Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions


Lore Discussion: Pelinal Whitestrake

  • Member
    July 26, 2017

    Lissette Long-Chapper said:

    Don't worry, Phil, got you covered. Just continue to read Straag. :P

    Oh so it was Phil who has been helping you in making those scenes. I should've known...

     

  • Member
    July 26, 2017

    The Lorc of Flowers said: What was the sentence MK said? Tell the god's story, tell the farmer's story and then listen to what the dog has to say? This is precisely the example. It is a myth, but there's always an ounce of truth in every story right? It's like...I'm not saying I don't believe the myth, but I'm also not saying I believe it either, you know? Which is why I find it so compelling because there is a truth behind a truth and we know the truth is subjective. Like...let's find an Ayleid and ask him how it all went down, right? And isn't it interesting how Shezzarine and Dragonborn in most cases get drawn to each other? And Alessia eating whole lot of dick...well, she had to keep her army "straight" somehow, didn't she? :D

    Keeping them straight was necessary, apparently. What was that MK quote about Huna who Pelinal loved well? Points for he or she who can find that source, but it was talking about how in the original draft the Whitestrake was gay, but because the player in effect mantles him in TES IV, they felt it was ssafer not to ascribe him a sexuality.

    It would be great to read the Ayleid pov, that would round us out and trly give us the dog's story :D

    Lissette Long-Chapper said:

    Oh, I have no grounds of proof, but I think Morihause, Pelinal, and Alessia slept with each other and Pelly was definitely more than just an uncle to Morihaus. Achilles had both wife and male lover. Yes, that is Greek culture and we're talking Tamriel, but much of lore is based on actual cultural references and to me, Song of Pelinal reads in many ways like a good old-fashioned Homeric Epic. 

    Your instincts were right as it turns out. There are new volumes of the Song (i have only found one and need help :( ) and this dialogue suggests thaat there is translation issues :D

    KaiserSoSay said:

    Man, ESO is seriously bringing out the canon erotica with each new content. :P

    So Pelinal, yeah. This guy is like the most complicated character of complicated complications. Guy's a hero, an ax-crazy blood knight, and a cyborg from the future (if you believe MK's work) all at once. I haven't really gotten into the whole Shezzarine connection, but when I read through The Song of Pelinal, I can see some metaphysical references. 

    Padomay, Change, and Madness. Those three words are what I could think off whenever I read The Song of Pelinal. 

    P.S. Has anyone been noticing a trend here in Elder Scrolls between Queens and multiple lovers?

     

    Huh, that's spot on. Queens like their D, I guess. I will not now look at Ayrenn in the same way...

    Kais, do you want to flesh out the cyborg thing? Also, yeah too true with those Padomaic references and the Shezarrine connection.

    Chris said:

    So she had threeways with our battle-boner bull and our Star-Made Knight? Damn, now I wanna write a fic about that. Are sex fics allowed here? 

    I've been barking up that tree for years myself :D

  • July 27, 2017

    So if Alessia had sex with a Minotaur would that be considered Zooaphila or only half Zooaphila? And am I the only one that finds that weird?

    I think Whitestrake was a Shezzarine sent by Shezzar/Shor to help defeat the Ayelids and other elves since Elves are the enemy of Men. If Alessia did have sex with Whitestrake would that mean that their child would be half of a Divine? It is weird that he is called "Star Made Knight" because the Ayelids were obsessed with the stars and how to harness their power because it was the purest and/or strongest form of Light, one of the five elements they believed made Nirn.

    As for the Queens and even Kings having multiple lovers, that is easy to explain. Look at real life Monarchs or even Emperors in the past they would a wife and several concubines. So maybe in the ES world, a Queen could have a husband and concubines, or whatever the male version of a concubine is.

    Actually, thinking about it this actually opens another question. Most concubines were either handmaidens/slaves of the wife of the king, and Alessia was a slave before freeing Man from the Ayelid, so could Alessia been a concubine to an Ayelid king or whatever?

