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Lore Discussion: Magic Academies

Tags: #Magic 
  • March 29, 2018

    So I was perusing through the asked questions and found one question that caught my interest:

    Is there still something like a Magic Academy in Cyrodiill at the time Skyrim takes place?

    While the answer to this is quite simple, because we know that Synod and College of Whispers are currently the magic academies of Cyrodiil, sanctioned by the Empire, I thought that it actually might not be a bad topic to talk about. Magic Academies. We know of few such places or institutes from the past, such as Shad Astula academy, Schools of Julianos or University of Gwylim, but right at this moment, in 4E 201, we pretty much know only about Winterhold, Synod and College of Whispers.

    So since Mages Guild was dissolved, there should be more individual schools around, no? In theory. And if Nords have a College dedicated to magic, then...damn, there should be more academies, right? Not only in Empire, but also in Dominion's territory, also other provinces not affiliated with either Dominion or Empire. What do you think?

    Which academies of the past could survive the passing of time in your opinion?

    What could be each race's academy dedicated to magic? And let's take into account all the cultural aspects, for the sake of discussion.

    If academies are no longer so prominent, how do you think the mages are trained then?

     

     

  • Member
    March 30, 2018

    Which academies of the past could survive the passing of time in your opinion?

    Come to think of it, I don't know about a whole lot of different magical academies, the first thing that comes to mind for me are the Schools of Julianos mentioned in Daggerfall. While we haven't heard anything from them since then I doubt they have disappeared. Especially after the extensive conversion of Nordic culture from the old Nordic gods to the Alessian Nine, that occurred over the span of the fourth era (I wonder why no one ever got credited for that decision :P), I doubt any religious institution in the Empire would be falling apart.

    If academies are no longer so prominent, how do you think the mages are trained then?

    Apprenticeship is probably the first thing that comes to mind and I think Falion, one of the more independent (successful) mages in Skyrim is a good example. This is a conversation you'll find him having with Agni; his apprentice:

    Agni: "When I grow up, will I go to the College in Winterhold?"
    Falion: "No, I don't think that will be necessary."
    Agni: "But I'm learning about magic, and that's what they do there. Shouldn't I go?"
    Falion: "The College is not the only place to learn about magic."
    Agni: "But you went there, didn't you? Isn't that where you learned?"
    Falion: "I was there only for a short time. Much of what I have learned has been on my own. And I will teach you. You have no reason to go there."
    Agni: "But..."
    Falion: "That is enough."

    The key bit here is this: "Much of what I have learned has been on my own. And I will teach you." 

    So yes, apprenticeship is a thing but furthermore, it looks like there's also a few talented mages who have learned their craft through independent research.

    Could Covens be considered places of learning?

  • March 30, 2018

    @Tein Schools of Julianos. That is actually a thing you have to ponder a bit. I mean, they are pretty much Temples of Julianos, right? But we haven't seen a single one of them in Cyrodiil, and yes, Daggerfall and Oblivion were almost like two separate Lore(s), but what I personally use it to explain the lack of the Schools of Julianos elsewhere is that maybe, just maybe, the Schools were primarily a Breton thing. Like yes, Bretons do share the Alessian religion with Empire but their roots are also elven and I have to wonder if, for Bretons, Julianos isn't a bit intermixed with Magnus or maybe Xarxes of the elven pantheon, you know? But yes, I would like to believe that the Schools are still a thing in High Rock. 

    The apprentice and teacher is definitely the first thing that comes to my mind, but I have to say I haven't really considered that people could learn on their own. That is a very interesting line of thought. I believe that most of these people pretty much just blow themselves up, unless... they get their hands on spell manuals and books on magic. How common would those be, really? 

    Covens. Interesting idea too. In theory, yes, it could be. Senior spellcasters passing down the knowledge to younger witches. 

    But what about the other races? I mean, Crystal-Like-Law of Altmer. Can we consider it a magic academy and was it the only one on Summerset? 

     

  • Member
    March 30, 2018

    Karver the Lorc said:

    @Tein Schools of Julianos. That is actually a thing you have to ponder a bit. I mean, they are pretty much Temples of Julianos, right? But we haven't seen a single one of them in Cyrodiil, and yes, Daggerfall and Oblivion were almost like two separate Lore(s), but what I personally use it to explain the lack of the Schools of Julianos elsewhere is that maybe, just maybe, the Schools were primarily a Breton thing. Like yes, Bretons do share the Alessian religion with Empire but their roots are also elven and I have to wonder if, for Bretons, Julianos isn't a bit intermixed with Magnus or maybe Xarxes of the elven pantheon, you know? But yes, I would like to believe that the Schools are still a thing in High Rock. 

