Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions


What Types of Magic are Impossible?

  • January 1, 2018

    So, I was originally going to ask this in the Expeditions Committee, but really it's more discussion focused rather than just trying to be me asking a question. So I've been thinking recently, and a lot of universes have very set 'rules' of magic that will completely negate the possibility of some types of magic from existing. It's not all universes of course, I don't know if there's anything like that in D&D where imagination seems to be the only limiter, I mean you've got teleportation, necromancy, stopping time, weather control, maybe even matter creation all being possible. But, one example that's often just straight up impossible is fully returning someone to life, you can reanimate their bodies sure, but it's not entirely uncommon to have worlds where that's the extent of what you can do. Creation of Food/Matter is usually something else that's impossible, not always but sometimes.

    So it got me thinking...what's actually impossible for mortals in The Elder Scrolls? Obviovarious 'gods' have powers that transcend mortality, so we can just count them out for anything here, but out of what I can think of, I just can't think of many 'impossible' types of magic. So I pose the question...what types of magic are impossible in TES, or maybe we say 'eh close enough' if only a handful of people can do it.

  • Member
    January 1, 2018
    Big-scale creation and changes are off limits. For example, you can't just create yourself, say, a moon. Creating icicles in your hands is fine though As far as alterations go, you have (unexpectedly enough) alteration for that. Sure, you can cast a transmute ore spell, and change one type of metal into another, but only one chunk of it at a time. But not a hundred of them. Unless you're a CHIMster. Then you can just say 'fuck the rules' and convert a jungle province into one huge meadow. So it seems to be an issue of scale.
  • January 1, 2018

    Cannon said: Big-scale creation and changes are off limits. For example, you can't just create yourself, say, a moon. Creating icicles in your hands is fine though As far as alterations go, you have (unexpectedly enough) alteration for that. Sure, you can cast a transmute ore spell, and change one type of metal into another, but only one chunk of it at a time. But not a hundred of them. Unless you're a CHIMster. Then you can just say 'fuck the rules' and convert a jungle province into one huge meadow. So it seems to be an issue of scale.

    That being said, the Thalmor, if you believe what they say happened in the Void Nights, managed to make the moons appear again after two years of disappearence. And with the Razor, Camoran was able to cut himself a new form. His mother mother was a bosmer and yet he is, defying phylogeny, an altmer. Those are pretty big-scale changes. 

  • January 1, 2018

    Gah, Transmutation. Hate that spell. That spell shouldn't even exist and I'll outrightly say that Transmutation is actually that kind of magic that is impossible. In a way. Like, you could change the silver into gold, but only for a while. Why? Because Alteration is not permanent. The reality pushes back, the laws of Earthbones make sure they remain intact. Every Alteration spell that physicaly changes the reality will eventually revert back to normal. 

    And that is supported by Lore, while Transmutation isn't, because that spell appeared only in-game with no background or even a simple journal about it. 

    As for the Lore supporting that Transmutation is impossible in long term:

    "There is one last lesson I have to teach you," she said. "You must learn that desire is not enough. The world will end your spell no matter how good you are, and no matter how much you want it." Breathing Water)

    To cast Alteration spells is to convince a greater power that it will be easier to change reality as requested than to leave it alone. Do not assume that these forces are sentient. Our best guess is that they are like wind and water. Persistent but not thoughtful. Just like directing the wind or water, diversions are easier than outright resistance. Express the spell as a subtle change and it is more likely to be successful. Reality and Other Falsehoods

    Put these two together and you'll understand where I'm coming from. 

    Also, let's not forget the categories of mages. 

    Every mortal in Tamriel has the potential to use magic.

    •Some have very little potential: in-game terms we could apply the notion that most non-gifted mortals have a very small magicka pool. It would take a lot of time and effort to increase one's potency. With determination, intelligence, and money any average mortal could become an average-to-good mage. But social structure and societal norms are going to limit the average mortal.

    •Then there are those with greater-potential. The people have a larger magicka pool to draw from, and perhaps are naturally inclined towards a particular magickal principle or law. Again, personal traits will determine the individual's interest in magickal progression. Some adventures or bandits may find it useful to know a fire-spell for warmth and defense/attack. Perhaps an entertainer would like to dazzle and trick his audience with illusion. Magic is versatile. I would say most mages like court wizards and College-attenders fall in this category. They can be great mages, but not the best.