  • Member
    July 28, 2017

    The Last Blade said:

    So if Alessia had sex with a Minotaur would that be considered Zooaphila or only half Zooaphila? And am I the only one that finds that weird?

    I think Whitestrake was a Shezzarine sent by Shezzar/Shor to help defeat the Ayelids and other elves since Elves are the enemy of Men. If Alessia did have sex with Whitestrake would that mean that their child would be half of a Divine? It is weird that he is called "Star Made Knight" because the Ayelids were obsessed with the stars and how to harness their power because it was the purest and/or strongest form of Light, one of the five elements they believed made Nirn.

    As for the Queens and even Kings having multiple lovers, that is easy to explain. Look at real life Monarchs or even Emperors in the past they would a wife and several concubines. So maybe in the ES world, a Queen could have a husband and concubines, or whatever the male version of a concubine is.

    Actually, thinking about it this actually opens another question. Most concubines were either handmaidens/slaves of the wife of the king, and Alessia was a slave before freeing Man from the Ayelid, so could Alessia been a concubine to an Ayelid king or whatever?

    I like this a lot, and have thoughts.

    To start with, I guess we need to look at whether Morihaus was a minotaur or an actual bull. Luckily, we have done that already in this Legendary Figures: Morihaus :D But no, you're not the only one who thinks it's weird, although in Alessia's defence if a demi-god of winds came down in response to her prayer he must be pretty fascinating to her. Whatever the circumstances of their romance, the race of minotaurs were born:

    ...the Whitestrake did warn against the growing love with Perrif. "We are ada, Mor, and change things through love. We must take care lest we beget more monsters on this earth. If you do not desist, she will take to you, and you will transform all Cyrod if you do this."

    The implications of this led to a question posed to MK on the subject, to which he replied:

     "Minotaurs are the issue of Alessia and Mor Breath-of-Kyne."

    At the time of writing that article on Morihaus, the only evidence to support the idea that minotaurs were the get of Alessia and Mor came from the Song of Pelinal and Mk's oog quotes. When researching the subject for Tein's Mysterium Bestia event, I came across newer sources which are detailed and linked to in Minotaurs: A Pilgrims Diary. Sorry, I have a particular fascination with Mor, Al-Esh and Minotaurs, and the role they played in shaping the Empire. So I am at risk of boring folks on the subject.

    I'm glad you mentioned starlight and its importance in Ayleid culture. The Song has a couple references to it:

    ...the Pelinal became surrounded by the last Ayleid sorcerer-kings and their demons, each one heavy with varliance. The Whitestrake cracked the floor with his mace and they withdrew, and he said, "Bring me Umaril that called me out!"

    More soldiers were sent against Pelinal to die, and yet they managed to pierce his armor with axes and arrows, for Umaril had wrought each one by long varliance, which he had been hoarding since his first issue [of challenge.]

    Naryu's Journal among other sources tell us what "varliance" means:

    Back at the Serpent and Senche, I spent some time studying her journal. It related what she’d been able to discover about the legend of the Aurbical Abacus, a relic created by the ancient Yokudans to track the movements of the moons, constellations, and planets and calculate the exact turn of the seasons. It detected the directional origin of star-magicka, or “varliance,” and stored it as data.

    So it is odd that Pelly would be called the Star-Made Knight from an Ayleid perspective, but from our perspective I like to think less so. Alessia's Birthsign is the Thief, Mor's is the Lord. As a Shezarrine, Pelinal could have been the Warrior. There's something quite poetic about the stars themselves coming down to fight in the slave rebellion, doubly so when we factor in the Nedes (of whom Alessia was one), Celestials, and how the conestellations vanished from the sky. So in that context, Star-Made Knight could mean he was literally the stars, or associated with.

    Ok so, concubines or the male equivalent of. I love that thought! And what's more there is a quest in ESO's Malabal Tor zone in which we meet an Ayleid noble who had slaves... damn, my memory of the details fades. But i filed it away at the time as being possibly relevant to an Alessian discussion. There's something in it about queens or concubines that I found interesting. Anyone know of what I bang on about?