    The apprentice and teacher is definitely the first thing that comes to my mind, but I have to say I haven't really considered that people could learn on their own. That is a very interesting line of thought. I believe that most of these people pretty much just blow themselves up, unless... they get their hands on spell manuals and books on magic. How common would those be, really? 

    Covens. Interesting idea too. In theory, yes, it could be. Senior spellcasters passing down the knowledge to younger witches. 

    But what about the other races? I mean, Crystal-Like-Law of Altmer. Can we consider it a magic academy and was it the only one on Summerset? 

     

    Well, I was under the impression that before Galus Valerion founded the Mages Guild the only place to learn magicks in Summerset was Arteum. I might be wrong there, but I remember their elitist approach to magic being the reason Valerion left to do his own thing. Not sure of Crystal-like-Law ever functioned as a real academy but I wouldn't be surprised. I've got to wonder what ESO will make out of the place.

    Since the Thalmor took control of the summerset isles at around the same time the mages guild collapsed they probably took over that role in some capacity there. So, perhaps they operate something akin to a Thalmor Synod from old mage guild buildings?

  • Member
    March 31, 2018

    Teineeva said:

    Well, I was under the impression that before Galus Valerion founded the Mages Guild the only place to learn magicks in Summerset was Arteum. I might be wrong there, but I remember their elitist approach to magic being the reason Valerion left to do his own thing. Not sure of Crystal-like-Law ever functioned as a real academy but I wouldn't be surprised. I've got to wonder what ESO will make out of the place.

    Since the Thalmor took control of the summerset isles at around the same time the mages guild collapsed they probably took over that role in some capacity there. So, perhaps they operate something akin to a Thalmor Synod from old mage guild buildings?

    I would assume the Thalmor would fall back to that elitist idea as a way to promote Elven supremacy. They would probably have an elite academy where only Altmer (maybe also Bosmers) could attend.

    I could also believe that they have a public magic academy somewhere in Summerset which teaches the lesser races the basic fundamentals of magic, as well as teach them to be more "civilized". Think College of Altmeri Propriety without the Veiled Heritance corruption stuff.  

     

  • April 1, 2018
    Crystal-Like-Law. It is tough,because we have Lore saying it was a pinnacle of magic learning in Tamriel, but the sources are... not so reliable. First is Arena basicaly, which states that Crystal Tower was the best learning center before the construction of Arcane University. Second is King Edward, which again is not so reliable because of its dragon queens and mating dragons - but, but, even books like these can hold a grain of truth and interesting information.
  • Member
    April 1, 2018

    Karver the Lorc said: Crystal-Like-Law. It is tough because we have Lore saying it was a pinnacle of magic learning in Tamriel, but the sources are... not so reliable. First is Arena basically, which states that Crystal Tower was the best learning centre before the construction of Arcane University. Second is King Edward, which again is not so reliable because of its dragon queens and mating dragons - but, but, even books like these can hold a grain of truth and interesting information.

    The biggest issue I have with this information is that I would think the Isle of Arteum would come into the equation somewhere, granted it may not be the best centre of learning due to its elitist approach to the education of magic, but it's still known as one of the foremost magic institutions of Tamriel. According to the chronology and the sources I read, it should be physically present in Tamriel at the time of Arena. As physically present as that place will ever get though.

    As I looked through the chronology of the 2nd and 3rd eras I also found this; which is wholly unrelated but still interesting to know if you weren't aware of it yet. http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Levitation_Act

    Btw, speaking of apprenticeship we also have Neloth and Talvas. I've got to wonder how the teaching of magic was done in Morrowind after the collapse of the Mages guild. Unless the other houses stepped in I wouldn't be surprised if magic is mostly monopolised by the Telvanni and the Temple at this point in the 4th era. We know Hlaalu was ruined and the house replacing it has nowhere near the same political power but might still dabble in magic, and besides that from what we see in Solstheim the Redoran don't seem particularly interested but that might very well be caused by the fact Ravenrock is a shitty frontier town.

