Skyrim Character Building » Discussions


Character Build: The Chevalier

Tags: #Character Build: Knight  #Character build: Supporter  #Character Build: Juggernaut  #Race: Imperial  #SE Rank: Adept 
  • Member
    June 23, 2017

    May I recommend using a perk spread?

  • Member
    June 23, 2017

    Solyeuse said:

    May I recommend using a perk spread?

    Even though I describe the key perks with the skills? I am also unsure of how to seamlessly incorporate a perkspread... Any tips?

  • Member
    June 23, 2017

    I suppose it's not strictly necessary. I'm just used to seeing one - everyone uses them these days. And it does offer a snapshot of what the build will look like, say, at level 25. You've listed all your key perks, which is nice, but I don't really get a feel of which perks are more important to the build and which are less so. That won't be remedied by a perk spread, either, of course.

    If it were me, I would replace the Windhelm pic - after your describe your skills is a good place for a perk spread.

    I'm sorry - it's just, the build feels weird to me for some reason. I'm struggling to put this into words, and don't take any of what I say as an insult or anything. It just - feels a little disjointed. It could be my unimpressively high standards, I'm a bit mean in that regard. But the "feel" of the build is sort of missing? The screenshots and images don't really add to the feel of the build. When do you use mounted combat and when do you fight on foot? Are your anti-mage tactics different from how you fight archers different from how you fight Forsworn different from how you fight Draugr? (Do you fight Draugr?)

    It's just... the build is cohesive, if you scrutinise it, it is very strong in that regard. But one problem is that it doesn't feel cohesive.

     

    Um, hang on, I have this disclaimer saved somewhere... ahem. This is all my opinion. In the end, choices on creative design for your build fall to you and no one else. If you decide to change something about your build, do so because you have decided it, not because someone else recommended the change. If you don't like the recommended changes, no one can, or should, force them. (I have to include this when I give feedback because I tend to be very pushy and naggy and always convinced that I'm right? It's not a very good quality to have.)

     

    Oh also, I don't want to be that meanie, so tell you what - when I'm free I'll do some screenshots for your build, put them in an album and link it to you. (it will take a while - I'm very busy right now, but expect them... within a month?) How does that sound? I just want to convince you - I am on your side in this. I don't believe in praising everyone (tough love that's all tough and no love, I think it's been said) but don't believe for a second that I'm here to tear you down.

  • Member
    June 23, 2017

    Solyeuse said:

    I suppose it's not strictly necessary. I'm just used to seeing one - everyone uses them these days. And it does offer a snapshot of what the build will look like, say, at level 25. You've listed all your key perks, which is nice, but I don't really get a feel of which perks are more important to the build and which are less so. That won't be remedied by a perk spread, either, of course.

    If it were me, I would replace the Windhelm pic - after your describe your skills is a good place for a perk spread.

    I'm sorry - it's just, the build feels weird to me for some reason. I'm struggling to put this into words, and don't take any of what I say as an insult or anything. It just - feels a little disjointed. It could be my unimpressively high standards, I'm a bit mean in that regard. But the "feel" of the build is sort of missing? The screenshots and images don't really add to the feel of the build. When do you use mounted combat and when do you fight on foot? Are your anti-mage tactics different from how you fight archers different from how you fight Forsworn different from how you fight Draugr? (Do you fight Draugr?)

    It's just... the build is cohesive, if you scrutinise it, it is very strong in that regard. But one problem is that it doesn't feel cohesive.

     

    Um, hang on, I have this disclaimer saved somewhere... ahem. This is all my opinion. In the end, choices on creative design for your build fall to you and no one else. If you decide to change something about your build, do so because you have decided it, not because someone else recommended the change. If you don't like the recommended changes, no one can, or should, force them. (I have to include this when I give feedback because I tend to be very pushy and naggy and always convinced that I'm right? It's not a very good quality to have.)

     

    Oh also, I don't want to be that meanie, so tell you what - when I'm free I'll do some screenshots for your build, put them in an album and link it to you. (it will take a while - I'm very busy right now, but expect them... within a month?) How does that sound? I just want to convince you - I am on your side in this. I don't believe in praising everyone (tough love that's all tough and no love, I think it's been said) but don't believe for a second that I'm here to tear you down.