    Regardless, she was able to rise up and lead an army. It could be she was already a figure in high-standing and thus able to do it easier as you imply.

  • July 28, 2017

    Paws said:

    I like this a lot, and have thoughts.

    To start with, I guess we need to look at whether Morihaus was a minotaur or an actual bull. Luckily, we have done that already in this Legendary Figures: Morihaus :D But no, you're not the only one who thinks it's weird, although in Alessia's defence if a demi-god of winds came down in response to her prayer he must be pretty fascinating to her. Whatever the circumstances of their romance, the race of minotaurs were born:

    ...the Whitestrake did warn against the growing love with Perrif. "We are ada, Mor, and change things through love. We must take care lest we beget more monsters on this earth. If you do not desist, she will take to you, and you will transform all Cyrod if you do this."

    The implications of this led to a question posed to MK on the subject, to which he replied:

     "Minotaurs are the issue of Alessia and Mor Breath-of-Kyne."

    At the time of writing that article on Morihaus, the only evidence to support the idea that minotaurs were the get of Alessia and Mor came from the Song of Pelinal and Mk's oog quotes. When researching the subject for Tein's Mysterium Bestia event, I came across newer sources which are detailed and linked to in Minotaurs: A Pilgrims Diary. Sorry, I have a particular fascination with Mor, Al-Esh and Minotaurs, and the role they played in shaping the Empire. So I am at risk of boring folks on the subject.

    I'm glad you mentioned starlight and its importance in Ayleid culture. The Song has a couple references to it:

    ...the Pelinal became surrounded by the last Ayleid sorcerer-kings and their demons, each one heavy with varliance. The Whitestrake cracked the floor with his mace and they withdrew, and he said, "Bring me Umaril that called me out!"

    More soldiers were sent against Pelinal to die, and yet they managed to pierce his armor with axes and arrows, for Umaril had wrought each one by long varliance, which he had been hoarding since his first issue [of challenge.]

    Naryu's Journal among other sources tell us what "varliance" means:

    Back at the Serpent and Senche, I spent some time studying her journal. It related what she’d been able to discover about the legend of the Aurbical Abacus, a relic created by the ancient Yokudans to track the movements of the moons, constellations, and planets and calculate the exact turn of the seasons. It detected the directional origin of star-magicka, or “varliance,” and stored it as data.

    So it is odd that Pelly would be called the Star-Made Knight from an Ayleid perspective, but from our perspective I like to think less so. Alessia's Birthsign is the Thief, Mor's is the Lord. As a Shezarrine, Pelinal could have been the Warrior. There's something quite poetic about the stars themselves coming down to fight in the slave rebellion, doubly so when we factor in the Nedes (of whom Alessia was one), Celestials, and how the conestellations vanished from the sky. So in that context, Star-Made Knight could mean he was literally the stars, or associated with.

    Ok so, concubines or the male equivalent of. I love that thought! And what's more there is a quest in ESO's Malabal Tor zone in which we meet an Ayleid noble who had slaves... damn, my memory of the details fades. But i filed it away at the time as being possibly relevant to an Alessian discussion. There's something in it about queens or concubines that I found interesting. Anyone know of what I bang on about?

    Regardless, she was able to rise up and lead an army. It could be she was already a figure in high-standing and thus able to do it easier as you imply.

    Thanks, and I love how I said one little thing and you replied with like four paragraphs.

    If a demi-god of the Winds came down as a Bull or a minotaur then that God has a weird fetish, that is all I am saying. No problem, any bit of Lore I can learn is never boring.

    I don't think Whitestrake was the Warrior, I would think he was the Serpent, and Mor should have been the Mage, not the Lord because the Warrior, the Mage, and the Thief are the ones who protect Nirn and the stars from the Serpent. The Lord is one of the charges of the Warrior. So Whitestrake could literally have been the Serpent constellation come real, and since the Serpent is often associated with Lorkhan, who is Shor/Shezzar to Man, he came down to help defeat the Elves, the race he hates.

