vivec the mortal who is, well just like all other people. Then, CHIM is where a soul turns into something like a Tower. So Vivec the god exists in more than one version of reality and all of those timelines where he exists are reality for him.

I guess "nowhere" here would be the case of the unanswered question. Every timeline is an attempt to answer the original question posed at the beginning of the Dream. An unfinished story? A timeline without end? Is that possible? Even the destruction of all the Towers would be still a variation of an end.

Towers aren't what anchors the Dragon in place (does he even need to be anchored?), they are the persisting variables in the equation. They set the direction to all the universe. That means, even in a timeline where one of the Towers was never built (the variable equals zero?) there is still an implication that it is there. So yes, even when the time splits and breaks, the direction persists.

On an unrelated note to Towers, this one made me shake my head. It´s like damn horse breeding.

Hmm)) This made me smile rather than shake my head))) While I feel that such matters should be discussed with more subtlety than in this letter, it still makes sense. What wrong do you see in it?

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/JusticiarThorien]Justiciar Thorien[/url] said:[/b]

Hmm)) This made me smile rather than shake my head))) While I feel that such matters should be discussed with more subtlety than in this letter, it still makes sense. What wrong do you see in it?

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What's wrong? That people are being treated and compared to animals for breeding, that's what's wrong. That this behavior is probably what leads to the Purges that Thalmor say don't exist in the Fourth Era. Look how they measure the eyes, how they focus on  exact facial details. This is a stone's throw from Eugenics and I wager that this has been their view on breeding from "we are Altmer" day 1. That's some sick shit.

From a narative perspective, it's freaking uncanny as hell how much this parallels what I've written. Wow, just wow. 

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/AxiusRevan]A-Pocky-Hah![/url] said:[/b] Wait, so you're telling me... male Altmers are sold like premium cattle? I can see how this would continue in 4E, but man that's fucked up.[/blockquote]

You think that would be only okay for the females?))))

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/LissetteLongChapper]The Long-Chapper[/url] said:[/b]

What's wrong? That people are being treated and compared to animals for breeding, that's what's wrong. That this behavior is probably what leads to the Purges that Thalmor say don't exist in the Fourth Era. Look how they measure the eyes, how they focus on  exact facial details. This is a stone's throw from Eugenics and I wager that this has been their view on breeding from "we are Altmer" day 1. That's some sick shit.

From a narative perspective, it's freaking uncanny as hell how much this parallels what I've written. Wow, just wow. 

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Lol. As if it's not like that in every other culture and even in the real life. They just say it outright, while we make a nice face and pretend it isn't so. It is quite so, even in our life right now, always has been that way and always will. Maybe just not to the point of the shape of ears, though I wouldn't be surprised if to some even to that point.

And you know what? I think that it's better when it's said outright. It's the pretending and nice facades that make me sick.

All the personal preferences aside, it actually makes perfect sence. In TES one's race is not just skin color and ear shape, it's what you really are. So why would any self-respecting Altmer want to marry someone who might have who-knows-what as their ancestors? They care about what their future children will be like after all.