Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions


Is Tamriel Stagnant?

  • Member
    February 9, 2018

    Has anyone wondered why technological development in Tamriel seems stagnant? The technology used during the time of Skyrim is no different than the technology used during the time of ESO. The gap between those two games is over a thousand years, and during that timespan, there wasn't a single new revolutionary technology ever introduced to society.

    I can understand a few hundred years, but a thousand? How is that possible?

    Which brings me to my (half-baked) theory called the Tamrielic Stasis, which is named after the "Medieval Stasis" trope.

    So here's what I think:

    I think Tamriel, or maybe just Nirn as a whole, is "fated" to be developmentally stagnant. It probably has something to do the whole Stasis-Change cycle, which is a predominant theme in the Elder Scrolls universe. 

    Lorkhan is the Spirit of Nirn, the god of all mortals. This does not mean that all mortals necessarily like him or even know him. Most elves hate him, thinking creation as the act which sundered them from the spirit realm. Most humans rever him, or aspects of him as the herald of existence. The creation of the Mortal Plane, the Mundus, Nirn, is a source of mental anguish to all living things; all souls know deep down they came originally from somewhere else, that Nirn is a cruel and crusial step to what comes next. What is this next? Some which to return to the original state, the spirit realm, and that Lorkhan is the Demon that hinders their way; to them Nirn is a prison, and illustion of escape. Others think that Lorkahn created the world as the testing ground for transcendence; to them the spirit realm was already a prison, that true escape is now finally possible.  

    -Spirit of Nirn

    Also, whenever someone tries to implement massive changes to the world through natural means, it backfires some time later and they're back to where they were. A good example would be Orsinium. As most of you know, Orsinium is the city of the Orsimer (or Orcs). It's been built, sacked, and rebuilt so many times that I think it has become like a annual event or something. Orcs don't usually have a permanent home. They only have strongholds, which are like temporary homes. So Orsinium is considered a big change for their race as they finally have a place to call their home. Of course then there were the Bretons and Redguards who decided to lay siege on the city (several times throughout the centuries) since a unified Orsimer society is bad in their eyes. This causes Orsinium to be destroyed and the Orcs are back to where they began: living in strongholds. Hence, the "stasis" for the "change".

    Another, more recent example, I guess would be the Forsworn Uprising. The Forsworn rebelled against the Nords and took over the Reach. This causes Change. Then Ulfric Stormcloak and his militia show up and they kicked the Forsworn out, which brings them back to Stasis.

    Well that's it for now. I actually have more, but I wanted to see your guys' impression on it first before continuing.

    Please, share your thoughts on this matter. Is Tamriel truly stagnant?

     

     

  • February 9, 2018

    I really dislike the Medieval Stasis concept - or Tamrielic Stasis in TES, as you put it. The whole idea that Nirn doesn't develop technologically because of some higher power preventing it to do so is rubbish because one: storytelling-wise that is just a lazy(imo) excuse to maintain Tamriel the way it is forever and not upset fans; and two: it makes no sense. Many sciences in Tamriel such as magic, politics, military tactics, alchemy, etc., are constantly developing. At a slow pace it's true, but they do develop and change. And on a philosophical level, there cannot be anything at all without change. The whole existence as we know it is not static, things are constantly transforming, decaying, growing, etc. Besides, in TES there were the Dwemer. One might say "well, that's why the Dwemer were extinct: they challanged Lorkhan and vanished", and that's fair enough, but their technology didn't vanish. I mean, their robots and shit are all there! And people have been studiying them for thousands of years, yet by the year 4E200 they're still using torches?! Makes no sense at all. So yeah, Dwemer machines are very cool and all, but their existance make the people of Tamriel look like complete morons. But that's only when you really think about it... in order to just enjoy the game and the Lore, it's better to just suspend your disbelief I guess hahaha

  • Member
    February 9, 2018

    Sarah Lannister said:

    I really dislike the Medieval Stasis concept - or Tamrielic Stasis in TES, as you put it. The whole idea that Nirn doesn't develop technologically because of some higher power preventing it to do so is rubbish because one: storytelling-wise that is just a lazy(imo) excuse to maintain Tamriel the way it is forever and not upset fans; and two: it makes no sense. Many sciences in Tamriel such as magic, politics, military tactics, alchemy, etc., are constantly developing. At a slow pace it's true, but they do develop and change. And on a philosophical level, there cannot be anything at all without change. The whole existence as we know it is not static, things are constantly transforming, decaying, growing, etc. Besides, in TES there were the Dwemer. One might say "well, that's why the Dwemer were extinct: they challanged Lorkhan and vanished", and that's fair enough, but their technology didn't vanish. I mean, their robots and shit are all there! And people have been studiying them for thousands of years, yet by the year 4E200 they're still using torches?! Makes no sense at all. So yeah, Dwemer machines are very cool and all, but their existance make the people of Tamriel look like complete morons. But that's only when you really think about it... in order to just enjoy the game and the Lore, it's better to just suspend your disbelief I guess hahaha