    The concubine thing is just a theory I have because of my studies of real world civilizations, but if there is some support behind this ESO, then that would great.

  • Member
    July 29, 2017

    The Last Blade said:

    Thanks, and I love how I said one little thing and you replied with like four paragraphs.

    If a demi-god of the Winds came down as a Bull or a minotaur then that God has a weird fetish, that is all I am saying. No problem, any bit of Lore I can learn is never boring.

    I don't think Whitestrake was the Warrior, I would think he was the Serpent, and Mor should have been the Mage, not the Lord because the Warrior, the Mage, and the Thief are the ones who protect Nirn and the stars from the Serpent. The Lord is one of the charges of the Warrior. So Whitestrake could literally have been the Serpent constellation come real, and since the Serpent is often associated with Lorkhan, who is Shor/Shezzar to Man, he came down to help defeat the Elves, the race he hates.

    The concubine thing is just a theory I have because of my studies of real world civilizations, but if there is some support behind this ESO, then that would great.

    I can only apologise, Blade. Sometimes I get carried away, and everyone else here has long ago been bored by me :D 

    But yes! Weird fetishes. We like them, and now I cannot wait to get started on the subject of the Shonni-Etta.

    Ok, so you raise a very good point about the birthsigns. The reason I picked warrior for Pelinal is because, as you pointed out, the dude's a Shezarrine. Another famous incarnation of Shor is Ysmir, Dragon of the North. We know from a book called Ysmir the Forefather that he (possibly) became the warrior:

    And Ysmir summoned all of his champions and housecarls and told them how he was intent to end his life by ascending to the sky. And all of them, every one, agreed to follow him to the place where the boy led.

    And when they reached the place, they found as the boy promised, a single stone. And Ysmir, who was by now very old, laid at the foot of the stone and was taken up into the stars.

    The champions and housecarls looked up into the heavens and saw their king, the great Warrior, riding across the sky. And he was accompanied by three servants, a Lord, his Lady, and his mighty Steed.

    However, that doesn't ruin too much, for the Charges can take the place of the Guardians. We know Alessia was The Thief (the thief takes the tower) and Mor The Lord...

    Alessia, the First Empress, is traditionally associated with the constellation of The Thief, while her consort Morihaus took as his device the constellation of The Lord, and wore the Lord's Mail ~ Songs of the Stars

    ... So that just leaves the Mage under represented here. Within the enantiomorph, we sometimes come across far better scholars than I talk about "collapsing waveforms." This is like the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in quantum mechanics in which it is impossible to know a particle's location and velocity at the same time. It is only after the fact can we assign a value to either. In this case, when an enantiomorph is happening, the three figures of mage, thief, and warrior become interchangeable - by that I mean that any of the three heroes could fill any of those roles.

    If it even were an enantiomorph. In all cases, there must be a maimed observer (the mage) and I think it's Pelinal in this instance as he was the one to die, and we'll turn to the Adabal-a (the Song's spiritual sister) for that:

    And in the blood-floored throne room of White-Gold, the severed head of Pelinal spoke to the winged-bull, Morihaus, demigod lover of Al-Esh, saying, "Our enemies have undone me, and spread my body into hiding. In mockery of divine purpose, the Ayleids cut me into eighths, for they are obsessed with this number."

    And Morihaus, confused, snorted through his ring, saying, "Your crusades went beyond her counsel, Whitestrake, but I am a bull, and therefore reckless in my wit. I think I would go and gore our prisoners if you had left any alive. You are blood-made-glorious, uncle, and will come again, as fox animal or light. Cyrod is still ours."

    Then Pelinal spoke again for the last time: "Beware, Morihaus, beware! With the foresight of death I know now that my foe yet lives, bitter knowledge to take to my grave. Better that I had died believing myself the victor. Although cast beyond the doors of night, he will return. Be vigilant! I can no longer shield the host of Men from Umaril's retribution.

