Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions


Xarxes, Oghma, Time... and Trees?

Tags: #Lore: Aedra 
  • Member
    October 10, 2019

    Penitent, know that the secret knowledge of the world has a guardian. Know that every triumph you achieve in your daily life, every quiet moment of success, is recorded by the One Who Watches. The great tree of life tracing the Altmer people is kept and held close by Xarxes himself, the scribe of the Divines.

    To complete your venerations here, intone:

    "By Five and Three I speak the secret words to the One Who Watches. May each of my days be worthy of script in his tomes." ~ The Everscriven Tome

    This is a something I've been meaning to get around to since DB's He Who Carves Wood in the Shape of Gods, a build I really like and very inspired by due to its focus on trees. I had attempted to explore the theme myself in a different way within a character profile, but never actually got around to actually writing what was in my mind or jotting down the connections and subtle links between Xarxes, Auriel, Hermaeus Mora, Oghma, language, and trees.

    The monks of the Serene Harmony Monastery stand as the most renowned "Aednavorith" scholars in all of Summerset. The study of genealogy and ancestry remains a subject of endless interest to all High Elves.

    Xarxes, The One Who Watches, the Elven god of ancestry and secret knowledge is, unsurprisingly, a very mysterious Aedra. Yet despite that his presence is incredibly complicated and his sphere vast and wide. There are few sources about him, so few and straightforward, in fact, that we can summarise them using very little space:

    Varieties of Faith pretty much tells us what we need to know as a starting point:

    Xarxes is the god of ancestry and secret knowledge. He began as a scribe to Auri-El, and has kept track of all Aldmeri accomplishments, large and small, since the beginning of time. He created his wife, Oghma, from his favorite moments in history. ~ Varieties fo Faith

    According to Telenger the Artificer, Xarxes' priesthood is devoted to preserving secrets and knowledge:

    Language, specifically the written word, is also of critical importance to the Altmer. Not only does it preserve our history, but it captures and defines our auspicious lineage and ensures that every Mer knows his or her place in the hierarchy. It is no accident that Altmeri society is the most orderly and structured in Tamriel—it is the will of Xarxes himself. The scholar-priests of the divine scribe, secretive though they are, are said to preserve an ancient tongue long forgotten to any but their order. In Helaameril’s “Conversations with the Etymon-Binders,” an anonymous scribe hints at tomes capable of producing tastes, smells, and dancing images, and texts that can be read by any gazing upon them—even the unlettered. Another form of word-magic, if Helaameril is to be believed. ~ Loremater's Archive: Words and Power

    Slightly more in-depth, the book Tu'whacca, Arkay, Xarxes links this deity with death-gods of other cultures:

    We begin with Xarxes, as his worship, at least as recorded in written history, predates that of both Arkay and Tu'whacca. An Elven deity who records the life-stories of all the races of Aldmeri, Xarxes appears in multiple creation or origin stories, many of which are inconsistent with each other. While some of these origins may be “false,” their multiplicity may also merely be a reflection of Xarxes’ many-fold nature.

    In the two most common origin myths, Xarxes appears either as Auri-El’s scribe, recording events at his side since the beginning of time, or as a Merethic Aldmeri priest of Auri-El who was elevated to divinity by the higher deity. The latter story is consistent with the High Elves’ conceit that they are directly descended from the Aedra, and can, in certain miraculous circumstances, apotheosize and re-ascend to godly status.

    For the Altmer, Xarxes records not just the life stories of individual Elves, but all the connections of lineage and heritance that bind them together and link them to their ancestors. As nothing is more important to an Altmer than his or her ancestry, it is easy to understand Xarxes’ paramount role in defining and maintaining status and stability in Summerset society. ~ Tu'whacca, Arkay, Xarxes

    Onus of the Oghma introduces us to the idea that a journal or diary in Tamriel is called an oghma, an important thing to remember later when talking about Xarxes' bride, Oghma:

    All Tamrielics recognize the duty to memorialize the events of our lives, a duty placed upon us by the Divines at the beginning of time. The most ancient reference we have to this "journaling onus" comes from the Aldmeriad, the great origin saga of the Elves, which quotes the god Xarxes, scribe to Auri-El:

    "As ye are true Children of the et'Ada, thou shalt honor us by honoring thy own lives. For in each of you is housed the Divine Spark, and thus the record of thy actions is a sacred duty. Keep, therefore, each and every one of you, an Oghma, an everscriven scroll which shall memorialize thy brief lives. Thus in at least this way shalt thy Spark be Immortal." ~ The Onus of the Oghma

    Lastly for now, the opening quote from the Everscriven Tome mentions a tree of life:

    Penitent, know that the secret knowledge of the world has a guardian. Know that every triumph you achieve in your daily life, every quiet moment of success, is recorded by the One Who Watches. The great tree of life tracing the Altmer people is kept and held close by Xarxes himself, the scribe of the Divines.