    Thank you very much for the consructive criticism. On all my previous builds, people would tell me whats wrong without even providing reasoning as to why its wrong or a way to fix it. I also greatly appreciate your offer for help with the screenshots. My dad, whom I frequently talk to about my builds and video games, said, "It doesn't seem like a typical internet post. It seems like he actually cares." so, again, I appreciate the feedback. 

    That being said, I have no idea how to fix the "feel" of the build. Do you have anywhere to specifically point to on how to improve it? I would really appreciate that. I am also unsure as to what you mean by "it doesn't feel cohesive". Do you mind elaborating on that? Doing so would certainly give me a better idea as to how to improve.

    Thanks again for the constructive criticism and feedback. I really appreciate that and would appreciate it if you would provide more in response to the above questions. 

     

  • Member
    July 4, 2017

    OK, I finally have some time to myself, so I figured I should get back to you before I get busy again (which will happen very quickly over the summer). I hope this is useful to you, because I'm going to be spending a lot of time trying to articulate things that I think are very difficult to put into words.

    I commented some days ago that your build is actually cohesive but it doesn't feel cohesive. So if you haven't guessed this post is going to be about cohesion and what it means in the context of character building. I'm gonna start with the definition of cohesion, kindly provided by Google: "the action or fact of forming a united whole." Synonyms include coherence, continuity, connection, linkage. So, trivially, I could say that a cohesive build will feel like one build that forms one whole where every part of the build seamlessly talks to every other part. In contrast an incohesive build will feel like a bunch of separate parts glued together.

    Let's break this down, shall we? Because I'm struggling to figure out what to say and how to say it, I'm going to grab a build off the front page. I'm going to describe it and what I feel makes it cohesive. And hopefully that will help me articulate properly and put into words what I feel. (That's right, I have no idea what I'm about to say, only how I feel. Inspires such... confidence... in you, doesn't it?)

    Liturgy of Affliction! Liturgy of AfflictionThe moment you open this build, you're struck by the inspiring opening image: it's this hooded mage-looking guy. The art style (oil painting-esque), no visible eyes, hunched back, supported by his staff, really helps to sell the feel that this character is kind of... weary. And his arm - it's bandaged and covered in lesions. This guy is in a lot of pain. Then you get to the build's opening text: "the tome that you hold in your hand is a chronicle of pain, of torment, and of discovery." It then blurbs on a bit about casting off the chains of magical ethics and inflicting destruction magic upon my own flesh.

    What does this tell you? We have a tome of pain, torment and discovery, an amoral text of self-harm and power. We have a weary, pained guy. And we have the build title. Any one of these screams "Equilibrium Blood Mage" and the picture really rams it home.

    If you then scan through the images in the build you'll notice a common theme. The second image is this dark-looking guy with some evil chains. The perk spread is a faceless, fiery death mage. The skill pictures and equipment spread are these super arcane-looking pages. You have an evil-looking mage in dark leather commanding what looks like poisonous green spirits. The images in the build push the idea that the build writers Teineeva and Karver are really trying to sell:

    "The lust for power, the urge to be better than your superiors, the need to take over the control of your life. That's what this character is about... not patient enough to wait for his powers to grow. He always wants more, he needs more... a very enjoyable megalomaniac mage playthrough."

    Power is absolutely a central theme of this build. Let's look at a few other choice snippets from the build, shall we?

    "As my tolerance for the pain increased, I began to channel more and more through my own body. My understanding of Destruction outgrew my knowledge of Restoration. While it could still lessen the damage, it could not stop it. My skin became charred and blackened; it dried, flaked off, and cracked. I stunk of cooked meat. But I could not resist the draw of more and more energy."

    "I became like a skooma fiend of the worst sort. I no longer used magic for any practical purpose. I simply sought out more and more energy -- I relished the pain. Anticipated the moment when the energy and the pain would wash over me as one, freezing my flesh, burning it beyond recognition. My skin became a network of scars, sores, lesions, and burns. But it was never enough. Never. I needed more. More pain. More power."

