Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions


Thalmor, Alduin, and the implications of a new kalpa

  • February 28, 2018

    This is what I posted in the Expedition Thread, and Karver suggested a new discussion topic here:

     

    Please forgive if I’ve missed the answer to this somewhere. I’ve tried to find it in the archives but may just not be looking in the right place. My question is this: given the Thalmor’s belief (MK post, I think) that Mundus is a prison and they need to escape it to “regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit,” does Alduin’s return hasten their plans or sharply curtail them? The idea of a new kalpa isn’t fully understood by most people in game, I think. And me, of course. I’m rambling, but I think my question is does the Thalmor’s goal (in their perspective) need to be met before the kalpa is ended and reborn, or is there evidence that a new kalpa would fix their problem, reset everything to before they were consigned to this plane? 

     

    I’ve also found an MK quote that says this: “Assume The Dawn Era was the End of the Previous Kalpa. The new Kalpa begins with the first day of the Merethic Era."  That would seem to imply that the kalpa doesn’t reset back to creation, but when the new kalpa starts, Mundus is already created. It sounds like that particular spot is a fixed point in time, and what was done before that point cannot be undone. 

     

    And if this is the case, also, is this evidence (if the Thalmor understood kalpa like MK does) that the Thalmor are wrong about what they believe and what they want is impossible? 

     

    I’m not going to lie, I really hope there’s a good reason for the Thalmor to think helping Alduin would help their mission, because that just sounds fascinating. 

  • February 28, 2018
    Bloody hell. I’m typing on my phone and it won’t space correctly. Sorry for the one-paragraph mess. I’ll fix it as soon as my internet comes back up!
  • Member
    February 28, 2018

    Exciting times! I have a few thoughts to share to kick-start and address parts of the question.

    The cycle starts at Convention. That's the moment in which Lorkhan's heart gets ripped out and shot over Tamriel. According to a tune, said heart was heard to shout: "Red Diamond, Red Diamond, the heart and soul of man. Red Diamond, Red Diamond, Protect us 'til the end." :D

    Legend has it that this happened atop the Ur-Tower. The establishment of Lorkhan (Space) penetrating Nirn with his spirit traps the Dragon (Time) into a linear path, like a now-straight serpent bouncing or slithering back and forth between these two Towers -  Red Mountain and Adamantine.

    When we look at the fall of these Towers in that context, perhaps the alpha and omega take more shape. Without the Towers to bind the Dragon, suddenly the Thalmor's possible plan becomes easier to understand:

    1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.

    2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.

    3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit.

    If there were one person who could be said to be holding up Mundus, well that could be Talos, the Tower of Man. Removing all the Towers, and then removing the last Tower, Talos, means the Dragon is free. 

    What's interesting is the Dragonborn, that shard of Aka. Time might desire to go back to being unbound, but he also loves the world. Lorkhan gets embodied as a Shezarrine, and wanders the world, popping up to save the day before drifting off again. TLD represents the possibility of both Aka and Lorky being in the same vessel at the same moment.

    Anyway, the end becomes the begining, and the Dragon is unbound. Time is non-linear. Then "And the awful fighting began again." Because "above us is only an ending, and above that still is only a scribe that hasn't written anything yet. Ald as always forgets the ground below him, and condemns himself and any other who would believe him into this cycle."

  • Member
    February 28, 2018

    *Takes a deep sip of green tea*

    Okay, I will admit that my knowledge of Kalpas is a bit limited. So I'll just throw in my two septims and see if we can find something we can pick on that is relevant to your topic.

    So let's look at the Altmeri Commentary on Talos:

    To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.

    To achieve this goal, we must:

    1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.

    2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.

    3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit

    From the third commentary, I'd theorize that the Thalmor's goal is to start a new Kalpa which is what I presume is what uncoilling the Dragon means. Maybe the next Kalpa would be different much like how Dreugh were the dominant species in the previous Kalpa(s).

    While it is interesting to see the Thalmor working with Alduin, I think the Thalmor have their own way of destroying humanity as opposed to Alduin's. Plus Altmer arrogance meets Dragon arrogance is bound to be a recipe for disaster.

    Again, this is just me rambling much like you are.

    EDIT: Damn it. Paws beat me to it the moment I posted this comment. Oh well, I'll just leave it here.

  • February 28, 2018

    No, you guys both said different and useful things. And I kind of sort of understand what the Thalmor want even if I don’t reallly understand the tower lore - good lord, that could be a degree program in itself.

     

    But what about what MK said about the new kalpa starting on the first day of the Merethic Era? On the first day of the Merethic Era, Mundus had already been created, is that right? All the different people were created, men and mer alike, is that true? Or are we getting into dragon break/rewriting history territory here, which I’m not really great at keeping up with. 