    Small addition regarding crystal like law; wonder what they do with the place in ESO

  • April 1, 2018

    I'm mostly trying to not include Psijics here pretty much because of their secluded stance and very few apprentices.

    Yes, know about Levitation Act, it was Beth's very poor explanation for levitation not being included in Oblivion.

    As for Telvanni. Telvanni always held monopoly on magic in Morrowind, the Mages Guild always struggling there. The advantage Mages Guild always had was that its services were aimed at everyone, while the Telvanni... Well, only those worthy. But, Telvanni are actually something that touches on the point you made earlier, about self-taught mages. I mean, you have a Telvanni Magister who can have like... 5 apprentices. Those apprentices are rivals, mostly trying to eliminate each other, and that is even encouraged by the Telvanni. And the magister won't share a bit of his knowledge until there's only 1 apprentice, the last mer standing. That's brutal education if you ask me, but it maked sure that only the worthy learn from the magisters - by worthy I mean crazy, ruthless, calculating and power hungry. GL+HF xD

    As for the Telvanni in the current times... The Lore is conflicting there, like the last scion of House Telvanni in Riften. But then there is Brelyna for example, and I myself find it very hard to believe the Argonians would be able to literally annihilate the House Telvanni. Maybe they'd be able to wipe out the Telvanni of eastern Morrowind but I think that at least Port Telvannis would stay untouched. 

  • Member
    April 2, 2018

    I feel like chucking the various Temples of the Two Moons Dance into this topic. Although they aren't quite the same as academies, there are one or two things of note. We know there are a number of these temples scattered acros Elseweyr, some more famous than others, and that these places teach philospohy and martial arts. Yet that sort of falls short of the impact these temples have on Khajiiti society.

    ESO sort of upped the from being schools of philosphy and martial arts to something more. They are tended to by priests and priestesses, also known as the Lunar Clergy, who are healers and teachers. If I recall correctly, we're told that it's these holy folk who teach the Khajiit the correct methods of speaking, how it's impolite to say "I" or "me" (I'll need to head back to Reaper's March and find that quote to be certain.) Nevertheless, these institutions and their priesthood play a huge role in kitty society down to the fine details.

    I'm thinking that the magical training the Lunar Clergy undergo is entirely in-house. That is to say, they probably don't ship their kits off to the College of Winterhold in order for them to get a magickal education. Indeed, we meet the Lunar Champions, one of which is a priestess who trained in the various temples. So while being more spiritual and less arcane in tone, Temples of the Two Moons Dance could potentially be contenders as magic academies. Granted, we may not see these priests and priestess fling fireballs at dro-m'athra (I feel the need to see what spells Shazah uses, now) but we may see them using spells which would fall into the Restoration school by our modern thinking. Becaause they are also skilled at banishing dark spirits, some Conjuration may also be present.

    Interesting, too, because the Khajiit don't seperate their gods and demons in the familiar way (Azurah the Daedra is not a Daedric Prince to them but a Goddess as important as Khenarthi... who is sometimes referred to as "he"), the dreaded traffick with daimons schtick might not apply. So, in theory, a priest or priestess could also be using Daedric magic in certain situations.

    So yeah, I know it probably doesn't count, but these temples might be worth a mention because they do train a lot of students. The Two Moons Dance techniques could very well encompass magickal training as well as martial and philosophical study. It could well be that there is little distinction between the three. If the Two Moons Dance is a philosophy of survival and to live in harmony with the rhythms and cycles of life, magic must surely hold as important a place as physical and mental well-being, no?

  • April 2, 2018

    I was wondering who'd mention the monasteries. Of course it's Paw Paw :D

    I was basicaly thinking along the same lines as you there. The martial arts, the philosophy, there has to be a trace of magic in that somewhere - magicka's everywhere after all. In my opinion it just depends on how much of the actual magic they teach there. My mind's a bit sketchy here, wasn't there a town in Reaper's March which had some kind of group of mages?

    Yeah, but anyway, wanted to say that while the monasteries seem like good starting point, I'm sort of a mind that Khajiit are actually those who like to study alone and explore things on their own. They're cats, they're curious and also can be very focused. And was there any great mage among the cat-folk? Don't remember it, so that could only prove that Khajiit could have numerous, average, self-taught mages.