    Um. Okay. Let's stop there before we get nightmares, and think about cohesion again. I'm going to suggest that a cohesive build will be centred on a strong theme. It doesn't need to be an original theme. But every part of the build, from the title to the pictures to your writing itself, should focus on that theme. If you're a megalomaniacal blood mage, every part of the build, every image, every word should reflect that. Beyond that, I'd also suggest that there needs to be connection within the build. It's not enough that every part branches out from the theme like a tree. Each part should also be linked to each other part, more like a spiderweb. Pain is the greatest gift that the gods have ever given mortal man.

    Geez, that build is scary...

    If you look around, a lot of builds really do sell this theme thing absolutely. Some of them articulate the theme of the build within the build itself. Others don't say it aloud, but it's obvious anyway. The Mesmer... an illusionist, a spellsword, a thief; a charming, greedy scoundrel capable of bending the battlefield to his will. Outrageous mystic purples and vivid reds abound throughout the build. The Exorcist... a light-and-desert mage and slayer of undead things. Bright, golden yellows and papery images singed at the edges push the "cleansing light" impression of the build. The Bronze Sentinel... a dread-tank of fire and brimstone.

    What does this mean for you? Looking at your build, a couple of things stand out to me.

    Firstly, your build already sort of pushes its major themes very sell, so maybe it's not that that's the issue. I hope you've found my writeup helpful nonetheless.

    With that said, however, you're struggling a bit on the minor details. In particular this really jumped out at me - in IV: Squires, you start by saying that a large part of the build is in buffing your squires. That was really surprising, because you've made approximately zero mention of that in the rest of the build. That makes this section sort of disjointed (not cohesive) with the rest of the build - this speaks to the second part of cohesiveness, that every part of the build should be linked to every other part.

    In this vein I also don't fully understand when you use horse combat, which you claim is a big part of the build, and when you dismount to fight. That seems like it should be pretty important, but you're not focusing on it at all.

    I'm sorry for not mincing my words or pulling my punches. But your images suck. Images play a big role in pushing the feel of a build and your screenshots are pretty washed-out with a lot of dark colours, emptiness, sadness and dead space (empty space in the image with no important detail). Neither do they contribute at all to the knightly feel of the build. ...I think I offered to take screenshots for you, didn't I? That offer still stands (it would be rather crass of me to retract it, don't you think?). I used screenshots liberally in my build (shameless advetisement) so take a quick look there and if you like the style just let me know, as well as roughly how many screenshots you want me to take, maybe also roughly what you want the screenshots to look like, too.

    I... don't really see the point of carrying a Silver Sword, roleplay-wise. Undoubtedly it's a very powerful gameplay option in the early levels. If you want to justify its inclusion, undoubtedly you can. But it does feel a little bit weird to me.

    Also, this feels weird, but do you start your RP as a high-ranking knight? That sort of feels like the end point of the build. Maybe you start as a squire yourself or something...

    Lastly... I really don't know how to put this nicely, and I am sorry for that, because it's probably going to sting (please remember: I am on your side). But I don't feel excited when I read your build. It's not inspiring. Your writing feels sort of mundane, in that it sort of conveys the idea that you're not that excited about playing and sharing this build. If you can't inspire yourself, how do you expect to inspire anyone else? Are you excited about this build? Do you love it? When you simply take a playstyle or character you really enjoyed and make a build out of it, that enjoyment should show.

    Um, hang on, I have this disclaimer saved somewhere... ahem. This is all my opinion. In the end, choices on creative design for your build fall to you and no one else. If you decide to change something about your build, do so because you have decided it, not because someone else recommended the change. If you don't like the recommended changes, no one can, or should, force them. (I have to include this when I give feedback because I tend to be very pushy and naggy and always convinced that I'm right? It's not a very good quality to have.)

    I hope I've been of some small help to you. I get that this has probably been pretty discouraging to read - I hope you don't hold it against me, get too discouraged, or give up. Please don't.

  • Member
    July 27, 2017

    The Chevalier 1.2 is now live. With this updated version of the build, I have greatly fleshed out sections IV: Squires and V: Gameplay, resized and reformatted the pictures for each skill so that they fit perfectly to the side of each skill decsription, added a perk spread thanks to Soly, and did some minor changes to section VI: Roleplaying. Will do a minor update to 1.2.1 when Soly provides me with some screenshots. Thanks Soly!