    Fair enough. Each are entitled to their own opinions. I guess I'm more of a cynic who to likes dabble more into the world's meta while you're more of an optimist. Hell, sometimes I even think that our world is just a dream. 

  • February 9, 2018

    So, to be honest I think there is a bit of a Lore reason for it, like there's something somewhere (I'm 90% sure) about why it's remained more or less the same for thousands of years, but I can't for the life of me remember why. As just some random collections of thoughts though, since I'm not going to Lore-Hunt stuff at this time (just about to head to bed but wanted to comment quickly).

    Anyway, so the most logical starting point for me is to remember that it's entirely possible that Tamriel is leading towards some sort of Major Apocalypse. I mean, without going into Daggerfall, Arena or ESO (because I know next to nothing about any of them), we had two near-extinction level events within the reign of a single man, hell I think they're even within a few decades. Both Morrowind and Oblivion could've resulted in massive destruction and possibly the end of the world with Mehrunes Dagon and Dagoth Ur, and there is only a single way for either of them to really be defeated. Then you've got Alduin, who is supposed to have eaten the world. Like, it's important to remember that the Dragonborn had a very real chance of failing. Like the Dragonborn Prophecy, never specifically says that the Dragonborn is 100% going to win, so there's an entirely real possibility that Alduin could win and destroy the world.

    When misrule takes its place at the eight corners of the world
    When the Brass Tower walks and Time is reshaped
    When the thrice-blessed fail and the Red Tower trembles
    When the Dragonborn Ruler loses his throne, and the White Tower falls
    When the Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, bleeding
    The World-Eater wakes, and the Wheel turns upon the Last Dragonborn.

    Essentially...we've got three world-ending events within 300 or so years. That's kind of insane, and I think the numbers probably closer to 5 considering I don't know enough about Arena/Daggerfall. The idea that we're essentially looking at the final days of Tamriel isn't entirely without merit. 

     

    I could go into some shit about Towers and Earthbones and all sort of stuff like that. But really aren't the Dwemer an example of why people might think they shouldn't become more advanced? Like, I mean sure if you look at some of the other older civilizations like the Dunmer and Aldmer, they've done some crazy shit too. Look at the Telvanni Magicks that allow them to create their Towers and the freaking FIELDS OF LEVITATION (in other words...permanent, or semi-permanent locations that just defy gravity). But yeah, the Dwemer were technologically advanced to the point of arguably being ahead of the real-world (or pretty close to it)...but then they all died/disappeared. 

    Wouldn't that terrify you if you were an average person? Or even a scholar. An entire race just up and disappeared except for a single person (that we know of) and it's generally accepted that the reason is that they meddled too much? I mean, it'd be like a country inventing teleportation next month, and then completely disappearing overnight. Like, that would be utterly terrifying, and I think it'd realistically stop people from wanting to do anything, and when they're reminded of it constantly...well I can understand (logically) why a lot of people wouldn't be willing to meddle too much. Oh and remember there are people who have made various staves that control Dwemer Automatrons, so there is a small amount of technological advancement being made.

    I mean, if I were to use a real-world example. The Fall of Rome set the Western World (or what would become Europe if we're going to be super specific) back for hundreds of years. Like there's a real time period that is generally regarded as 'The Dark Ages' where technology (at least in the West), writing and dozens of other things kind of faded out and knowledge was lost. It was a pretty huge deal and that was just with Rome falling. I mean it's not quite the same, but there's a real world precedent for massive cultures falling and that having impacts for large periods of time. I think with the Dwemer being as advanced as they were, and the way they fell...well it's massive compared to something like Rome.

