Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions


The many faces of Akatosh?

  • Member
    June 27, 2014

    I wanted to start a discussion challenging the concept that Akatosh "is one of two deities found in every Tamrielic religion" as stated in Varieties of Faith. For a start that very same source has Alduin as the Nordic version of Akatosh, so how reliable can that book be?

    In order to understand why I think Akatosh, Auriel, Alkosh and the rest cannot be the same god we need to look at a few sources. Shezarr and the Divines states that "Akatosh was an Aldmeri god" and that Alessia created a new religion called The Eight Divines "an elegant, well-researched synthesis of both pantheons, Nordic and Aldmeri." So how can the Imperial Akatosh and the Elven Akatosh actually be the same deity if one was created by Alessia?

    Perhaps Gods and Worship holds the answer and that "gods do in fact gain strength from such things as worship through praise, sacrifice and deed. It may even be theorized that the number of worshippers a given Deity has may reflect on His overall position among the other Gods." Could this mean that any deity can be brought into existence simply if enough people venerate them? The political climate of the time would certainly be conducive to such a change.

    Maybe The Dragon Break is in fact Vindicated and the Marukhati Selective‎ succeeded in cleansing "the protean substrate of the Aldmeri Taint", thereby creating a new human-centric time god who being a time god has both only just been created and simultaneously always existed.

    If either of the above are true, how can Akatosh possibly be the same deity as the other Dragon gods? Maybe a quick look at a few of the myths will establish the separate identities of these beings. Auriel, for instance, is thought to have removed Lorkhan's heart and "fastened the thing to an arrow and let it fly long into the sea."

    In Khajiiti myths it isn't Alkosh who removes Lorkhan's heart but all "The children of Fadomai tore out the Heart of Lorkhaj and hid it deep within Nirni. And they said, "We curse you, noisy Lorkhaj, to walk Nirn for many phases"

    Another problem we have with Auriel and Akatosh being the same god is that Auriel is possibly an ancestor of the Aldmeri people "The religion of the people also changed  because of this change in society: no longer did the Aldmer worship their own ancestors, but the ancestors of their "betters." Auriel, Trinimac, Syrabane and Phynaster are among the many ancestor spirits who became Gods."

    This is further complicated by Auriel's ascent "to heaven in full observance of his followers so that they might learn the steps needed to escape the mortal plane" something neither Akatosh or Alkosh are involved in.

    There are obvious similarities but each has their own identity.

    Another obvious problem involving the assumption of Akatosh being present "in every Tamriellic religion" is the lack of a direct parallel between The Dragon God of Time and any deity of the Yokudan pantheon. To accept the idea that each race's creation myth has an Akatosh leaves doesn't leave much room for the Redguard view of creation.

    I conclude by asserting that looking at these Time Gods as being the same deity is an over simplification that we need to try and move away from. Rather, we should view each as shards of the same shattered glass pane or distinct branches of a tree, all affected by whatever winds hit the trunk but each with their own independent movement, length and identity: Separate yet part of the same whole.

    What do you guys think? How do you interpret these deities? Why is it that we don't draw as many parallels with the Yokudan faith and put as much stock in it when we so easily accept the Altmeri?Cyrodiilic religions? Wouldn't the Redguard pantheon and creation myths be just as valid, further proving that what we think we know is all wrong?

    Please share your thoughts

    Edit: Matt Feeney's theory "the Yokudans and Redguards believe they descended from the original spirits, just like most of the other races believe. But I thought about where their gods fit in. There isn't anything about them even being on Nirn, and I'm starting to think the gods they worship (bar Diagna and debatably HoonDing) are the spirits from creation who DIDN'T take part in Sep's plan" sheds huge light on the Many Faces of Akatosh because it implies the reason for the lack of any distinct counterparts in other religions lies with the fact that these Yokudan gods are in fact Magna-ge. This would help explain the Redguard fascination with stars and navigation - they're trying to escape just like the elves but they use the stars placed in the heavens by Tall Papa as guides to the way home.

    It's a good theory and has the ring of truth. I'll  have to investigate it more.