    To complete your venerations here, intone:

    "By Five and Three I speak the secret words to the One Who Watches. May each of my days be worthy of script in his tomes." ~ The Everscriven Tome

    That sentence, "by five and three" got me thinking so I'm also adding Thoughts on the Sacred Numbers just in case:

    As I sit here in the perfection of this garden, I contemplate the Sacred Numbers that we recognize as Auspicious and critical to the existence of the universe.

    Three is the Number of the Prime Celestials, as embodied in the sun and the two moons. It is also the number of my perfect daughters, which is why we shall produce no other heirs.

    Five is the Number of the Elements, for reality consists of Earth, Air, Water, Fire, and Aether. It is also the number of books I have open upon my desk at any given time.

    Eight is the Number of the Planets, as well as the sum of three plus five. Eight is also the limit I impose when drinking glasses of Gossamer Tawny Port with the members of my philosophical society—no more and no less.

    These are the Good Numbers. And the sum of the Good Numbers, which we call Sixteen, is a very powerful number indeed.

    We must beware the Bad Number, though, for Two lacks vision and attempts to display duality, which we all know is impossible. ~ Thoughts on the Sacred Numbers

    Xarxes resembles Hermaeus Mora with all those themes of watching, recording, collecting and preserving. It's pretty uncanny. We know Hermaeus Mora as the Daedric Prince of knowledge, memory and the tides of fate who, according to Imperial Census of Daedra Lords, is said to have been "born of thrown-away ideas used during the creation of mortality in the Mundus." Further, the book asserts that Mora's "influence on fate and time is real and unfeigned, implications of which tie this Prince directly with Akatosh, chief of the Nine Divines. Since Akatosh is the prime temporal spirit whose appearance led to the formation of the world, perhaps Hermaeus Mora speaks the truth." ~ Imperial Census of Daedra Lords.

    As players and enthusiasts we cannot know the truth, only versions of it as seen by the people and cultures in the world. In many of the sources we've looked at, there are references to various creation myths: Onus of the Oghma mentions an Aldmeriad, the great origin story of the elves; whilst Tu'whacca, Arkay, Xarxes references conflicting stories of Xarxes' origins and his many-fold nature. Neither the Aldmeriad nor the conflicting origin stories of Xarxes' divinity are available for us to read in game, but no matter which way we look at him, his links to the Dragon God of Time are plain to see. In the statue seen in the picture above, Auriel faces the congregation, back to back with his scribe, Xarxes.

    Is it plausible, then, that Xarxes is Hermaues Mora? The Gardener of Men tells us his gift to us, the Oghma Infinium, was written by his loyal scribe, Xarxes. That assertion would indicate Xarxes is both Auriel's scribe and Old Mora's, or that Hermaeus and Auriel are one and the same which would support what we know from the Imperial Census book.

    It's worth taking a step back at this stage to remember the concept of Aedra and Deadra are a mortal approach to categorising the original spirits, and that each of these mortal points of view are valid, shaping as they do the deities of their respective cultures. For the Altmer, Xarxes is a great ancestor spirit who is Auriel's Scribe and in no way connected to Mora, the non-ancestor, who doesn't appear anywhere in their myths.

    What if he is there, thoigh? But what if The Woodland Man of Nordic myth is present in merish belief? What if he's there under a different name? Who else besides Xarxes would be seen as a Demon of Knowledge to the Ancient Nords?

    Hermaeus Mora by Orm-Z-Gor

    Herma-Mora (The Woodland Man):
    Ancient Atmoran "Demon of Knowledge" who nearly seduced the Nords into becoming Aldmer. Most Ysgramor myths are about escaping the wiles of old Herma-Mora. Unlike his Bosmeri adherents, the Nords don't deny his Daedric nature. ~ Varieties of Faith: The Nords

    In the Ehlnofex language, Atmora means Elder Wood. Herma-Mora, the Woodland Man, is an enemy god, a testing god who tries to turn men into elves in Nordic myth. It's interesting that this antagonist isn't in Elven myths, after all one would think the mer would be chuffed to have the Woodland Man on their side.