    •Lastly, there are the Heroes and Truly-Gifted. Heroes may not always choose a path of magicka, but they could do so, and become truly great. Likewise the greatest wizards and sorcerers of Tamriel were born with large-magicka pools and a will and intelligence intrinsically linked with the Magickal Nature of the Aurbis.

    All of this.

    Plus the Sun just pours that shit into your pores.

    So, yeah. What exactly are we talking about here, DB? What kind of magic are we talking about? Are we talking about regular magicka mage magic or super rare Tonal Architecture such as Swordsinging or Thu'um? Raw creatia fuckery, Dagonite cutting, shadow magic? I feel like you should really specify what exactly you mean. 

  • Member
    January 1, 2018
    The mother rule of phylogeny is not a 100 percent sure bet. There are exceptions, like with most of rules. If that's not the case, then you'd imagine that Mehrunes Dagon would give Mankar some unusual powers for such a faithful service. You're thinking of Camoran rulers of Valenwood, right? Maybe Camoran lineage was split was split during the elven exodus? And y'know, lore inconsistency is pretty common. And the moons? Likely a simple trick. Or at least a focused effort of many elves, not one. Or both. Remember that different types of Khajiit were still born during that period. So the influence of the moons must have still been there.
  • January 1, 2018

    Cannon said: The mother rule of phylogeny is not a 100 percent sure bet. There are exceptions, like with most of rules. If that's not the case, then you'd imagine that Mehrunes Dagon would give Mankar some unusual powers for such a faithful service. You're thinking of Camoran rulers of Valenwood, right? Maybe Camoran lineage was split was split during the elven exodus? And y'know, lore inconsistency is pretty common.

    Mankar Camoran was "allegedly" from the Camoran bloodline and what Lis is reffering to is that the book Refugees portrays the Mankar's mother as a Bosmer. And Bosmer + Bosmer certainly can't get you an Altmer. But the book is a fiction, so that is not set in the stone, ol' Camoran Usurper could have an Altmer mistress. But I think Lis was making the point mainly about the fact that Mankar used the Razor to cut his chidlren, Ruma and Raven, off him, which is big mojo. 

    Cannon said: And the moons? Likely a simple trick. Or at least a focused effort of many elves, not one. Or both. Remember that different types of Khajiit were still born during that period. So the influence of the moons must have still been there.

    No, I don't remember that different types of Khajiit were still born during that period. Source?

    'Cause if the moons define the shape of Khajiit and there are no moons then the Khajiit would take an unprecedented shapes or they would just die in the womb, which is the most logical "theory". Yes, "theory" we are in the lands of theories here. 

    Also, the Void Nights...I would like to just propose something else than "Thalmor did it" here and that is it was a natural event that Thalmor had nothing to do with and when it disappeared they just swooped in to take the credit for it, just like they did after Oblivion Crisis. Basicaly taking advantage of a natural event to win Khajiit on their side. 

    But, just for the sake of discussion, this is what MK has to say about Void Nights. 

    Eugenics experiment. With a side dish of "don't [censored] with us.

     

     

  • January 1, 2018

    Right, fair enough Karves. Not sure if I've got enough knowledge to list every exception to the rules, but I'll do my best. Doesn't help that I'm just not sure how 'sciencey' Elder Scrolls gets. For example, do we know exactly how Destruction Spells are made? My assumption here is it's just elemental manipulation (converting the air into streams of fire, chilling the air with magic until the Ice Storm forms and so on and so forth), or manipulating nature but if I'm wrong there then I'd love to read where it says differently.

    Anyway, the Thu'um is the easiest example. From what I understand, it's theoretically possible for anyone to learn how to shout. I mean, it's apparently ridiculously difficult and to learn it to any reasonable degree you have to study for decades, even Ulfric only really learned the basics of a few Words of Power from what I understand, and he was there for a fair while (when compared to how quickly you can pick up spells normally). What the Dragonborn does with the Thu'um is completely different, and is more based on the impossible (for normal people) ability to absorb a Dragon's Soul and assimilate that knowledge. You can't simply study and train and meditate to gain that ability, but you can learn how to use the Shouts themselves, it's just infinitely harder than for the DB.

    So the Dragonborn's powers would be considered 'impossible' by mortal standards. Sure you've got the minuscule possibility of being born Dragonborn, but it's not anything that can be controlled outside of a Divine giving you that power. So absorbing Dragon Souls is considered (by my standards) to be impossible.

