Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions


Redguards and Magic

  • August 15, 2015

    This is my interpretation of the matter. I hope no rules were broken in submitting this.

    Introduction

    “I'm Trayvond the Redguard, Mages Guild Evoker. Surprised? Yes, you don't see many Redguards in the Mages Guild. We don't much like spellcasters in Hammerfell...so I had to come to Cyrodiil for my education. I admit... I still have strong prejudices against necromancy, summoning, and illusion...And I'm uneasy about tampering with other's minds and trafficking with Daedra,” - Trayvond the Redguard

    Many have used his statement in reference to the Redguard’s attitudes on magic. Redguards, Their History and Their Heroes and From The Memory Stone of Makela Leki provide unambiguous examples of magic having significance to the Redguards. Thus, magic will mean Tamrielian from hereafter.

    Strangely enough, Trayvond’s views are echoed in neither the first edition nor third edition pocket guides (just my questioning). Borissean (Redguard), one of Cyrodiil’s most skilled third era mages alongside Breton Gaspar Stegine, did not hint at such prejudices nor profess to share Trayvond's dislikes. Falion (Redguard) makes no mention of the Nords of Morthal reminding him of Hammerfell – if he was raised in Hammerfell. Could it be Redguard prejudice towards magic is regional within Hammerfell?

    Forebear Speculation

    The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel/Hammerfell” implies disdain of magic is universal, saying, “For all their acrimony, both the Forebears and the Crowns do share an antipathy for magic, especially necromancy.”

    I would dare say that characterisation is false and will argue the Forebears are accepting of magic.

    The Forebears are the more progressive of Redguards of Hammerfell. They were not conceptualised until the Bretons and the Redguards fell Orsinium in 1E 980, finally trading with their Breton neighbors and adopting their culture, Imperials included, although chiefly the Bretons. They dominated Redguard society under the Reman Empire until the Interregnum, when power shifted back to the Crowns (Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/Hammerfell).

    A political marriage between Sentinel and Wayrest was forged during the Interregnum, the marriage presumably ending well for no Wayrest dynasty was ever supplanted (Wayrest, Jewel Of The Bay). A second political marriage resulted from the War of Betony, which stabilised the Iliac Bay (The Warp in the West). The Forebear pantheon includes Julianos, a known patron of mages (Varieties of Faith, The Forebears).

    Forebear and Breton relations have lasted for over 3,000 years and the Forebears seemed to have shown more than tolerance. What is more of a stretch, the Forebears holding onto prejudices against magic for millennia or the Forebears being embracing of magic after effectively assimilating into a world comfortable with said magic?

    To be fair, The Improve Emperor's Guide to Tamriel/Hammerfell acknowledges Julianos in regards to the presence of mages, calling them “few”, though I object to the estimate of few on account of The Sage. It reads, “He [Breton mage] arrived at the Crystal Tower several years later after having traversed the province of Hammerfell where he had many adventures, met many other mages [my emphasis] and shared his experiences and knowledge with them.”

    The Mages Guild was not absent in the Hammerfell either. The Mages Guild in Stros M’Kai was chartered in 2E 638 and had a Redguard, Jaganvir, as the Arch-Mage (events of Redguard), and furthermore, the Mages Guild dotted the regions of Hammerfell in Daggerfall, somewhat reflected in ESO; for what it is worth, Redguard mages are not a rarity in ESO either and speaking to Delkash (Redguard) in Eyevea will reveal, “The Crowns have been pushing King Fahara’jad. They seek to ban any Guild member that studies in Eyevea from with the military. It’s just as well, if you ask me.” She made no mention of the Forebears’ objections.

    The Forebears have also been criticised (Sacrilege and Mayhem in the Alik'r) by the Crowns for their relative tolerance of the Ash’abah, a group of outcasts shunned for the dealings with the dead, which involves killing them (a taboo) and cleansing tombs of spirits with magic, which could necromancy of some sort. Sacrilege and Mayhem in the Alik'r is vague about “forbidden mystical means”, as is “who [Forebears] tolerate the most outrageous non-traditional practices.” Given what I have presented thus far, I would say that includes magic.

    Perhaps more telling of the Forebear’s – specifically Sentinel – tolerance of magic can be revealed in Cyrus’ statement to N’Gasta: "I thought Hammerfell was plagued by necromancy only in the north [will speculate on that], where Sentinel lay in similar shadow."

