Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions


Lore Discussion: Pelinal Whitestrake

  • July 31, 2017

    I don't mind this if you need to think of it that way. :D I am more reductionist by nature (hehe, you brought up that one) and I don't need to account for the warrior. I don't actually understand why he needs to be warrior at all. He can fill the warrior role if he wants to, he can fill lover, atronach, mage, thief.  Being the serpent, lets him do just that, so in essence, the actual signs no longer matter. He is whatever role needs to be filled for whatever is being done. If he needs to be maimed, he'd be the observing mage, if he needs to fight, he'll be the warrior. Sorry, just shooting examples. Somebody like a Pelinal or a Ysmir is a "hero" and therefore can assume any role as it fits. Like how TLD can touch all the Standing Stones or the Champion can touch all Doomstones, be a member of every faction, you get what I'm saying. I think it's the serpent or connection to the serpent that lets that happen to some extent. From what I understand of the lore, it's what the serpent does. It mantles a month and shows up instead of the other. It makes sense to me that a person born under that would have characteristics of one or both signs. 

     

  • Member
    July 31, 2017
    Ha! Reductionism struck a nerve :D Apologies, no offence was meant, it's just that I like to see the bigger picture before the summary, see how it works each part works before reducing it to something more digestible. I devour, then vomit. The problem I am still having is that the Serpent shows up at random in a month, as you say, but this is always seen as a threat. That makes total sense from a merish perspective, but I can't think of a single instance when, in celestial terms, this has ever been welcomed. Considering that the shezarrine is often a hero - TLD, Ysmir, Pelinal etc - by now the Serpent and the shezarrine should have been connected and rejoiced: "Our saviour is come." Yet that hasn't happened and the Serpent remains a vilified figure by everyone. On the Shezarrine = Warrior thing, that is only because of the Ysmir = Warrior connection, and that the role of Thief is taken. It would make more sense for Pel to be the Mage, but it doesn't resonate and I can't put my finger on why. I am happy enough for it to remain interpretive, and the fluidity of it delights me as I have no need to pin it down for a project. However, it does interest me and I always enjoy reading fresh perspectives on this subject :)
  • July 31, 2017

    No, it didn't, so don't worry, Phil. I am not offended. I always try to reduce things to their most elemental components. You and I have had many conversations where I take your details and then paint one big brush stroke over it. You know I even got my theories that all this multiple gods thing is bullshit and all this is just multiple retellings of the same cosmic love triangle or that there is even only one. When I recover from my self-imposed caffeine withdrawal, I will try to research in my brain as to why the snake is still villified. I think there is a good reason for it, and it ties into the ideas of what can possibly happen if one realizes their spiritual journey into transcendence. Or it ties into the idea that the snake has been associated with Orkey. 

    It is definitely easy to explain from an Elven perspective, but I can't help but think I'm missing something very obvious that would tie it in well to the human perspective. There is also the pesky Nordic notion that Shor is the fox in the totems and not the snake, but do you all remember a time when the totems indicated that he was snake?  It was before the sources changed. I remember actually looking at the pantheon one day and seeing snake for lorkhan and then one day I see fox. And lol, now I check the site again and haha, it's back to being snake. *rolls eyes* I think there is a reason for this.

    Now, in ES Lore, there is a wee book for a puzzle. 

    Puzzle: The first fears all, the second fears none.

    The third eats what it can, preferably number one.

    The fourth fears the second, but only when alone.

    All must be activated in order, if you wish to go home.

    The first is snake. Third eats the first. Fox eats snake. Foxes also frequently chase their tails. Could it be that... The snake represents Lorkhan's failed attempt and all the destruction that stems from it. The "teaching" attempt I like to call it sometimes.  And the fox is something he morphs into to represent the continued attempts? Fox eats snake. Fox absorbs snake. Fox mantles snake or snake mantles fox. Or the snake and the fox represent the duality. 

    Lol, I'm not making any sense. 