    An unreleased manuscript, read by Rotten Deadite in this Memospore video on the subject of Nordic culture, details what could have been the Nordic creation myth circa TES IV: Oblivion:

    "Way, way back in the beginning when there was only the Grey Maybe, there was a god that is now refered to as Akatosh. He was not yet called by this name, nor was he the same being he is now generally considered to be. Then he was only the First, and contained within him all the mysteries of time - past, present, and future. It is when he forms within the Grey Maybe that time begins. Soon, other gods follow. Among them, Arkay, Mephala and others. Some of these gods lean towards the light of order, Anu, others more towards the chaos, Sithis. As time passes, these distinctions grow stronger and soon the division of Aedra and Daedra is created. Akatosh was drawn to neither. He was Time, all-knowing and all-seeing. Distinctions such as order and chaos meant little. Still, he recognised the split which had occurred and realised time must be represented among both groups. He then divided himself into two aspects: Akatosh, Dragon God of Time, and Hermaeus Mora, Daedric Lord of Past, Present, and Future."

    As mentioned in Varieties of Faith: The Nords, Herma Mora is present in one Aldmeri-born culture, that of the Bosmer. According to them, he is a "malicious trickster spirit (another one!) whose Bosmeri cultists say is not to be confused with the Daedra Hermaeus Mora. (Others deride this assertion.)" ~ Varieties of Faith: The Bosmer. It's worth noting Herma Mora isn't one of the Eight in the Wood Elven pantheon.

    Both the Altmer and Bosmer agree on the three primary time-gods, though. Governing the sphere of time, Auriel reigns supreme as their Dragon God. At his side stands his scribe, Xarxes, who records everything and keeps track of merish ancestry. So it's like we have time broken down into sections, the past is Xarxes' area of expertise, Auriel is time itself, while the third god of time, Y'ffre, is their god of the present.

    The overlap between these entities is obviously quite apparant. This is as it should be as we break through the metaphysical wall that divides cultural perspective and belief with that of monomythic and deeper metaphysics. That is to say, although each god is an entity in their own right, they are each subgradients of a larger soul. Anuiel created Auriel so that he might know himself, and in turn, Auriel gave the Aurbis time from whch other spirts formed. Each spirit, then, is but a subgradient of the Anuiel soul.

    Back down to Nirn. Y'ffre is the god of the Green, the very laws of nature.

    Y'ffre (God of the Forest):
    While Auri-El Time Dragon might be the king of the gods, Y'ffre is revered as the spirit of "the now." According to the Elves, after the creation of the mortal plane everything was in chaos. The first mortals were turning into plants and animals and back again. Then Y'ffre transformed himself into the first of the Ehlnofey, or "Earth Bones." After these laws of nature were established, mortals had a semblance of safety in the new world, because they could finally understand it. ~ Varieties of Faith

    Much like Xarxes in that Y'ffre's sphere is very broad. Being a time god of the here and now, a lot of his focus as intepreted by his faithful Spinners in Bosmeri culture is on stories and potential. The future is a nebulous thing for each story in the present, therefore he sort of represents possibilities and that each and every future is always true. This is best seen in Aurbic Enigma:

    The Boiche Elves were of the Earth Bones who most hearkened to Jephre and his greensongs. They did not build a Tower, they grew it, a great graht-oak whose roots sprang from a Perchance Acorn. And this was their Stone. And because the Acorn might perchance have been elsewhere, thus was Green-Sap manifold and several. And each could walk.

    Therefore each Green-Sap was also every Green-Sap. Within each were told all the stories of the Green, with every ending true, so doors therein were not always Doors Certain. But to this the Boiche-become-Bosmer became inured, and indeed grew to relish these Doors Equivocal, for such was their nature in the schism of the prism. In this way the Bosmer learned which songs made the trees dance, and which dances they might do. ~ Aurbic Enigma 4: The Elden Tree.