    That is certainly not me saying necromancy is accepted but questioning if necromancy could become relatively prevalent in a region where mages are not tolerated.

    The Alik'r Desert

    Wind and Sand introduces rather eloquently the magic of the Alik’r desert – providing many interpretations for Redguard mage role-players – and the Unveiled Azadiyeh spoke of the Ash’abah having similar tribes in southern Hammerfell; I cannot ascertain if they survived to the fourth era. She also went on to mention the Exiled Sun-Eaters of Nunameh; I interpret them as a group of mages, probably exiled for necromancy, given magic’s connection to the sun and the Redguard penchant for poetic descriptions. That is pure speculation on my end.

    In addition, Crown Prince A’tor had a mage by his side during his death (Introduction to Redguard).

    Crown Speculations

    Back to Trayvond the Redguard.

    The Mages Guild was not suddenly disbanded in Hammerfell before the Oblivion Crisis (which ended the Guild throughout Tamriel). Operating under the assumption – which I have hopefully adequately defended – the Forebears are accepting of magic, I am inclined to believe he was from a Crown kingdom. Conveniently enough, save for Hegathe, Crown kingdoms are in eastern Hammerfell, which rests on the border of Cyrodiil. Traveling through the desert is rather risky for it presents various existential threats – some aggressive tribes, the aridity, and dangerous animals – and the Dragontail Mountains is a task to trek through, thus he sought for Cyrodiil.

    I believe the Crown disdain of magic has two components: it is not their magic and the Reachmen.

    The Reachmen angle is flimsy - and probably - but in my head-canon, the Crowns have had to fend off Reachmen raiding through the Dragontail Mountains. “The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel/Bangkorai” reads, “Eminently defensible, with the mountains shrouding the settlements, these roughly sliced stone and thick wood pilings serve as effective parapets against marauding giants and Reachmen. Wrothgar and northern Hammerfell are dotted with these fortified towns.”

    Northern Hammerfell is largely Crown – under Sentinel’s control during the third era (Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition/Hammerfell) – and the Reachmen are said to have learned some of their magic from the Orcs (Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/High Rock). Coupled with universal Redguard disdain of the Orcs, the Crown’s conservatism and the nature of Reach magic could have lead Crowns to associate it all with Tamrielian magic. I am also inclined to retroactively assign the Reachmen context to Cyrus’ statement about necromancy plaguing the north but he could have been referring to High Rock. I am not sure but it seems to fit.

    Despite that, I believe the Crowns do practice magic – their magic – and refuse to equate it with Tamrielian magic. Astronomy was important to the Yokudans, and I argue the study of the stars is inherently a study of magic (Magic from the Sky)(Mysteries of the Mundus Stones). There is a Hammerfell quest in ESO (cannot remember the name so pardon the poor description) that involved the Yokudans and in that quest it was mentioned the Yokudans knew a great deal about magic. If the Crowns are the staunch traditionalists the lore suggests, it would be reasonable to suggest they retain many of those studies.

    I also like the idea of some rogue Redguards using Alteration to rediscover some of the stone magic of the Hiradirge (Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition/Other Lands) and there being remnants of Dragonknight magic – especially for the Earthen Heart skill – as it seems quite appropriate for a non-Crown Redguard to study.

     Conclusion

    I believe – likely against the ideas of the developers – that magic is very much present in Hammerfell and that Trayvond does not speak for the whole of Hammerfell, seeing his statement as true as far as the Crowns are concerned. I simply find it hard to believe for his statement can be applied to the Forebears with their 3,000+ years of intimate interaction with Tamriel, and I have some doubts about the Crowns.

    Play you a Redguard mage and go learn yourself a book.

    Digression: I also consider the Forebears a distinct ethnic group given their history, and A Betrayal of Our Heritage may hint at that idea, and that may be a fringe belief but I think it is worth consideration.

    Edit - 19/8/15:

    According to the Lord of Souls, there was a general from Hammerfell who led 5,000 men against Umbriel, and mages made up a bulk of his force. Because it was said Titus Mede later gave General Takar a legion following that failed strike, I believe it reasonable to assert General Takar's mages came from Hammerfell, though I cannot say from where.

    General Takar, one of Mede’s most trusted generals, is from Hammerfell. “He’d fought against the Empire, before Titus Mede won him over—supposedly through personal combat,” though Mazgar doubts that this is the truth.