  • June 27, 2014
    Okay, first this is one thing I respect MK for as he commented after the release of Skyrim on him writing Varieties of Faith in that the author wasn't versed in Nordic Culture, which is proven in the Nord written Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy. Not only that, but Akatosh isn't Aldmeri seeing how the Aldmeri version is Auri-El and "Akatosh" was already present in both cultures meaning he wasn't literally made up by Alessia, who Akatosh gave the Amulet of Kings, the Amulet of Kings and the nature of Akatosh is the key of why he's the same deity, all religions have him being the Dragon God of Time, which is too similar to say they are separate because we can't believe that so many separate cultures have a Dragon God of Time with such similar names. This supersedes the Shezzar and the Divines case as the Cyrodilic people wouldn't give up the Aldmeri Pantheon and thusly merged the Nordic and Aldmeri versions. And we don't know with any canonical material the Selective succeeded just that a dragon break occured, and seeing how about that time Alkosh stopped Pelinial seems that they didn't succeed, remember these wizards weren't messing with a "raised" god but on of the original Divines who is an Et-Ada, and helped create Nirn. Again, about the Gods and Worship, the book brings no proof of this and yet he was already worshipped above all else in all cultures(except the Nords and Shor) meaning Akatosh was there before, this is proven by him being the lead Deity of the Ra Gada before they came to Tamriel. Finally the Lorkhan myth falls short as no race claims that Akatosh alone did it, the Elves believe Trinimac with support from the Divines, the Khajiit believe the Gods together did it, while the Humans tend to be angry it happened, depending on the Human, you have different suspects, and you can't say it's against humans and why the humans would worship him is because the Divines were upset about his attempt to trap them. And finally we see that Alkosh stopping Pelinial was the Avatar of Akatosh, which appears in Oblivion to defeat Mehrunes Dagon.
  • Member
    June 27, 2014

    After watching ESO I got an opinion that Gods and Worship are correct and whoever you worship becomes a deity. Altmer, Bosmer and Khajiit venerate completely different deities and each of them performs magical rites attributed only to the gods. Bosmer believe that the forest in Valenwood is violent and will destroy all Nirn if left unbound. A creature named Wilderking binds the forest, does not let it harm others. Khajiit believe in moons, and their temples of Two Moons are filled with all kinds of magical and spiritual effects.

    The strength and attributes of these deities is most likely influenced by the number of worshipers. 

    It all kind of waters down all deities, but that's the impression I got from ESO

  • Member
    June 27, 2014
    Also, Alduin is the firstborn of Aka-Tusk. Just ask Paarthunaxx.
  • June 27, 2014
    This seems wrong to me, as every race has their deities(the Elves worship several heroes, the Dunmer the Tribunal, etc.) but none of those Divines/Gods got Worahip without showing some power, which means Gods and Worship can't be right as it would mean before worship gods had no power, but to be worshipped they had to display power, Gods and Worship creates a paradox. The Et'Ada are the exception as they had the power they have before Worship, using to shape Nirn. Also, Vazgen, please source what the Bosmer believe about the forests, as I have seen nothing like that. Edit: I swear, if ESO is making Lore up, I may have to hurt someone.
  • Member
    June 27, 2014

    Like I said, it was the impression I got from ESO. Khajiit pray to the two moons and their souls get to Aetherius. I heard almost no mention of Alkosh and other divines from Khajiit, all they really care about are the moons. They curse by them, bless by them, build shrines to them. I haven's seen even one shrine to Alkosh. 

    As for gods having no power before people worshiping them, they had the power but gave it up to create Nirn. Spirits, both strong and weak did that and then retain their existence through worship. We only know of Et'Ada because of racial creation myths but I think there were a whole bunch of different deities who did that and racial pantheons created afterwards

  • Member
    June 27, 2014

    Any canon source for that?

  • Member
    June 27, 2014
    The Mysterium Xarses, and Kirkbride, who wrote for Oblivion
  • Member
    June 27, 2014
    There is no mention of Aka-Tusk neither in Mysterium Xarxes nor in Mythic Dawn Commentaries. And despite MK was Bethesda employee at some point his writings about Aka-Tusk never made it into the game therefore they are not canon.
  • Member
    June 27, 2014
    Oh, ok, but he still did work for KOTN and Shivering Isles