  • Member
    July 27, 2017

    oh gog I haven't booted up Skyrim since I started my summer haha, I'll get on that... fine, alright, now...

  • Member
    August 26, 2017

    Quick update to 1.2.1. Soly has provided screenshots so I added those and a caption for both of them in addition to fixing some puncuation and sentences that don't quite make sense. I also changed some words/phrases to utilize better word choice and did some general fleshing out.

  • Member
    August 27, 2017

    ...Okay. Okay. I am deeply impressed.

    Your layout and presentation change is very well done. You've cut out a lot of dead white space and the build reads and flows much more smoothly compared to before. It feels tighter and more precise, if that makes sense. (As you can tell, I'm also a little better at giving precise feedback than I used to be. It was... a hard lesson. Thank you so much for being patient with me.)

    I'm going to run down the build and point out places where I THINK there may be possible, specific build or presentation improvement. After that, but a little later (time-wise), I'd like to run down the entire post word-for-word and point out all the grammatical errors as a sort of quality control. I don't have time for that second one right now, but expect it (and sorry in advance, because I'm a hawk when it comes to grammar edits).

    But before that, let me say a few things. Firstly, as of now, your build is well-crafted and well-put together. It is already good. Secondly, I am only a soly, and I only know what a soly knows and how a soly acts. I can be wrong; I am often naggy and pushy. And to your build, I am only an advisory. You are the author and you have final decision on any changes that may be suggested and that you may or may not want to make. If you like a suggestion or an idea, implement it. If you don't like it, throw it away. And I need you to remember that this applies to everything I say below. My suggestions have a habit of sounding more like instructions.

    Okay, from the top.

    The build overview (Race, stat spread, etc) is generally fine. There's substantively little to change, but you should add Dragonrend to your list of important shouts - it is currently missing. I personally would also remove the table of contents (I think it's unnecessary), but if you like it you can keep it, there's no problem there.

    Major and minor skills. What you have is generally good, and the descriptions are very solid. What I like to do here is try to offer more insight to which perks are important to the character, i.e. what skills do you prioritise perking or leveling (this is generally clear with the Major/Minor skills division)? Which perks are essential game-changers that you rush into existence as soon as possible? For example, personal experience tells me that the Quick Reflexes perk is absolutely essential to combat with a shield. So for example you might state "The Quick Reflexes perk is absolutely essential to combat against melee enemies, while Elemental Protection offers a solid degree of defense against mages. Both of these perks should be prioritised as soon as possible." Think about that, look through your perks list, and pick out the really important ones, then mention them in the skills description.

    Doing this tells the reader which perks are considered essential to the build, and which ones are merely auxiliary. This sort of shapes the build in the early levels (say, levels 10-25) - which perks do I prioritise early on? Which perks make this build what it is, and which perks can we not care as much about?

    Including the above information (what perks are essential and make the build) should be sufficient, but if you want to include a full progression snapshot (i.e. if I only played this build to level 20/25, what would it look like?) and progression perk set, that is also fine.

    You should also check out this post by Dragonborn1921 (the second post from the top of the page) that considers the use of bold and emphasis to draw readers' attention to important things in the build (also see how, above, I've bolded "essential game-changers"? Example, right there).

    Lastly, I would note explicitly the fact that Speech is unperked. If you can dig up three perks to spare, you can perk up to Persuasion and RP'ing it as throwing your rank around, but (1) that requires you to perk Bribery, which is pretty immersion-breaking, and (2) Persuasion in this game is pretty easy anyway. Carry some Speechcraft potions if you must.

    Equipment (Armor). Your text here generally sounds very good ("dons the following apparel" is some really badass phrasing and it's strangely fitting). The whole armor section just sounds really badass, in fact.