     

    I suppose here, that by 'Possible Magic' what I mean is something that someone can learn. It might take them ten, twenty, one-hundred years to learn it, but it's still something that a normal person could reasonably be able to learn. My current list of 'impossible magic' is the following

    Matter Creation (I'm going to leave Transmutation in even though personally, I agree with your take that it should be impossible.) or the idea of creating something from nothing.

    Having Infinite Magicka (everyone has a limit, even if it's not something that's logical) and possibly even being able to wield an infinite amount of Magicka at one time. I can't entirely think of an example, but my assumption is that there simply has to be a maximum for everything. 

    Absorbing Dragon Souls (can you absorb any souls? I know you can trap them but can you absorb black/white souls like the Dragonborn can Dragon Souls).

     

     

    Dunno if that really helped. To be honest it's something that I'd probably have to plan out a hell of a lot more to really understand all my possible points of view. But I think I'm going with your second definition of a mage, with hints of the third. Just your everyday normal magic (though taken to the absolute max) with a few wildly learnable skills. Even if it's ridiculously hard, if it's something that people can learn without there being an explicit barrier (a special power/bloodline or something along those linees) then it's fine by my definiton as 'Possible Magic'

  • January 1, 2018

    Also, the Void Nights...I would like to just propose something else then "Thalmor did it" here and that is it was a natural event that Thalmor had nothing to do with and when it disappeared they just swooped in to take the credit for it, just like they did after Oblivion Crisis. Basicaly taking advantage of a natural event to win Khajiit on their side. 

    I pretty much agree with that. That said, I'm also sort of imagining the idea of the Thalmor having a wizard around that can 'fix moons' as a power and that's sort of hilarious :P But much more likely that the Thalmor did the ole 'hey that's something we can take credit for. Let's take credit for it' as a way to gain power over the Khajiit at a much faster rate than they could otherwise.

  • January 1, 2018

    Ok, I'll start with the Destruction part you have mentioned, okay? If you'll feel like doing a little bit of reading I think Grulmar might offer you a perspective on that in my Destruction Lessons, where I basicaly draw up the idea of thermodynamics, all that based on Mora'at's Theory of Lightning

    But alright, let's focus on the second category of mages, with straying little bit into the category of Divayth Fyr, Rynandor the Bold, Zurin Arctus legendary type mages.  

    So...Matter Creation. You say create something from nothing, but that is not exactly accurate in TES. Why? Magicka. Magicka is everywhere and in everything, it is what makes everything alive basicaly. To have nothing you would have to find...hmm. A space in between Magicka? But isn't that space made by magicka too if Magnus poures his shit into everything? But let's try an example. How about creating a sword from nothing? I say impossible. Of course, Swordsingers can form Shehai, but that is Tonal Architecture we're talking about.

    Infnite Magicka. Impossible. Simple as that. No matter how large your pool is you will always run out of the juice eventually. 

    Eating Souls. Okay, I'm going to try to explain why it is possible for Dragonborn to eat the souls of Dragons first. Dragons, yeah? Organic time machines coming from a whole that is Akatosh. Every dragon is a shard, or the souls are shards, and Dragonborn has one such shard. When dragon dies normally, the shard just remains inactive, but when Dragonborn (or Alduin or another dragon) kills the dragon, the shard becomes the part of the still active shard that ended it. Oversoul. Lol, I should have started with the oversoul thing first, hah. So yeah, the oversoul wants to be whole again, and the soul Dragon souls are like magnets that can draw the other souls to it, along with power and knowledge. As Arngeir says: 

    What does it mean to be "Dragonborn"? "Dragons have the inborn ability to learn and project their Voice. Dragons also are able to absorb the power of their slain brethren.

    As for regular Soul Absorb. What exactly are you imagining by that? Because you can soul trap someone in a soul gem and then use the soul gem to fuel your spells, using the magicka of the soul in the soul gem instead of yours - think Oblivion's Welkynd Stones. Or are we talking about two souls merging into one as in Dragonborn's case? Well, now we're getting into Enantiomorph and Oversoul thing again. Or are we talking ripping out souls and eating them like a supper thing? :)

  • Member
    January 1, 2018
    Well, I think that if no Khajiit were born over the course of two years then there'd be at least a slight mention of it being a thing. And I don't remember coming across such a mention. Making children out of yourself is a concept older than Oblivion. Remember Divayth Fyr and his daughter-wives? As far as welkynd stones go, they don't contain souls. And absorbing dragon souls? Is it exclusively DB thing? Can other dragons absorb souls of their fellow flying lizards?