    Have I just gotten boring again? Pelly as the warrior makes sense from the Ysmir/Shezarrine connection, but as he was the one to witness and die, it could be that for this event he played the Mage's role. But does this count as an enantiomorph? There was an apotheosis at which moment the Time Dragon and the Space God were reunited and at peace with one another -  a very, very rare event imo... For Pelinal says:

    "... and left you to gather sinew with my other half, who will bring light thereby to that mortal idea that brings [the Gods] great joy, that is, freedom, which even the Heavens do not truly know, [which is] why our Father, the... [Text lost]... in those first [days/spirits/swirls] before Convention... that which we echoed in our earthly madness. [Let us] now take you Up. We will [show] our true faces... [which eat] one another in amnesia each Age."

  • July 29, 2017

    Okay guys, think about it this way. He is the serpent. Why? 

    Because he takes various roles at various times and is that not precisely what the serpent does in its journey through the sky? It overshadows another constellation. Yes, one day, Pelinal can be Warrior, one day mage, one day Thief, one day Lord, one day lover. He is all these things and fundamentally it is the idea of the Shezzarine no? I think in trying to peg Pelinal to one sign, you are overlooking something very obvious. 

    As one sign, he is now all of them if you understand my meaning. The serpent has no charges. 

  • Member
    July 29, 2017

    I totally get that interpretation, it resonates in an as above, so below sort of way. The Serpent wanders as does the soul of the Lorkhan figure. In the context of the Serpent threatening the Guardians, we can possibly see some Aldmeri influence and anti-Shor sentiments, but "threatening" could also be switched to something more like "mantling," if we step away from that merish mindset.

    That said, there's something about it that doesn't quite fit from my point of view. When the Serpent comes up, there is also mention of something called the Void Ghost, which is a concept I haven't wrapped my head around or applied myself to trying to any great degree. This Void Ghost is more like Lorkhan than the actual Serpent which is vilified in almost every culture, including those ones who are more pro-Shor. So it's like the Serpent is the corpse, ever hungry and devouring, but also mindless. The Ghost is the one that mirrors Lorkhan... I think. And I really do need to study that thing more, but until we can get a handle on it, considering the Serpent as Lorkhan seems a reductionism. In many ways the Serpent seems more like an impending doom, something bad to be feared like a monster in a bedtime story.

    That concept totally fits an anti-man perspective, but just seems incongruous when we see it in Cyrodiilic povs. So yeah, it works fine short term. There's just something nagging at me saying we are overlooking an important factor. Also, apologies if this is a wall of text. Mobile, will edit ASAP.

  • July 31, 2017

    Paws said:

    I totally get that interpretation, it resonates in an as above, so below sort of way. The Serpent wanders as does the soul of the Lorkhan figure. In the context of the Serpent threatening the Guardians, we can possibly see some Aldmeri influence and anti-Shor sentiments, but "threatening" could also be switched to something more like "mantling," if we step away from that merish mindset.

    That said, there's something about it that doesn't quite fit from my point of view. When the Serpent comes up, there is also mention of something called the Void Ghost, which is a concept I haven't wrapped my head around or applied myself to trying to any great degree. This Void Ghost is more like Lorkhan than the actual Serpent which is vilified in almost every culture, including those ones who are more pro-Shor. So it's like the Serpent is the corpse, ever hungry and devouring, but also mindless. The Ghost is the one that mirrors Lorkhan... I think. And I really do need to study that thing more, but until we can get a handle on it, considering the Serpent as Lorkhan seems a reductionism. In many ways the Serpent seems more like an impending doom, something bad to be feared like a monster in a bedtime story.

    That concept totally fits an anti-man perspective, but just seems incongruous when we see it in Cyrodiilic povs. So yeah, it works fine short term. There's just something nagging at me saying we are overlooking an important factor. Also, apologies if this is a wall of text. Mobile, will edit ASAP.