    That said, firstly, there exist Steel Imperial Gauntlets and Steel Shin Boots which are (if I recall correctly) straight improvements over the regular Imperial Gauntlets and Imperial Boots. Listen up, this next bit is important. You need to tell us how you level up your Smithing skill. I'd put it here, after that blurb about improving your armor to legendary, but wherever you think it fits should be fine. This is important because I only know of two main ways to level Smithing in this game - characters which invest in the Heavy Armor side of the smithing tree usually level it with Dwarven Bows, while any characters which command Alteration magic may use Transmute Mineral Ore and jewellery. This character has neither of these options open. A single perk investment in Dwarven Smithing opens up the ability to level up the skill with Dwarven bows. If you've used a different method to improve your Smithing, please tell us, because otherwise we'll be stuck smithing iron daggers which is no longer viable for leveling the Smithing skill.

    Equipment (Weapons and Miscellaneous). These sections are generally substantively solid. With that said, regarding the entire equipment section, it's sort of a wall of text right now. You should try to use an image to break it up. You can, for example, hop over to UESP's page with the Champion's Cudgel, put the image into paint.net and rotate it to vertical or horizontal, then put it aligned to the right or the centre. Alternatively I can dump the full Imperial set on one of the game's mannequins, screenshot it, and you can use that.

    Squires. Again, substantively, this is very solid. But again, wall of text, look for pictures to break it up. (Ugh, that reminds me, I wanted to take pictures of Lydia, Adelaisa, and Celann for you... slipped my mind. Look out for them soon.)

    One thing I would consider important here is that you should call attention to the section detailing follower strategies. This is a part of the build that I would consider big and essential, and it's too easy to skip over when skimming. Bold the first sentence, or put in a sub-heading, or something. Just make sure that follower strategis are really, really obvious.

    Gameplay. In your first paragraph, I would add a note as to when you, personally, consider it safe to start Dragonborn. The absolute earliest I would even think about it is level 15 with a follower, because you have to be aware that Dragonborn dungeons are leveled to a minimum of like level 30. Realistically20-25 is likely safer, depending on game difficulty.

    Your description of horse combat is generally on point. You do mention "charging in with your follower, hitting a few times, then retreating back to your follower," which sounds a bit weird to my ears, because isn't your follower charging in right behind you? If I were you, I'd also go back into the game and double check that thing on mounted power attacks. Certainly it's possible to "charge" your mounted attacks, but in my (admittedly limited) experience those aren't actually power attacks and only serve to let you start attacking earlier.

    Any tips on taking on Dragons prior to the acquisition of Dragonrend would be appreciated. Additionally, I would add Dragonrend to your list of Key Shouts (as I mentioned above) because it's just so important to dealing with dragons.

    Aside form your first line ("plays similarly to a typical one-handed warrior") you don't have any information on unmounted combat. In fact, wasn't it this build which said "while enemy focus is on you, play defensively with your shield and bash often, then when enemy focus is on your squire, use repeated power attacks for massive damage"? I'm looking for that, but I can't find it, which is weird. If I'm recalling it correctly and you removed it, I'd consider putting it back in; notes like that on how to handle combat are always greatly appreciated.

    I would also include some information on how the build fights mages and mage enemies. Outside of the Lord Stone's Magic Resist and the Elemental Protection perk you don't have any real anti-magic tools which could be devastating in high-leveled magic duels and vampire fights.

    Roleplaying. I'm not so good with roleplaying sections and feedback on roleplaying sections in builds. It looks fine to me, personally. But maybe I'm missing something and someone else could look it over.

    ...that about wraps it up. Job well done, and I look forwards to seeing any future builds of yours.

  • August 27, 2017

    Oh wow, I absolutely have to second which parts of Soly's comments I've seen (haven't read the whole thing :P). This is a really, really good build, which plays an interesting kind of Support Role that is rarely seen, and rarely done this well. The combat is interesting and somewhat fresh feeling, I like the inclusion or Horseback Combat and the Roleplaying gets to the point while still showing off this character extremely well. I also like the separation of sections (and how you provided the little key at the beginning) and your Equipment section is nice to see, I forget that nowadays most people just assume everyone knows where stuff is but that little addition of telling people where everything is, is just nice to see. 

    EDIT: Okay so really I agree with Soly's opening statement and won't be reading the entire thing at the moment, but damn that is an excellent comment from what I did see. Follow his advice there Aidence :)