    Most obviously, though, Y'ffre is the God of the Forest. Trees in TES lore are an understated thing, often only being mentioned in lore in connection to the Hist. Yet I believe there is firm lore on trees, albeit lore that is buried as deep as roots. We know the name Atmora means Elder Wood. a place said to be frozen in terms of both time and temperature, and we know Herma Mora means The Woodland Man. We can say with a degree of confidence that water is memory, and as such is both Hermaeus Mora's and Xarxes' realm. We have also seen how time in merish culture seems to be governed by three deities, and how Hermaeus Mora is unequivocally linked to the Dragon God of time, as are Y'ffre and Xarxes.

    One of the things I like to think about when applying the role of trees to TES is the process of photosynthesis and transpiration. Trees take in water through their roots and, over time, the water travels up the tree and gets released, and photsynthesis is the chemical convertion of water, carbon dioxide, and light into sugar, creating oxygen as a by-product from the leaves. Needless to say this oxygen is vital for life.

    Water in TES is memory, or the medium by which memory is preserved and carried. Trees take in this memory and, like the water cycle, photosynthesis and transpiration, it gets converted into oxygen the people of Nirn need in order to breathe. Metaphysically, soemthing must be happening to the soul during this cycle, linking trees to the Dreamsleeve.

    I like to think that this means trees are the guardians of history, the keepers of memory. Sometimes we are lucky and some of this memory is preserved for us to experience ourselves. When a tree is damaged it produces resin, a liquid which covers the wound in order to protect the tree from pathogens. Sometimes this resin becomes fossilised and, well, we've all seen Jurassic Park.

    Like most things in TES, I believe this process is embodied by a being we met at the top of the page.

    Oghma.

    In the Onus of the Oghma, we learn that the word means journal or diary: "Keep, therefore, each and every one of you, an Oghma, an everscriven scroll which shall memorialize thy brief lives." Xarxes, the aspect of the Dragon God of Time whose role is to record the great tree of life, created a wife called Oghma from his favourite moments in history. I think the double-meanings here are important, and that the tree of life mentioned can be seen as a literal tree, just as Oghma is a literal embodiment of the best bits of history. Xarxes's book, his Oghma, is the both the Tree of Life and his wife - the thing he loves most dearly.

    We can use a bit of symbolism here, reminiscent of Yggdrasil in Norse mythology, and imagine a tree which is the entirety of history. The tree grows with each word, each story of mortal lives penend by Xarxes, and around this tree is coiled the Dragon himself, an ouroboros serpent. Oghma is the bark upon which the stories are written, she is the paper of the book. Oghma is the Tree of Life, she who preserves all, the keeper and guardian of all memory and history.

    This could link Oghma directly with Mara, the almost-universal fertility goddess associated with Nir from the Anuad, who is married to, or the concubine of, either Akatosh, Auiriel, or Lorkhan depending on religion.

    Yggdrasil by astridfreyjadottir

    So where does Hermaeus Mora fit in with? Herma Mora of the Nordic Pantheon, The Woodland Man, could well be present in merish belief as an amalgamation of the three merish time gods, Auriel, Xarxes, and Y'ffre. One governs the sphere of knowledge, secrets and record keeping, the other is the woods and trees, as well as the many possibilities of the future, and all of which are part of Time itself. Much like Xarxes is present in Arkay of the Divines along with Orkey an Tu'wacha, I think something similar is going on with the Nordic Herma-Mora. It would explain the link between what we see as a Daedric Prince and Aedric spirits, and possibly why both Xarxes and Hermaeus Mora both have a book called Oghma. For one the book is also their wife in the sense that he is married to it as it holds his life's work. For the other it is an infinite journal, the Oghma Infinium.The names and titles given to Herma-Mora by the Nords, Demon of Knowledge and The Woodland Man, are thus their culturally-coloured names of gods the elves are familiar with. It could be said that the Herma Mora of Nordic myth represents their entire concept of elves.

    In a way, Old Mora was telling us the truth when he says it was written by Xarxes - written by another aspect of himself. 

    Up the gradient ladder, they are all the same entity, all part of Time and Space who is Auriel, Akatosh, Alkosh, Lorkhan, Shezzar, Shor and all the other cultural names and reflections He has been given.

    The Tsar of the Seas

    There is a fantastic piece of Apocrypha that says it all way, way better than I: The Ogmismol by Dinmynal.

    Loathe, my claws | to rife these runes
    of hermetic find | in taproot time.
     
    The sheaf-tatters cast | aside to the sea
    their ink to run | and diagrams decay;
    to moldering creep | with mycelial scree,
    and other minutiae | unforeseen by Day.
     