  • Member
    August 1, 2017

    Lissette Long-Chapper said:

    No, it didn't, so don't worry, Phil. I am not offended. I always try to reduce things to their most elemental components. You and I have had many conversations where I take your details and then paint one big brush stroke over it. You know I even got my theories that all this multiple gods thing is bullshit and all this is just multiple retellings of the same cosmic love triangle or that there is even only one. When I recover from my self-imposed caffeine withdrawal, I will try to research in my brain as to why the snake is still villified. I think there is a good reason for it, and it ties into the ideas of what can possibly happen if one realizes their spiritual journey into transcendence. Or it ties into the idea that the snake has been associated with Orkey. 

    It is definitely easy to explain from an Elven perspective, but I can't help but think I'm missing something very obvious that would tie it in well to the human perspective. There is also the pesky Nordic notion that Shor is the fox in the totems and not the snake, but do you all remember a time when the totems indicated that he was snake?  It was before the sources changed. I remember actually looking at the pantheon one day and seeing snake for lorkhan and then one day I see fox. And lol, now I check the site again and haha, it's back to being snake. *rolls eyes* I think there is a reason for this.

    Now, in ES Lore, there is a wee book for a puzzle. 

    Puzzle: The first fears all, the second fears none.

    The third eats what it can, preferably number one.

    The fourth fears the second, but only when alone.

    All must be activated in order, if you wish to go home.

    The first is snake. Third eats the first. Fox eats snake. Foxes also frequently chase their tails. Could it be that... The snake represents Lorkhan's failed attempt and all the destruction that stems from it. The "teaching" attempt I like to call it sometimes.  And the fox is something he morphs into to represent the continued attempts? Fox eats snake. Fox absorbs snake. Fox mantles snake or snake mantles fox. Or the snake and the fox represent the duality. 

    Lol, I'm not making any sense. 

    I am glad to hear that, and also a little taken aback that you cared about my details. I just tend to ramble on, you know? Always assumed people get bored :D

    That theory is sound, every god(dess) and demon can be said to be aspects formed from the original Interplay, and that story is the one that echoes down through those subgradients. Like, Anu, Padomay and Nir have their thing, and the next rung down on the ladder we see it retold in the Magnus and Lorkhan saga, and then again in the Lorkhan, Auriel, and Trinimac saga, and again with Alessia, King Hrol, and the poor shield-thane... So it works, and it is quite a tragic love story.

    We call the mirror the enantiomorph, and I am still undecided if that is what is going on with our three heroes of the Slave Rebellion. I don't think it quite qualifies, but still, interesting that the number three is present and that the stars are very much involved.

    You are making sense, too, with your snake/fox thing. Back before TES V and when we first saw the Talos statue slaying the Serpent, it was a bit confusing. If Talos was lorkhan, why was he killing it? But when we factor in that spiritual transcendence, that snake-slaying seems appropriate. It is still very much interpretive, could be that it represents Talos' ascension and a metaphorical pinning time down vs the merish desire to have time non-linear, or it could be Wulfhaarth and Talos being amalgamated into one being, the snake being Orkey and representing the legend of Five Songs.

    Or it could be something like how the Fox takes on the Serpent - that duality. As in, the Fox is the Shezarrine, the Serpent the body of Lorkhan and so soul overcoming body... mental.

    I think that latter ties nicely into the puzzle you refer to.