     

    Anyway...I could go into more random thoughts. Maybe even bring in some Lore Stuff, but I'm tired at the moment, and that was fun to write. Hope it brought some thoughts to the conversation, cause it's a real fun idea Pocky :D

  • February 9, 2018
    It's simple, necessity is the mother of invention. Magic exist in ES, rendering most technological advancement unnecessary. I mean look at real world religions, how much have those really changed? They, like magic, are steeped in tradition and arguably effective BECAUSE they rely on developing an idea of there being fundamental truths that wouldn't change for centuries. Now imagine that praying could create fresh water from nothing and teleport waste to an uninhabited nether-demention...you really think we'd bother with inventing indoor plumbing? Lol. Of coarse, not everyone practices magic and yet they still haven't advanced much either...Nords still live in stone houses despite a predominantly anti-magic culture. Though I'd argue that magic is a very personal endeavor and while entire populations benefit from the technological advancements of a few scientist, the scholars of ES are mostly only able (or willing) to help themselves. Like the real world, only a small group of individuals have studied and learned enough to accomplish the ES equivalent of electricity/light bulbs (I.e. the permanent Candlelight spells in the College of Winterhold), but unlike the real world there's no way of producing and packaging these spells to distribute to the masses. So the large majority of people, who are unable to invent the lightbulb themselves, simply go without. Also, the stasis thing doesn't go beyond Magic rendering technology unnecessary the way you're implying that it does. The Orsinium thing just seems to be confirmation bias on your part, I think that's just coincidence. That aside, a lot really has changed in Tamriel. Vivec lost godhood and a machine was needed to keep the ministry of truth aloft (I.e. technological advancement was required only after magic had been removed). Archon was closed and Shadowscales disappeared, the empire is crumbling, Battlespire was destroyed, jyggalag was released from his curse, ect...
  • February 9, 2018
    Currently not in position to post a long comment, will return later. But for now I'd like to adress how everyone is saying that Dwemer were the most advanced. They were, but not in the way you can compare it to our world. The world of TES is a Dream, a Song, and Dwemer learned how to manipulate the song with sound. Tonal Architecture. All their creations are magic but more than magic. Nords have Tonal Architecture too, and that is Thu'um. Redguards? Sword-Singing. Bosmer? Spinners of Valenwood. The only difference is that Dwemer were much more clever in their use of Tonal Architecture than others. And everything is pretty much repeating. Not as much as stasis but as a change and un-change.
  • Member
    February 9, 2018

    There are a few big misconceptions about the Medieval times here in Europe. These times were far from stagnant and in actuality, a lot of discoveries were made during this time. The big differences between the post-renaissance eras and the Medieval era as far as progress is concerned can probably be listed as follows:

    There weren't a lot of scholars or whatever you would like to call people who see discovery as their day-job. Most discoveries were made by craftsmen or farmers and with little need to (good luck getting paid royalties for your ideas in Medieval times) or way of spreading these discoveries, things went rather slowly. A lot of these advancements were related to warfare as well; metallurgy was an important medieval science and saw a lot of advances.


    Technological advancement is cumulative when ideas are spread; the more you know the more you'll discover. So as time goes on, technological advancements will, by a simple logical progression, always accelerate.


    The Scientific method wasn't strictly invented or taught yet. Which is way more important than you might think.


    In Western Europe, a lot of information was lost in the fall of the Western Roman Empire, which set a lot of scientific but mostly cultural advances back by a long time. The Eastern Empire was far less affected by this and a lot of the crucial inventions of the Medieval era came from territories that were in the hands of the Eastern Roman Empire. Or from people that conquered these areas.


    Religion was nearly unquestioned and just like it was in the Renaissance; a lot of progress was made for or by the Church. Especially in the arts and architecture. If someone can, without googling it, explain to me how an arched doorway or a vaulted ceiling works, I would love to hear it :P. But this also meant that fundamental questions were condemned and mostly uninteresting as religion already had answers to these questions.

    I'm not a historian so I may have just presented a heap of bullshit to you, in which case I apologize. But let's quickly look whether the world of TES presents any of these problems, shall we? I'll be looking at this from the perspective that Mundus is a planet like ours which it most likely isn't.

    Mages are not the only ones you could call scholars. But they are among the people most closely related to a modern scientist. They are however, generally selfish, don't study anything other than magic and mostly seek power instead of progress. Alchemists come in as close seconds but sadly follow a very similar pattern. Sharing knowledge on Mundus isn't really a thing considering the number of people spending their life studying the arcane and whatnot.


    As Deebs already mentioned, the disappearance of the Dwemer is not something that would promote scientific progress even if their shit was left behind. The complete and sudden disappearance of a people would teach everyone else to not touch their stuff because inevitably somewhere, there's something that will wipe you and your kin off that plane of existence. Most careful people wouldn't touch Dwemer machines with a ten foot pole. It doesn't help that most of them want to murder you. This is not really a Roman empire situation but represents a similar loss of tech.