    And shrewdest of these | in schematic-squeeze:
    the bulbous brine-brain | the eight-sucker’d flux
    whose skin engulfed | his selcouth siblings,
    and nurse-nest husk: | Would you know yet more?
     
    He who ‘graves heritance | upon the roots of time
    in the Dawn-dewy hummocks | of Old Mary’s shore-shelves.
    Called Tsar of the Seas | for his soul-skin's rhyme
    of cryptic coloration | to the doom-dumb elves.
     
    But profoundly poignant | prove the tawny knots
    of the womb-webb’d elves | to the lonely scribe.
    His scriven’d hide flexes |rustles his restless hearts,
    and to the Sea he dives: | Would you know yet more?
     
    Then froth’d the waves | and eddies spiraled in
    upon the detritus den, | the Undercliff's gloam,
    where black trunks | stack galleries in brim
    and heart-hollow fall | to write the loam.
     
    Up lurch’d the moss | with squamous hide twitch.
    And a scioptic ball | blinked traceries down
    to the limp cuttle stranded | on the Undercliff's itch
    and its wyrm-Hermit's frown: | Would you know yet more?
     
    To the mold-mounded dragon | the brine-brain spake:
    "O Hermit, teach me | your grow-glossy mysteries,
    for without Wife, Mother, Daughter | my empty hearts ache.
    Where is Love’s name | writ in these trees?"
     
    And the Hermit chuckled | at the tiny octopus.
    His ragged claw jabbed | to the eight-buttress’d Tree,
    the towering spine | in bone-spiral truss,
    afloat upon the Sea: | Would you know yet more?
     
    That tortile-torture, | that peritrichous Tree;
    the serpent-ribbed spire | where the moth nests rest;
    shelter of dusk-bathed duff | and Dawn-blazon’d Canopy
    where the Hermit hoards | engravings of rust.
     
    [… … …]
     
    Then spake the dragon: | "Seek ye there.
    In the xylem sleeve | of the realiz’d seed,
    in the excision enacted, | in the labyrinthine dare,
    read your solace creed." | Would you know yet more?
     
    So up wriggled | the eager brine-brain
    from the Undercliff’d litter | of the seeping rhizosphere.
    Drove his eye-nib through | the buttress-whorl’d grain
    and squirm-blink’d in | to the xylem smear.
     
    In mannish-mutant cowl | he fervent whisper-searches
    Atmora’s crag’d and canyon’d groves. | And his spellbook sorrow
    rivets the ash-browed Nords; | binds their hearts in lurches,
    and seeds their ears to grow: | Would you know yet more?
     
    But Ysgramor’s eye | sights the scribe-scrawls
    of his charcoal men | beguil’d into prose.
    And from his drum-lungs | a tempest-ripple squalls,
    scours back the forest fiend | to the sea-garden’d grottoes.
     
    The brine-brain spake: | "Love is not writ
    in the world tree’s veins; | not the warmth of the womb
    nor the ogham-scribbles | of my word-witch’s clit
    abide in that doom ." | Would you know yet more?
     
    The wyrm-Hermit’s claw | cleaved to blacken’d bark
    split a hollow heart-scroll | and unroll’d its ring’d runes.
    The Sun dazzled down | through the lignin-letter lock,
    its cryptic-script glittered | and emboss’d the mossy dunes.
     
    Then spake the dragon: | "Her skin is the vellum
    of History’s scroll; | amber-acid the ink
    in you, the eye-nib. | The name you thrum
    is the love you drink." | Would you know yet more?
     
    "Now wield, little scribe, | this twice-nibbed quill
    on your brine-brain skin and | Her wonder-wooden flesh."
    And the Tsar of the Seas | squelched up the lenticels
    of the wyrm-wing’d Canopy, | in suckle-suckered trace.
     
    Those ring-runed words | in spiral-spined flux
    erode the starry brunt | with his black-brine whorl,
    where epochs intermingle | in the south-point dusk
    of must-mystery’s rule: | Would you know yet more?
     
    Mire-spines rattle | their shuck’d leaves in laughs
    at the gilt-stilted gleam | of his wave-wavered words.
    They conjugate consciousness | in aurgone phloem’d drafts
    and sip his mannish mien | for strange and scaled wards.
     