    “Takar had about five thousand men with him, mostly mounted infantry and mages. [Mazgar] could see them formed up in a huge field, along with some eight large wagons that might be siege engines of some sort.
    … Less than an hour later the legion met its counterpart as the shadow of Umbriel moved toward them.

    Source - Cyrodiil

  • Member
    August 15, 2015

    Very good first article in Apocrypha, Forebearialis. Most impressive. The points you raise immediately made me think about the source of the study of magic, that is to say the Mages Guild and the like. They have undeniable Elven roots, and I wonder if the distinction between Redguard's views on magic and the arcane arts they see practiced could lie in cultural differences.

    I mean, you mention the stars being vital in Redguard culture and we know that the sun and sky is important thanks to Tava's role in myth. When we look at what sunlight is and what starlight is, along with how the Redguards revere their ancestors and it indicates a huge cultural difference in perspective. A rose by any other name, so to speak.

    So therefore it could be a case of how that magic is used, not the magic itself as you point out.

    I like it, well written, sourced, logical conjecture based on evidence and pretty hard to argue with. I reckon that ridiuclous "non-canon" tag can disappear because there isn't much oog sources used. Instead, the gaps are filled with in-game book/dialogue to support your assertions. This is exactly what lore should be, not some spoon-fed dictation to answer every query.

    I will add this to the Redguard shelf in the Directory.

  • August 15, 2015

    Thanks.

    And I left out the mentions of Mages Guild in Crown kingdoms - although some of the Hammerfell regions in Daggerfall are Crown and had guilds but are not kingdoms as far as I know - because Dragonstar's UESP page is rather empty and Elinhir's history with magic is at the latest second era and involved question mages, not the prestigious Mages Guild.

    Skaven is, as far as current lore is concerned, home to the Halls of Virtue and I do not doubt those who study there have a respect for the arcane; whether they can summon Shehai has not yet been verified (Notes For Redguard History).

    "They have undeniable Elven roots, and I wonder if the distinction between Redguard's views on magic and the arcane arts they see practiced could lie in cultural differences."

    I believe a great deal of it is elven related as far as the Crowns see it but even how magic - in general - is practiced can be a problem. The Ash'abah used spells not of Aldmeri origin and the Crowns still despised them, which, along with the nature of spirits, lead me to believe the Ash'abah flirted with necromancy.

    The distinction of necromancy is rather vague. Necromancy can include the study of healing and soul trapping animals is and is not necromancy, depending upon who is asked, and if necromancy involves manipulation of the dead, are 'Restoration' spells that give sway over them and enables the healing of corpses a subset of necromancy?

    That also calls into question if whether Ansei Wards are essentially necromantic magic, and I like the nod ZoS gave to necromancy in Sentinel, although I am not sure if that was intentional. Suturah overran Sentinel with undead and his powerful necromancer children Alasan, Shiri, and Uwafa (a Worm Cultist) - along with their Withered Hand - were wrecking the Alik'r.

    And I guess I will just replaced that Non-Canon with Magic .

  • Member
    August 16, 2015

    I'm almost reluctant to ask this because it strays into the roleplay territory and may be disrespectful to your thesis. I'll leave the decision to you as to whether you think this is relevant to your post or should have it's own topic.

    How do we as players overcome the problem of Redguard magic in-game? You've done a grand job of asserting that the stereotypical Redguard view of magic has been overplayed, but we still cannot escape the fact that in the vast majority of cases in Redguard lore books their magic is only ever mentioned in reference to the Shehai, an art who's secrets of mastery has long since been lost.

    Now I'm going to be lazy and nick from Matt's favorite r/teslore scholar Ushnad-gro-Udnar who makes the point way better than I.

    “I admit... I still have strong prejudices against necromancy, summoning, and illusion. Profaning the remains or souls of the dead is just wrong. And I'm uneasy about tampering with other's minds and trafficking with Daedra.” ~ Trayvond the Redguard

    While the relationship the Raga have with the Daedra is something discussed very little and therefore there is not enough to comment on this aspect (just yet) we see here how magic is an affront to the sanctity of the individual in Yokudan thought. Profaning the remains of the dead is violating this even after death which shows the strength of this notion. Tampering with other’s minds through Illusion magic is also something to be frowned on. A man or woman’s mind is their own and to mess around with it is an insult and a sign of weakness as you must only resort to that when you cannot best them in sword play.

