Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions


Who Is The Ur-Dra?

Tags: ##Daedra 
  • September 22, 2016

    When people hear the term "Ur-Dra" or original daedra they normal associate it with Nocturnal, this is because she straight-up claims the title for herself. I've never seen anybody dispute this claim which is weird considering she is a god associated with stealing, but not only that she isn't the only daedra to be associated with the title Ur-Dra.

    Hermaeus Mora has been called "Ur-Dra" and "older than Ada" (Fragmentae Abyssum Hermaeus Morus Secrets Overheard in Apocrypha)

    Namira is said to be the spirit daedra who's sphere is the Ancient Darkness and realm is the Scuttling Void (The Book of Daedra) she is also said to be the Great Darkness where Lorkhan was born and that this great darkness filled Lorkhan's Heart (Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi to her Favored Daughter) and that she is the Darkness Behind The World (Litter-Mates of Darkness). Basically, all this is saying is that Namira is the personification of the Capital V Void which would imply that she is the Ur-Dra.

    Vaermina is the Daedric Lord of dreams. She has been called the Gifter (A Game at Dinner) and the Weaver of the Panapoly (Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition: Invocation) Panapoly = all. If the reality of Elder Scrolls is a dream then wouldn't that maker her the Ur-Dra?

    Mephala has been mentioned as the first daedra also but for the life of me I can't find the reference.

     

    Just like most questions in TES there isn't a right or wrong answer and there likely never will be. But in your opinion which one of these daedra do you view as the Ur-Dra or are there any other Princes you think should be in the running?

    Personally, I don't think Nocturnal suits the title at all. Most of the people of Nirn view her as the Daedric Lord of Night, Luck, and Obscurity. Her darkness is the cover of night and its hidden possibilities not the Dark of the Void which to me belongs to Namira.

  • Member
    September 22, 2016

    I really want to say Nocturnal. Not just because of her fantastic taste in clothing or the mental images conjured by certain passages in Purloined Shadows, but becauase I want to honour those older sources too.

    However, I am not entirely certain this is a question that can, or was ever meant to be, answered. If we look at the common theme connecting these contenders for the title we can maybe see why there is a question mark on it at all. The beings are linked by mystery, shadow and the human emotion of something unfathomable. If we then think on that perspective, that these demons are personifications, or more accurately, names given to mortal fears and emotions, we can perhaps see why MK says this:

    The gods and demons beyond your control. They went through it before you. They are your ancestors, and this is in the blood. They are your Aedra/Daedra. And sometimes their names get mixed up.

  • September 22, 2016

    I've never really liked the idea of Nocturnal as Ur-Dra. I want Nameria or Vaermina to have it because they always get gypped when it comes to lore and quests where as Nocturnal and Herma are always popping up.

    I like that MK quote though.

  • Member
    September 22, 2016

    I hear ya. To be fair don't you think Nocturnal has been a bit let down too? From this dark and sexy goddess of witches as seen in Purloined Shadows and The Song of Hrormir, she is now most associated with the damned Thieves Guild? That to get her armour and give her the worship she deserves and demands one needs to complete a poxy faction questline devoted tojust one aspect of her. Boils my piss.

    First mod I am getting is Nocturnal's Robes. Second mod will something which brings that sexiness back to this demon.

    So, you fancy Vaermina. That is an interesting one, not a demon I would have considered. Perhaps you could flesh that out more and sell it?

  • September 22, 2016

    Tbh I've never been that much Nocturnal fan anyway, I know she's a fan favourite but she's always been meh to me. I have Azura for my sexy nighttime goddess.

    Yeah, I think Vaermina is super interesting and has a lot of potential. Maybe I should do a write-up on her.

  • September 22, 2016
    Vaermina hands down. <3
  • Tom
    Member
    September 22, 2016

    I'm with Phil. Nocturnal makes the most sense to me.

    Namira are things which crawl IN the Darkness.

    Vaermina are the imagined horrors that come WITH the Darkness.

    Nocturnal IS Darkness.

  • September 22, 2016

    I still don't buy it. Namira is the great darkness where Lorkhan was born, Nocturnal is the darkness where people\things are hidden.

  • Tom
    Member
    September 22, 2016

    Veloth the Vampire-Hunter said:

    I still don't buy it. Namira is the great darkness where Lorkhan was born, Nocturnal is the darkness where people\things are hidden.

    To the Khajiit she's the Ur-dra. That is the only source of this claim I'm aware of. My reading of it places her as coming into existence after Lorkhaj anyway.

     

    And the only source to call anything an Ur-dra is from Imperial Census of Daedra Lords,

    Nocturnal is accorded the title Ur-dra by nearly all the Royalty of Oblivion. As the mother of night, she claims to be an aspect of the original Void itself, and it is generally deemed best to fortify this declaration in one’s evening prayers.

  • September 23, 2016

    Yeah and the only reason Nocturnal is called the Ur-Dra is she claims she is. But so does Herma Mora.