    And the eight suckered sac | tumbled back to the mold.
    "My words do not wind | the world to my wish;
    and mortality mocks | the script-silks I fold,"
    sorry-spake the cuttlefish: | Would you know yet more?
     
    The moss-mound stirred | with the wyrm-Hermit’s squint
    and his aperture-eye flashed | through mystery-mottled skin.
    Then spake the dragon, | "Aye, lore-bound lint;
    for love requires life | to pulse from within."
     
    Then peeled the wyrm | askew the splintered scale
    of his lichen-licked chest, | unto its heartwood hollow,
    and the cuttlefish sang | that knowledge, newborn-frail.
    "By sacrificial ultrifidy | alone does Awe grow;
    not dead-letter’d design | but imperfect translation.
    ”My time-rhymes but seed; | all else is mutation."
     
    And the dragon’s daggers | gashed and rent the sage,
    three pith-pages pulled: | the fate-triplet heart
    to the starry tree bestowed; | Infinity of each Age.
    Then rang the crux-trunk | with lurid living art;
    with textual orgy| tattoo’d in rooted rune
    and leaf-splinter’d Sun: | or both, seal’d in Love:
    for Undercliff roots | twig-tangle and croon
    with the Canopy’s stems | that prickle-pierce the duff.
     
    Then mash’d the maw | of the mossy wyrm-Hermit,
    sucked down the slit squid : | autosarcophagy incarnate.
    His spineless bulk slinks | round his wood rondelet wife;
    and the downy-trunk thrills | and shivers with strife
    as his paper pulse pounds | hidden-History to life.
    His twisted-tongue twitches | in whisper-tender drawl:
     
    "All lore lives in Love | for you, my Ogmismol."
     
    Loathe, my claws | to rife these runes
    of hermetic find | in taproot time.

    In summary, maybe Xarxes is one part the Woodland Man of Nordic belief who is seen as a Demon of Knowledge by the enemies of the elves. He is deeply rooted in the Nordic psyche and culture as a being who terrorised them in the Elder Wood of Atmora. Xarxes created a wife called Oghma who represents and embodies history in its entirety, and she can be visualised a great Tree of Life. As above, so below, trees in TES could very well be the keepers and preservers of memory by way of the water cycle, photosynthesis, and transpiration, connecting them directly with the journey of mortal souls.

    As with all things TES, though, what is more important than anything above is that which you believe.

    Thank you to everyone who commented and discussed this while it was in the Workshop, the feedback meant a lot!

    Thank you for reading.

  • October 11, 2019

    Awesome to see this finished Phil, I'll try and think of a deeper comment too drop at some point this weekend but I think I said most of my thoughts (truly I am a master of words :P) in the WiP so I have less to say here. But this is a really interesting Lore Article, I love the ways you've connected these deities that, honestly feel completely unrelated and unite them around a concept that most of us don't at all associate with any of them. It's always fascinating to see your Articles because they introduce me to new sources and ways of thinking about the subject, just awesome stuff as always :D

  • October 11, 2019

    Awesome to see this finished Phil, I'll try and think of a deeper comment too drop at some point this weekend but I think I said most of my thoughts (truly I am a master of words :P) in the WiP so I have less to say here. But this is a really interesting Lore Article, I love the ways you've connected these deities that, honestly feel completely unrelated and unite them around a concept that most of us don't at all associate with any of them. It's always fascinating to see your Articles because they introduce me to new sources and ways of thinking about the subject, just awesome stuff as always :D

  • Member
    October 11, 2019
    It's cool, Deebs! I doubt there's much left to be said anyway after the workshop discussions. I intended to write it again and make it more accessible by starting with Old Mora, but then realised that would make it unlikely I'd ever do an article focusing on him. So it is what it is, and I appreciate the feedback you've given and our discussions about it. You realise, though, that if the connections I've made seem unrelated by most then there's a good chance I'm utterly wrong? :D I'm at peace with that. Introducing new sources and providing a different perspective is a good result.
  • October 14, 2019

    I mean, that's the main thing really, hadn't heard of half these sources before reading this article so none of the connections that you made in the article would have been things I could even think about. 'The Onus of Oghma', 'Aubric Enigma 4', 'Tu'whacca, Arkay, Xarxes'. All new stuff to me with an interesting perspective  to bind them all together. 