    There is a bit more to it though. Paradoxically, Redguard culture stresses both sanctity of the individual but demands cultural conformity and homogeneity. Again, destruction of Yokuda. Magic, put quite simply, is a distraction. The Walkabout and escape from Mundus demands culturally rigid homogeneity and focused mastery and effort. The obsession with sword play is a manifestation of this. Magic is a distraction from this homogeneity, it encourages diversity in a culture that needs conformity for its end goals. After all, how can you mantle a group that fled en masse if everyone is going in different directions? But couldn’t magic be a cultural obsession? Couldn’t they all just focus on magic and that be the homogeneity that galvanizes them and propels them along the path to the Far Shores? No. Magic comes from Aetherius which is where the Redguards want to go. How did the Magna-ge get there? They cut their way through. Magic is a consequence of this, it is not part of the journey it is the aftermath. In order to mantle them one must follow on the journey as they did which is why the obsession is with swords, only a blade can cut through the fabric of Oblivion. Magic is not that way.

    So how do we overcome this in-game? If all the sources in which Redguard mages are adopting the Cyrodiilic/Altmeri schools and studying in Cyrodiliic/Altmeri  institutional learning facilities and there are scant records of traditional Yokudan magic besides the Spirit Sword, how do we go about making lore-friendly Redguard magic users?

    I can imagine from reading Matt's posts over the years that a lot of Redguard magic we'd see if there were a TES VI Hammerfell would be spells woven from blade-work. In terms of gameplay, this would be like the Bloodskal Blade or more appropriately The Dragonsword of Lainlyn.

    To wrap up this convoluted question, if Tamrielic magic could be replicated with esoteric swordsmanship such as the Feeney describes here...:

    Now onto my actual theory: Julianos is the God of Wisdom, Logic, Mathematics, and Language. He's kind of the scholar of whatever pantheon he is in. How would a culture obsessed with swords imagine a god of scholarly subjects? In crazy, advanced sword techniques. Enter Leki the God of Aberrant Swordsmanship. The one who taught the Ephemeral Feint. The one who holds the knowledge of such techniques that no doubt require a knowledge of mathematics and angles to pull off, let alone actually create.

    ...Would the Redguards be more accepting of magical practices? Would they view the power unlocked in the Dragonsword as magic or sword technique?

    Addendum: I know there is nothing linking the Dawnguard in lore to Redguards beyond the fact that the current leader of this revived group is a member of that race so this is probably blatant racism/bias, but the Dawnguard are inextricably linked to the Redguards through Isran in our collective unconsciousness.

    Could that be the reason why all the artifacts, the Rune Hammer, Rune Shield and Rune Axe simulate magical effects, freeing up the wielder of these items to concentrate on martial techniques? If these are indeed examples of Yokudan magic, there seems no limit to what magical could be reproduced using martial techniques.

    Edit: Let me explain that last part before I am actually accused of racism. In my mind the Dawnguard plug-in and the Battlehorn Castle plug-in share many parallels. Obviously they share a Redguard leadership connection, obviously they are both castles and obviously they involve quests in which you fight undead and recover artifacts. Beyond that, though, there is the Jurard connection and knightly order connection.In my mind this equals a  variation on a meme, a story sharing similar elements repeated again and again. Dawnguard is very mythopoeaic when compared to The Fighters Stronghold.

  • August 16, 2015

    I'll leave the decision to you as to whether you think this is relevant to your post or should have it's own topic.

    It is relevant because it allows me to further explain what I wanted to reserve for comments (imagine face here).

    How do we as players overcome the problem of Redguard magic in-game? ... but we still cannot escape the fact that in the vast majority of cases in Redguard lore books their magic is only ever mentioned in reference to the Shehai, an art who's secrets of mastery has long since been lost.

    The only in-game Redguard magic we know is Whirlwind Cloak but I admit that problem will not be overcome without mods. I made this with role-playing and story writing in mind and I interpret things accordingly, similar to how Reachman role-players do not have access to Reach magic in-game. I can only imagine from bits of lore. Some may find it strange, and I accept that.

     I can imagine from reading Matt's posts over the years that a lot of Redguard magic we'd see if there were a TES VI Hammerfell would be spells woven from blade-work.