     

    It sounds to me like if the Thalmor get a new kalpa, they get one already set at the Merethic Era, if I”m interpreting MK’s second quote correctly, which I definitely might not be. 

     

    I’m thinking that the Thalmor have to do all their tower destroying before Alduin does his world eating, or all their work has been in vain. I hope that’s not the case, but I’m sort of afraid it is. 

     

    And re the shard, I was wondering what that meant for the Dragonborn - does the shard have to be reconstituted somehow to fix things? I mean, if there’s still a shard out there, things are still broken. I like how this redditor explains it. No idea if he’s out of left field or not. But it’s fascinating. https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/3jxg0r/why_the_dragon_eats_himself_the_wineglass_model/

  • Member
    February 28, 2018

    A-Pocky-Hah! said:

    *Takes a deep sip of green tea*

    While it is interesting to see the Thalmor working with Alduin, I think the Thalmor have their own way of destroying humanity as opposed to Alduin's.

    EDIT: Damn it. Paws beat me to it the moment I posted this comment. Oh well, I'll just leave it here.

    Whispering Fanged! :D

    To complete the thoughts, TLD is Aka and Lorkhan in the same space and time. Could that imply balance? Belief is reality, the predominant culture shapes realty.

    If the elven Time Dragon had greater support, maybe there wouldn't be balance.

    It could be that Talos-as-TLD sharing that person with Aka implies that they are in agreement. "Not now, but soon." One day one will have greater support and win maybe, but not today. Today the End Time, Alduin, can be delayed a bit longer.

  • Member
    February 28, 2018

    ilanisilver said:

    It sounds to me like if the Thalmor get a new kalpa, they get one already set at the Merethic Era, if I”m interpreting MK’s second quote correctly, which I definitely might not be. 

    Well that's what they believe would happen. Remember they're basing this off a piece of obscure commentary. It's much like Harkon believing in the Prophecy of the Sun; it may be real, but there's probably a side effect which they didn't take account too. 

     

  • February 28, 2018
    I dont think that Alduins and the Thalmor plans are the same. As far as I know, Alduin is trying to enslave the races of Tamriel and bring back the reign of dragons. I think that the name World-Eater is just to make him scary. The Thalmor are trying to destroy the Towers of Nirn. White-Gold Tower, Adamantine Tower in High Rock, Red Mountain I think, so they can become like gods again when Nirn merges with Aetherius.
  • Member
    February 28, 2018

    ilanisilver said:

    And re the shard, I was wondering what that meant for the Dragonborn - does the shard have to be reconstituted somehow to fix things? I mean, if there’s still a shard out there, things are still broken. I like how this redditor explains it. No idea if he’s out of left field or not. But it’s fascinating. https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/3jxg0r/why_the_dragon_eats_himself_the_wineglass_model/

    I would say Val-Ritz is a trustworthy and insightful poster.

    As Poky pretty musch says above, these aspects are based on the culture. End Time while in Skyrim can only look like Alduin, because to them that's what end time looks like.

    It's possible that the eating of souls - absorbing time - is the aspect/shard of Aka getting bigger as Val-Ritz posits. I like that idea. To do that he opposes another huge shard of himself. Why is the question. I would think that because belief shapes reality and that is how the Towers work - like amplifiers or trees breathing in belief, exhaling reality - that in order for Aldmeri Dominion goals to be realised, they need phyiscal and cultural dominance over man. Everything then would be a golden shade, and their version of the End Time Dragon can come back.

    So Aka is mental. Parts of him want to end the world, parts of him want to save it, parts of him want someting else. It's his brother on the other end who who sort of balances him.

  • February 28, 2018

    DeltaFox said: I dont think that Alduins and the Thalmor plans are the same. As far as I know, Alduin is trying to enslave the races of Tamriel and bring back the reign of dragons. I think that the name World-Eater is just to make him scary. The Thalmor are trying to destroy the Towers of Nirn. White-Gold Tower, Adamantine Tower in High Rock, Red Mountain I think, so they can become like gods again when Nirn merges with Aetherius.

     

    You’re absolutely, right, but the Thalmor don’t know that’s Alduin’s plan, right? Everyone in the game talks about it being the end times, so I”m assuming the AD thinks this aS well. Might be a faulty assumption on my part. 

     

    For the sake of argument, let’s assume (for this one question) that’s what everyone thinks, even the Thalmor, that Alduin’s purpose is to reset the kalpa. Or rebirth it, however that’s phrased. Are they (the AD) going to keep trying to destroy those towers or are they going to try to help destroy Alduin? 

     

    Or, COULD there be an element within the AD that thinks “hey, eating this shit world and starting a new one might be right up our alley, guys? Why don’t we just let this dragon do its thing?”