    Magic is a thing and therefore, Religion goes absolutely unquestioned. The fact that gods actually seem to be around as well, doesn't help one bit. This loops back to the original point; most advances are made by people practising the Arcana.


    Advances aren't always shared in the world of TES. Hell, they barely ever are. So most stuff isn't accumulative. Again the only example of this would be the now fallen mages guild (and the College of Winterhold) where magic was taught and further discoveries were promoted (but then not always shared).

    All in all, even if you neglect the Metaphysical side of things, Nirn isn't a place where scientific progress similar to the way we've seen it happen in our world, would occur. In many ways, I would say they're off worse than Western Europe in the Medieval Era. Wars aren't frequent enough to promote new ways of warfare or stellar advances in metallurgy, and magic often negates a need for technological progress. Furthermore, conquest is extremely rare in the grand scheme of things and before the printing press trade and conquest were often how ideas were exchanged, in Nirn one of those two is surprisingly infrequent.

    Well, that was a ramble and a half, hope it sort of makes sense.

  • Member
    February 9, 2018
    Well, crossbows were really common in Morrowind. Also, I feel it might get be out of a sense of foreboding. Look at the Dwemer, who were basically half Steampunk half Magitek. Tbrn they decided to fuck with the heart of old Lorkhan and basically all of them dicked off to somewhere else or died. Tamriel Ian's might fear something like that happening to them. Also, magic tends to really make most machines obsolete, like you don't need electricity to power shit when you can just call up an electromancer
  • February 9, 2018

    Karver the Lorc said: Currently not in position to post a long comment, will return later. But for now I'd like to adress how everyone is saying that Dwemer were the most advanced. They were, but not in the way you can compare it to our world. The world of TES is a Dream, a Song, and Dwemer learned how to manipulate the song with sound. Tonal Architecture. All their creations are magic but more than magic. Nords have Tonal Architecture too, and that is Thu'um. Redguards? Sword-Singing. Bosmer? Spinners of Valenwood. The only difference is that Dwemer were much more clever in their use of Tonal Architecture than others. And everything is pretty much repeating. Not as much as stasis but as a change and un-change.

     

    Exactly. Even the "technology" of the ES universe is fantastic in that it's rooted firmly in that world's rules and not our own. Study the world around us and you learn about energy and matter and use it in engineering and chemistry. Study Mundus and you learn about the effects of sound and conflict and develop tonal architecture and shadow magic. If you liken the Dwemer Automatons to our machinery then you'd also have to draw a similar parallel between Thu'um and chemistry. The Graybeards are scientists and learning (and even developing their own) Thu'ums is the technological advancement you'll see in Skyrim.

     

  • February 9, 2018

    There are a few big misconceptions about the Medieval times here in Europe. These times were far from stagnant and in actuality, a lot of discoveries were made during this time. The big differences between the post-renaissance eras and the Medieval era as far as progress is concerned can probably be listed as follows:

    Heh, I was generalizing a little bit because I didn't really think anyone would want me to get into a super detailed historical rant in a TES thread :P But yeah, it's unfair to say that nothing was discovered or anything, and there's a reason that technically speaking Historians aren't supposed to refer to it as the Dark Ages anymore. It's more accurate to say that there was a massive 'loss' of technology, that we lost (for hundreds of years) ancient styles of architecture from the times of the Ancient Greeks, to some of the more complicated military tactics to thousands of sources of knowledge. It's actually rather fascinating how often some of the most famous historians from Rome/Greece, early CE and how often they'll reference stuff that just doesn't exist anymore.

    But yeah, bit of a generalization earlier and I still will not allow anyone to make me re-write any of my essays on the 'Dark Ages' :P Especially not to respond to a TES based thing.

     

     

    In other thoughts. I think the explanation 'because magic' seems pretty fair. With magic, there just isn't a need for a lot of different technologies and when you think about it the Dwemer creations that we see aren't even that great. Useful, but what's the point of spending decades/hundreds of years figuring out how to build Dwarven Spiders when you can hire guards that are better. There's nothing I've seen other than maybe the Tonal Locks that I would argue as generally useful for the general population...and even they're probably worse than regular locks because you can throw an apple at them and they'll move. 

    Even steam power probably isn't useful on the larger scale, because they've got magic for everything Steam can do. Yeah, 'because magic' is my answer.