Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions


Legendary Figures: Ulfric Stormcloak

  • March 4, 2015

    Waisankyu.

  • March 4, 2015

    Delphine is likely the easiest, given that we know more about her than pretty much anyone else. I also think it would be nice to give people a perspective on her that doesn't begin and end with, "She was mean to me so she deserves to die."

  • Member
    March 4, 2015

    Plus, as Matt said, she is one of my favourites and so should be enjoyable to write.

  • Member
    March 4, 2015

    That is terrifying.

  • March 4, 2015

    The frustrating thing about the civil war, at least for me, is this: Ulfric, despite having racist tendencies and a debatable claim to the throne, is the most well-developed and interesting character in the entire story arc. Tullius and Rikke are presented well, but we don't really know a whole lot about them, because there's little to know; it's almost as if they're just in the game to put down the rebellion. It's their duty and nothing more. For Ulfric, it's more than duty -- it's a mission. It's become his life. It makes you want to side with him right from the start, since the Imperial side seems kind of boring when compared to the rebels.

    And then there's Whiterun to consider; specifically Balgruuf, who seems a far better leader than Vignar Gray-Mane (who, compared to Balgruuf, seems like just a grumpy old guy who can't stop talking about the olden days). But if you side with the Stormcloaks, you're forced to kick him out -- and he even berates you for it, saying "I thought better of you" before going to Solitude and swearing that the Stormcloaks -- yourself included -- will all pay for dethroning him. Come on, who doesn't feel like Tamriel's biggest jerk after doing that mission?

    And even at the end of the Stormcloak campaign, there's this unshakable feeling that you've made a big mistake; after killing Rikke and getting Tullius on the ground, he warns that this is exactly what the Thalmor want. That they planned this rebellion from the very beginning and would soon invade Skyrim a second time, dooming everyone in the province. Ulfric and Galmar shrug this off, but it's still a cause for concern. The Concordat was what stopped the war, and now that it no longer applies to Skyrim, what's to stop the Dominion from swarming in and taking it for themselves?

    So yeah, there's my two cents on Ulfric and the civil war in general; if you ask me, it could've used some better development.  At least for the far-too-dull Imperial side, which I've usually gone with so as to keep Skyrim safe from the Thalmor. I dunno, what do you guys think?

  • March 4, 2015

    I think you have a point about the Imperial side being underdeveloped. It's one of the reasons I think the Stormcloaks are better- they are actually attempting to do something, while the Legion is defined by it's opposition to that mission. It's more interesting to me to create, rather than destroy, and the Legion questline is about destruction.

    I used to feel bad about dethroning Balgruuf, but the more I've gone over the situation the more I see it as his own fault. I mentioned in my first post here that I believe that Skyrim is only in the situation it's in because Whiterun didn't initially pick a side when the civil war first broke out. If he had sided with the Stormcloaks, obviously, they wouldn't have needed to invade...but it's pretty clear that, while he has little love for the Empire and is probably a secret Talos worshiper, his personal enmity with Ulfric Stormcloak leads him to reject that option. If he had backed the Empire from the get-go, it's questionable whether the Stormcloaks would ever have been able to establish themselves as strongly as they did. Whiterun's strength and importance would have tipped the balance decisively in favor of the Legion from the very start, ending the conflict before it truly started.

    I disagree with you about a few things- I think Vignar Greymane seems like a good jarl, and a good contrast to Balgruuf. The original Jarl of Whiterun is defined by his caution and unwillingness to act unless he feels he has no choice; he is obviously unhappy with the terms of the White-Gold Concordat, but claims that the jarls had no choice in the matter...even though there is another choice. He could join the Stormcloak rebellion, but his pride, his reticence to take action or his dislike of Ulfric prevents him from taking a stand for his beliefs; he just sits and stews until Ulfric forces him to make a choice, and he seems to side with the Empire almost out of spite.

    Vignar, on the other hand, knows what is right...and is willing to fight for it. He's old, yes, but that means that he's long since passed the point where he feels like he needs to apologize for his beliefs. He's a proud Nord, and he's not going to let some far-off emperor and a bunch of scheming elves tell him who he should or should not worship. He quickly establishes control of the city after the Battle of Whiterun, getting things running again and the people's lives back to normal. He's willing to lend you aid - even when you're asking him to trap a dragon in his keep. Point is, Vignar is strong-willed and unwilling to compromise his principles or his people for the sake of political expediency or personal gain. Balgruuf does both.

    Finally, I highly doubt the Aldmeri Dominion will be flooding into Skyrim anytime soon, or that they could win such a conflict if they tried. Remember: the Dominion didn't actually win the Great War- it was technically a draw, with the Empire suing for peace following the Dominion's decisive defeat in the Battle of the Red Ring. Neither side was anywhere near capable of continuing the fight, but the Empire ended up surrendering a lot in the White-Gold Concordat. (including, but not limited to- banning worship of Talos, giving up half of Hammerfel to the Dominion and disbanding the Blades)

    It's apparent that they only had so much initial success because the Empire didn't see it coming; by the time they realized what was happening, they had already lost a lot...but, the turned it around over time and fought back. The Dominion's attempt to destroy the Empire through military conquest failed, yet people often think that they would easily win if they tried again. I'm not convinced, especially because, this time, they'd be facing a nation full of people who don't trust them, aren't willing to bend over backwards to appease them, have just spent several years gaining a lot of combat experience and, most importantly, know they're coming.

  • March 4, 2015

    That's a fantastic case and an overall outstanding presentation. Thank you for responding! :) Lately I've been curious about looking at the Stormcloaks' position on the civil war, after having gone through the Imperial campaign over and over again. It's good to look at all sides of a debate, you know? And you definitely raised some profound points in favor of the Stormcloaks. Thanks again!

  • March 4, 2015

    Thanks! A lot of civil war debates get stuck in trying to prove which side is "right," when, really, they both are. All that matters is what perspective you're looking at it from. 

  • March 4, 2015

    Exactly. And looking at both sides as being equally human and equally wise, instead of superior and inferior, is far more fulfilling anyway. 

  • Member
    March 6, 2015

    Provide a source and I'll add it. My understanding is that it was a very sudden and unexpected challenge, something backed by Sybille Stentor's dialogue which implies Torygg may even have sided with Ulfric if pushed a bit more.