    Well, isn't the end of the world just a bad thing in general? Regardless of your race? Except the Altmer though, perhaps they want it. Who knows?  I think the serpent symbolizes "ill omen" not necessarily bad. In addition, those with the sign are "most blessed and most cursed." Fits Pelly to the teeth, if you ask me.  lol  I personally think he needs to have both creative and destructive elements. There are gods in our modern culture that have both creation and destruction elements. 

    And also look at Pelly's actions with the Khajiit, lordy, Paws, if that wasn't "ever hungry and devouring, but also mindless" in its savagery, I don't know what is. 

    Also, the snake is associated with the ouroboros, the symbol of infinity. Look at the ESO symbol, it is a corrupted ouroboros. Infinite conflict. Let's thing about circles. They are like wheels, no? The serpent, greatly symplified, I know, but I am actually all for reductionism. Anyway, back to my serpent. The serpent can be circular, the wheel.  It can also be straight, the "I". 

    I'm not really disagreeing with you. I think Pelly as serpent can make a lot of sense. Perhaps also incorporating that duality with the Void Ghost. 

    Lorkhan's failure sent his consciousness adrift as an entity known as the Void Ghost that resides within the hidden The Serpent constellation where he tries to continue his goal of helping others reach states that exist beyond CHIM.[8][OOG 9]

     

  • Member
    July 31, 2017

    Lissette Long-Chapper said:

    Well, isn't the end of the world just a bad thing in general? Regardless of your race? Except the Altmer though, perhaps they want it. Who knows?  I think the serpent symbolizes "ill omen" not necessarily bad. In addition, those with the sign are "most blessed and most cursed." Fits Pelly to the teeth, if you ask me.  lol  I personally think he needs to have both creative and destructive elements. There are gods in our modern culture that have both creation and destruction elements. 

    And also look at Pelly's actions with the Khajiit, lordy, Paws, if that wasn't "ever hungry and devouring, but also mindless" in its savagery, I don't know what is. 

    Also, the snake is associated with the ouroboros, the symbol of infinity. Look at the ESO symbol, it is a corrupted ouroboros. Infinite conflict. Let's thing about circles. They are like wheels, no? The serpent, greatly symplified, I know, but I am actually all for reductionism. Anyway, back to my serpent. The serpent can be circular, the wheel.  It can also be straight, the "I". 

    I'm not really disagreeing with you. I think Pelly as serpent can make a lot of sense. Perhaps also incorporating that duality with the Void Ghost. 

    Lorkhan's failure sent his consciousness adrift as an entity known as the Void Ghost that resides within the hidden The Serpent constellation where he tries to continue his goal of helping others reach states that exist beyond CHIM.[8][OOG 9]

     

    Taking into account the Void Ghost and that weirdness makes this answer and interpretation make way more sense, nice one Lis! :) With Shezarr/Lorkhan there is always that duality - or sometimes perhaps a triplicity when we connect him with Aka - that needs to be accounted for. As above, so below, the Serpent seems like his heart, the Void Ghost his consciousness. Madness was created when his divine spark was removed, and that certainly seems like the Serpent's eternal hunger - The Fangs of Sithis. And also Alduin, his brother's aspect, and so the triplicity is addressed too.

    'I am born of golden wisdom and powers that should have forever been unalike! With this nature I am invited into the Hidden Heaven!'

    By which he meant the Scaled Blanket, made of not-stars, whose number is thirteen. Lie Rock became full of foolishness, haggling with the Void Ghost who hides in the religions of all men ~ 36:33

    It also seems to be the case that the Ghost can hop into the Serpent at will. "Powers forever unalike" could well be the unstars the Serpent is made up of. That then becomes another topic as we discuss exactly what an un-star is :D

    I think for me the thing that needs to be accounted for is that unlike Mor and Alessia, the Pelinal is also that duality - a body with Shezarr's soul. So if you're willing to compromise we can meet each other half way: The mortal Whitestrake was born under the Warrior, like Ysmir the Shezarrine, but due to being the vessel housing the Missing God, he also is the Serpent. That way the Serpent is mantling the Warrior and each box is now checked :)