Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions


Is Kynareth Akatosh?

  • Member
    April 4, 2016

    The Greybeards will tell you that Akatosh bestowed the Dragon Blood upon the Last Dragonborn. The Tablets as you progress up the Seven Thousand Steps will tell you that:

    Kyne called on Paarthurnax, who pitied Man

    Together they taught Men to use the Voice

    Then the Dragon War raged, Dragon against Tongue

    The book The Dragon War will tell you "it was Akatosh himself that intervened" and gave men the power of the voice.

    When The Greybeards greet TLD after the return of Jurgen's Horn, they say the following words:

    By our Voice we give it now (to you), Dragonborn, by (the) power of Kyne, by (the) power of Shor, and by (the) power of Atmora-of-old.

    No mention of Akatosh. If we look at the Nordic Pantheon and the Nordic view of Akatosh, we see he has no place:

    The Nords are perplexed and disturbed by the Imperial Cult’s focus on the Dragon God – they regard this as a fundamental misunderstanding of the universe, and one likely to cause disaster in the end.

    Then remember how the Nords believe Kyne breathed life into them at the beginning:

    The Nords believe men were formed on this mountain when the sky breathed onto the land. (PGE1ed)

    Nords consider themselves to be the children of the sky. They call Skyrim the Throat of the World, because it is where the sky exhaled on the land and formed them...(Children of the Sky)

    So my question is, does Kyne fulfil the same role as Akatosh in the Nordic viewpoint? Does that overlap extend into other areas of Akatosh's sphere? Does it change anything?

  • April 4, 2016

    Oh gods. *faints*

  • April 4, 2016

    does Kyne fulfil the same role as Akatosh in the Nordic viewpoint?

    At least partially. In the absence of Shor, she acts as the main deity of the pantheon, thus it's only logical that Nords give her the role that in the other pantheons belongs to Akatosh/Auri-El.

    Does that overlap extend into other areas of Akatosh's sphere?

    Well, Kyne obviously has no connection with Time. What else?

    Does it change anything?

    If we look at this in a wider perspective, it must change a lot. From such a mundane thing as the place of a woman in the Nordic society (since Kyne is Shor's widow and so on), to the Nords' view of Kyne's sphere, the nature (as it becomes the main aspect of their pantheon) which influences their general worldview and subsequently their way of life.

  • Member
    April 4, 2016

    Isn´t Alduin basically Akatosh to the Ancient Nords?

  • April 4, 2016

    Yes and no. It would conveniently explain why there's no Kyne in the Elvish Pantheon, that's the Auri-El/Akatosh role. Her taking on Akatosh aspects definitely masculinizes her, which I like a great deal. Not negating her feminine. I think that's extremely important too, but it reinforces the image of a strong female, rather than the consort image she has later, which I find distasteful, especially considering who her children are. I'm surprised Nords even accept this emasculation of Kaan, let alone the legends of Morihaus. A symbolic suppression of Nord martiality to appease the remnant Ayleids?  Making somebody a consort rather than a ruler would do that.

    It would also explain the desire to perpetually save creation. She is Lorkhan's widow, why not preserve what took his life to make? 

    I dunno, it doesn't make much of a difference to me, considering my change in stance since Syrabane gender-bending. She can have a masculine and a feminine. Dragons can still see her as Kaan and it very nicely explains why her name is a word of power. I'm sorry I keep using Kyne not Kynareth. It also is even more convenient why Mara serves as intermediary. Part of my still really likes the image of Bormah, the father. But could be acting for Bormah or Bormah in another form. 

  • Member
    April 4, 2016

    "The gods are cyclical, just like the world is." 

    Eh, what? Not exactly a classic first line. Clumsily and needlessly ending a sentence with 'is', and misusing the word 'like'?! Painful.

    What's wrong with "The gods are cyclical, as is the world"?

    Irrespective of who wrote that I'd see a sentence like this and immediately conclude it's the work of a non-writer, or at least a terrible one. As it is, it's KB, and I've found another reason why I don't like his stuff. 

    Sorry if this is only obliquely related, but it further serves to illustrate why I mostly ignore KB. This is an interesting question though, and something I hadn't before thought about. 

    And I feel better now; thanks. 

  • Member
    April 4, 2016

    The Greybeards will tell you that Akatosh bestowed the Dragon Blood upon the Last Dragonborn.

    When The Greybeards greet TLD after the return of Jurgen's Horn, they say the following words:...No mention of Akatosh. 

    I'm tempted to chalk this one up to a continuity error? 

    But in that KB link, he mentions that Kyne is the de facto head of the Norid pantheon. This makes sense even when considering that Kyne is a soft, Imperial excuse for a god (only kinda sorta half-kidding). Because even if the Nine are accepted by any given Nord, it makes sense that that Nord would revere the closest approximation to the Nordic Pantheon's leader, Kynareth. 

    Since Akatosh is the chief deity of the Nine, and Kyne is the de facto head of the Nordic pantheon, then maybe on a very basic level they do fulfill the same role. The role of pantheon-leader and life-maker. My terminology could use some work, but that's about the gist of it I think. 

    As for whether it changes anything, I'm not really sure. It does seem to suggest that maybe Alessia's plan didn't account for the stubborn and strong will of Nords. Er something. What I lack in lore knowledge, I make up for in my ability to guess :D 

    I did have an interesting thought, perhaps slightly off topic, definitely conspiratorial. Is there anything requiring that the Greybeards be Nord? They're revered by Nords, but I can't find anything saying that only a Nord can be a Greybeard. Hell, even their UESP pages only list their race as "Elder"! Is it possible that the Greybeards are actually 100% Imperial? 

  • April 5, 2016

    I think if some Imperial decided to become a Greybeard, they'd probably accept him. But what Imperial would want that? the Greybeards are traditional Nordic dudes, they are revered by Nords, the Imperials don't give a damn about them.

  • Member
    April 5, 2016

    If born-into-skyrim-but-came-from-atmora is possible, then this is too!

  • Member
    April 5, 2016

    This.. does.. not.. compute...

    Brain... malfunctioning... 

    Mind-blown aside, if this is true, then what's the point of having Eight Divines (minus Talos) if two of the Divines are the same god?