    That is how I interpret much of the magic use in Hammerfell, actually: more so hybrids than pure mages as Redguards - Forebear or Crown - love their blades. We know the Sword-singers did enchant their blades, how being unspecified and some Redguards (and people in general as the Mages Guild had to organise rules surrounding it) would object to soul gems, although Prince A'tor was soul trapped and woven into a sword. Considering his political allegiance, it might mean something.

    In addition, I also imagine it is possible to project one's magicka into the blade without enchanting.

     Would the Redguards be more accepting of magical practices?

    I would specify the group of Redguards. I want drill the idea I separate Forebears and Crowns beyond politics - why I explained their disparate amounts of acceptance of Nedic culture.

    As for Ushnad-gro-Udnar post, my critique is here (7th post). It is essentially me adding the nuances of the Forebears and Crowns and questioning some of the premises.

  • August 16, 2015

    Ah, the Dragonsword of Lainlyn... Lainlyn is a Crown barony , probably still is in the fourth era*. Lord Kelvyn's note implies they were exiled as a result of battle, not for any magical practices apparently, so interpreting the Dragonsword as a form of Yokudan/Crown (Crowns - Oblivion take them - make little distinction) magic very well may fit.

    * Julianos is the chief deity of Lainlyn in Daggerfall but consider how the seceding lore seemed to have abandoned that, I will not consider it. I still believe using the Mages Guild in Hammerfell in Daggerfall is valid given the direction ESO has taken and the Mages Guild's reach, which is why I find it odd that improved guide has that assertion... anyway. Yeah. Enough of that.

  • Member
    August 16, 2015

    I like your critique. In defense of Ushnad I think his perspective is broader in theme (I know this is the problem with metaphysics, it requires one to make broad and sweeping statements) so the details you are looking at are inconsistent with the point he is making which is along the lines of saying "Elves don't like Mundus" - it's a broad truth but doesn't tell the whole story. Like your Forebears, such a statement doesn't take into account the subtleties of culture but it still reflects a viewpoint synonymous with elves.

    Am I to infer from your posts that the divide between Forbears and Crowns is greater than I thought? My knowledge on this is scant but from what I've read I was under the impression that the difference between the two cultures wasn't so deep a to make them fundamentally different in their world-view. That is to say, if one were to accept the fact that the Redguard ideal is to get to the Far Shores, is there a huge distinction between Crown and Forebear ways to achieve this?

  • August 16, 2015

    Am I to infer from your posts that the divide between Forbears and Crowns is greater than I thought? My knowledge on this is scant but from what I've read I was under the impression that the difference between the two cultures wasn't so deep a to make them fundamentally different in their world-view

    I believe the divide is greater than simply having Imperial gods and dressing like other races, partly because even Elinhir took on some Imperial customs; that is avoidable to some extent.

    Having a civil war and doing nothing to help the other in a slaughter (Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition/Hammerfell) is... intense. To be fair, they did reconcile in the Great War but we do not know what came of it aside from a treaty with the Dominion, the details of even that unknown to us.

    I approach the divide more from an anthropological (pretty word for mundane) perspective rather than a metaphysical one. Even if they have the same view of Mundus, I would not consider it at odds with my thesis on the Redguard approach to magic (speaking generally). The Nibenese did not let their theology keep them from magic.

    That is to say, if one were to accept the fact that the Redguard ideal is to get to the Far Shores, is there a huge distinction between Crown and Forebear ways to achieve this?

    There could be room to argue there are differences. It is reasonable to suggest some Forebears would have an appreciative view of Mundus whereas some retained their Yokudan narrative with a Tamrielian ideological skin, similar to how Nords and Imperials retained theirs whilst worshiping some 'elven gods'.

    What I cannot see is the Redguards coming to the conclusion that they should cut their way to the Far Shores and abstain from magic to do so. Magic is simply to ubiquitous for that narrative to catch on, in my opinion, and I see the avoidance of 'magic' as Crowns not liking that elven swill.

    If how magicka is used somehow changes the caster's soul (or whatever) in some fundamental way, I could see the Crowns coming to some theological conclusions about magic and the Far Shores. If so, I believe that would be yet another reason to can the 'Redguards hate magic'. It would provide more role-play options for Redguard mages without making a Redguard who hates Tamrielian magic the standard.

    Imagine a Crown mage trying to 'save the soul' of a Forebear mage. The lore already has them making use of 'infidel'.

  • August 16, 2015

    Thesis... By Mara, that sounds pretentious. I mean hypothesis.

  • August 19, 2015

    Updated.