  • Member
    August 1, 2017
    Speaking of Padomaic heroes. I was wondering why there are so many of them yet so few to almost none Anuic heroes. If understand correctly, the world of TES consists of two colliding forces, Order and Chaos, Stasis and Change. If there Padomaic heroes, shouldn't there be Anuic heroes that counteract them?
  • August 1, 2017
    Hmm. Fox eats Snake, Fox chases its own tail. One and one eleven if you get my meaning. Also, Snake. Snake is seen as somewhat an enemy in almost every TES corner. A trying sign, a failing sign, a tricking sign. Look at Sep. Tries and fails. Lorkhan? Tricks, than tries and fails. Orkey? Another trial god, of sorts. So when there is Serpent there is some sort of trick, trial and fail. Serpent sheds his skin and starts anew. Fox eating Serpent could easily represent Shezzarine trying to break that cycle.
  • August 1, 2017
    @Kaiser How so? Morihaus, Alessia, Reman, Talos, then you have Hundings from the Redguard side, Makela Leki, Diagna, Shinji. And the elves? Those are slightly different because their heroes were gods. The whole old Aldmeri pantheon. Trinimac, Phynaster, Xarxes, Syrabane, Jephre. That's actually quite a lot.
  • Member
    August 1, 2017
    Ah crap, how could I forget about those. *hides in shame* :/ Talos being Anuic? But I thought he was Padomaic, unless he's one of those duality types.
  • August 1, 2017
    Well, it's open to interpretation. But Hjalti or Tiber first, yeah? So Kirkbride in his Sword-Meeting of Cyrus and Tiber portrayed the Emperor as "talking hurricane." Shout. So it's sort of a OOG comfirmation Tiber really was Dragonborn. And Dragonborn is Akatosh's bitch, right? Now, Talos. He mantles Lorkhan, which makes it very difficult, but look at it from humans perspection. Is he a Divine? And Divines are Aedra, Anuic. So as I said, matter of interpretation. For Altmer he'll be Padomaic, for Imperials and Nords Anuic.
  • Member
    August 1, 2017

    The Lorc of Flowers said: Hmm. Fox eats Snake, Fox chases its own tail. One and one eleven if you get my meaning. Also, Snake. Snake is seen as somewhat an enemy in almost every TES corner. A trying sign, a failing sign, a tricking sign. Look at Sep. Tries and fails. Lorkhan? Tricks, than tries and fails. Orkey? Another trial god, of sorts. So when there is Serpent there is some sort of trick, trial and fail. Serpent sheds his skin and starts anew. Fox eating Serpent could easily represent Shezzarine trying to break that cycle.

    In this case, is he trying to break the cycle? Everything seems to point to the opposite, like how even though the Towers fall, up pops a Shezarrine and renders their destruction moot, or interpretivley so at any rate. I don't know if that is Lorkhan fighting against the wishes of Aka, or if they share the same goal when a Dragonborn is also a Shezarrine. In the Alessian myth, she ascends and there is an implication that both Aka and Shezarr share that goal, both being there at her death. The fall of White Gold comes much later, the myth telling us that the gods themselves were on the side of freedom when they saw and liked the idea.

    I guess Shezarr has always been about freedom, as you say, he fails so that others can succeed. His twin's motives are sometimes more mysterious - which fits when one part of him wants to eat the world, another wants to go back to the timelessness of spirit, while yet another wants to maintain the mannish perspective of the here and now.

    Which sort of nicely links to Kaiser's...

    KaiserSoSay said: Speaking of Padomaic heroes. I was wondering why there are so many of them yet so few to almost none Anuic heroes. If understand correctly, the world of TES consists of two colliding forces, Order and Chaos, Stasis and Change. If there Padomaic heroes, shouldn't there be Anuic heroes that counteract them?

    The Padomaic vs Anuic thing gets cloudy, it's like a simpler way of expressing the gradients. The "blood" of Padomay became demons, and the blood of Anu became stars, while the mixed blood of both became something we call the gods. Mortals are of that last batch of blood, supposedly descended from the gods - the gods > Ehlnofey > mortals, represented in mythic language.

    But to more adequately address it, the Padomaic heroes are quite singular in that Lorkhan is quite the mutant aberration. It's only he of all the et'ada that gets so much freedom but yet such a large cage. By having been "cursed to walk for many phases" or having his divininty become part of the world, he isn't tied down like the gods, or as powerless to change Mundus as the demons.

    This is by design, no doubt, what he wanted. Myth tells us how he laughs even when having his heart removed and shot over the sea. 

    The Anuic heroes, then, are mortal champions like Alessia, or Martin Septim, chosen by the gods to act on their behalf. Whereas Shezarr can appear in a mortal and have much more agency than the gods themselves.