Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions


Lore Discussion: Standing Stones/Doomstones and Birthsigns

  • April 3, 2016

    So after reading Phil´s short story, where his character obtained the power of Atronach Standing Stone, I started thinking about them. How they work with Birthsigns and if they are somewhat similar to Doomstones from Oblivion.

    Can those born under the Birthsign of Shadow take the Lord Stone? Would it mean they are redefining their fate? Or would the Stone reject them? And what about the Aetherius Stones, that dotted the lands of Cyrod in Third Era? 

    New Doomstone Series!

    University Lectures

    An Explorer's Guide to Skyrim

    The Firmament

    Watcher of Stones

    UESP: Oblivion - Magical Stones

     

  • April 3, 2016

    Here is what we have discussed so far:

    Comment by Karver gro-Karves

    Nice weird shit going on here. So tell me, what just happend? Did Ugolin "change" his birthsign? Or magnified his own with Atronach? I really like the depth here, and it certainly raises good question for any writer.

    How to deal with Standing Stones in Skyrim when you already have Birthsigns? What do you think, Phil?

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    Comment by Phil

    What's going on here? Well I had to re-read it and remind myself but this story is based on my first build, a sword and staff user. I needed there to be an RP reason why he relies on a staff when any self respecting mage uses his own magicka.

    So I imagined him seeking out the Atronach stone for the power. Yet it comes with a price, magicka regens so slowly that you need another form of offence.

    I tried to make it as lore accurate as I could at the time - that magicka streams down as light but the Atronach sort of blocks it or acts as a sponge, protecting against harmful magic but also impeding the natural absorption of magic everyone has.

    As for Birthsigns v Stones, I think it is about the Hero being able to choose his fate. In TES III and IV there was that to a degree at the beginning, but TES V made it...literal?

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    Comment by Karver gro-Karves 

    So what happens when you actually have both in one story? Let´s think about it the lore way. Birthsigns surely just didn´t go away. So technicaly you still must have some advantages of your birthsign, right? So what if writer decides to use Standing Stones as...Doom Stones from Oblivion? Those Birthsign Stones, that gave you one more ability. 

    Also, would it possible lorewise to pick a Lord stone when you are born under Shadow for example? Like deciding your destiny? Or would the Lord reject you, because it is not your destiny? 

    The reason why I´m discussing this because I was thinking about combining the Doomstones, Birthsigns and Standing Stones for Cursed Tribe. What do you think?

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    Comment by Phil

    There is no reason I can see why not K, on all counts. The whole thing is just a gameplay mechanic but the lore is firm that birthsigns confer powers and there should be no reason why a character can't have a sign and a doomstone. The only problem is that character might need to be a Hero.

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    Comment by Karver gro-Karves

    Might need to be a Hero...hm. What´s the difference there? Hero can choose his fate, other people can´t? 

    I´m thinking more about pretty much normal characters, not everyone is a Hero, right? So what about them?

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    Comment by Phil

    Anyone can be born beneath a sign and supposedly get influenced by it, but the idea about Standing Stones is that only the Prisoner it truly free.

    It's an odd and counter intuitive, but if the Thief takes the Tower, then the Prisoner is already in it.

    Not sure about Doomstones with researching. Iirc from the Mages Guild lectures, to most they were inert stones...? That's more your area I reckon.

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    Comment by Karver gro-Karves

    UESP states that Standing Stones are basicaly comparable to Birthsign stones from Oblivion, but I somehow always had problem with Standing Stones that there is literally nothing on them. Know what I mean? Nobody mentions them beside Ralof or Hadvar, no source, nothing.

    With Oblivion on the other hand, we had New Doomstone Series!, which actually isn´t much. But here comes the boom, friend. I have a question for you? How many times have you stopped in Arcane University and listened to those lectures there?

    University Lectures

    Now, even that actually doesn´t describe what they are, right? Only that there are multiple versions of them and few theories when they were placed. 

    But the question is...what do they do outside of the gameplay? Opinions?

  • April 3, 2016

    I don't think they override the birthsign, more like they just add to it.

  • April 3, 2016

    I don´t think it overrides the birthsign either, but think about it. You are born under Steed and take the Thief? What could it mean? Could the Stone reject you? Accept you? 

  • April 3, 2016

    Don't know. I doubt it. Maybe only in case then the Stone's ability contradicts the birthsign?

  • Member
    April 3, 2016

    Maybe you'll just get a portion of the 'taken' stones power.

  • April 3, 2016

    I agree with Phil. It's almost certainly tied to the role of the Prisoner. Right now I'm thinking other people are stuck with their Birthsigns (and they only activate the Standing Stone that goes with said Birthsign) and only the Prisoner can change it via Standing Stones.

  • Member
    April 3, 2016

    Mmm... Interesting...

    I've little time to discuss this (like, I'm leaving once I finish writing this), but i'm curious, so I searched, and found this (from the wiki description):

    Legend tells of the stones granting special powers to heroes of old, giving them the ability to rewrite their fate.

    The stones only seem to respond to certain individuals, but it is unknown what the qualifier for this is.

    And a small volume called "The Raneviad, Volume 2" (http://www.imperial-library.info/content/raneviad-volume-ii) which could or could not be talking about an actual Standing or Mundus Stone, for I could not find Vol. 1 and I lack its background, but I think it should be taken into consideration (although it talks about a pilgrimage in order to gain its blessing so... I don't know).

    I'm not an expert in this and I haven't played Oblivion (and only a little bit of Morrowind), so I know a less about the matter, but I think that it changes the fate/birthsign of those who interact with them, those who the stars deem worthy of the blessing, and not only to the Prisioner/Hero of every game.

    (I'll read later the links Karver said at the end and comment with more knowledge about them later)

  • Member
    April 3, 2016

    Not concrete lore by any means, but the authors of the mod Requiem decided to go with that you could only change your birth stone to one within the family (warrior, mage, or thief) of the first stone you choose.

  • Member
    April 3, 2016

    In terms of Birthsigns, we are led to believe from The Firmament that people have characteristics depending on which sign they were born under. Whether this is hokum like our real world Astrology or if the setting and magical nature of Tamriel make it a reality is entirely up to the individual player. We know Uriel VII believed in it.

    Trouble is, Skyrim completely removed the signs. So what Karver is saying is that if we still got to pick a sign at the beginning like we did in Morrowind and Oblivion, how would the Stones work?

    I reckon, like Matt said, that they only respond to a Hero, one who is a Prisoner and therefore free to chose his/her fate.

    The Runestones of Cyrodiil are interesting as they too seem only to respond to a Hero. Yet they seem also to be there because of Hestra and Reman. Reman, we may recall, can be considered to be at one with the land, that when you walk on Cyrod you walk on Reman. Hestra, according to Where Were You When the Dragon Broke, ruled and witnessed during this event:

    According to Hestra, Cyrodiil became an Empire across the stars.