    I would be really fascinated by a Herma-Mora article from you, I've been kind of in love with the Skaal (which from my perspective is the closest direct link with the...tentacle monster dude) since reading The Story of Aevar Stone-Singer, just sort of really love that book more than any other in-game book for some reason. The connection they have with Mora fascinate me, and is basically the only connection that I know much about so it'd be interesting to see how he's viewed from other cultures. 

  • Member
    October 14, 2019
    It's interesting you mention the Skaal, Deebs. As you say, they're the ones who positively identify Hermaeus Mora the Daedric Prince with Herma-Mora the Woodland Man of Nordic mythology. I think there are only a couple of sources to draw upon that reference Herma-Mora, and in one of them he appears to Ysgramor as a hare. The Skaal also kinda sorta make the link that Mora is the enemy in Aevar Stone-Singer (although I don't think it's explicit). So what's curious is that somewhere along the line this tentacle monster is recognised as that same hare from the myths. I suppose that's what led to this article, to a degree, and asking who was that hare and why doesn't he appear in Elven myth. We've only really ever seen Mora as this monstrosity, but can you imagine a Skyrim in which we meet him and he's a hare? That would be really weird - to head towards the exit of Septimus' remote Outpost and be met by a hare rather than a pit of darkness or writhing tentacle thing. I suppose also that we've only really got the Skaal's word that the creature they see as Herma-Mora the Woodland Man is our Hermaeus Mora. Is it possible they conflated these two beings at some stage in the past but ultimately they are in fact two distinct entities? That's unlikely as I think it's pretty much a given that they are the same, but even so, the idea of Mora appearing as a rabbit seems antiquated and ludicrous despite the ability to appear as whatever he chooses. Let's hope he's something other than a tentacle monster in the next game!
  • Member
    October 15, 2019

    Before reading this I had no idea that Jephre (Y'ffre) was considered a god of time, which is interesting. I really hope that if the next TES game is set in Summerset or Valenwood, that Bethesda doesn't just have them worshiping the Eight, since it would be great to get more insight into the elven gods. Having the Nords worshiping the Eight/Nine instead of the Old Gods could be accepted if you were able to suspend your disbelief but it would be so against everything that the Altmer are to have the entire race worshiping some human gods.

    What does Elden Root as a Tower do? I know that White-Gold Tower is time and Crystal-Like-Law was space(?), so is Elden Root/Green-Sap possibility? 

  • Member
    October 15, 2019

    Of course you knew that, Golds! Y'ffre is their god of the now, tyiing her directly with the aspect of time that is the present. For the Bosmer, time is like a story and the spinning of stories is central to their culture and belief. Remember Aranias and the Wilderqueen quests? Still probably the best ESO questline in the entire game, amirite? In that arc we meet a Spinner, one of Y'ffre's priests, who sends us into Aranias' story so that we can influence the present through our actions in the past. By staying with her and standing by her side when she was originally alone, we massively influence her actions in the now by giving her something she never had: A friend.

    This storytelling is the core theme of who they are as a people, and that is reflected by Green Sap. Aurbic Enigma 4: The Elden Tree gives us our best source of Green Sap lore and pretty much tells us all we know. To start with, the Bosmer are pretty freaky-weird and seemed to have become who they are because they chose that story for themselves. This passage from Aurbic Enigma starts the tale of Green Sap and the Bosmer:

    The Aldmeri or Merethic Elves were singular of purpose only so long as it took them to realize that other Towers, with their own Stones, could tell different stories, each following rules inscribed by Variorum Architects. And so the Mer self-refracted, each to their own creation, the Chimer following Red-Heart, the Bosmer burgeoning Green-Sap, the Altmer erecting Crystal-Like-Law, et alia.

    Which is pretty damned interesting in itself as it asserts that the myriad merish races happened because the elves figured out they can change the story by creating Towers. The Bosmer, maybe because they were the forest-people, liked Y'ffre's Greensongs best:

    The Boiche Elves were of the Earth Bones who most hearkened to Jephre and his greensongs. They did not build a Tower, they grew it, a great graht-oak whose roots sprang from a Perchance Acorn. And this was their Stone. And because the Acorn might perchance have been elsewhere, thus was Green-Sap manifold and several. And each could walk.

    Therefore each Green-Sap was also every Green-Sap. Within each were told all the stories of the Green, with every ending true, so doors therein were not always Doors Certain. But to this the Boiche-become-Bosmer became inured, and indeed grew to relish these Doors Equivocal, for such was their nature in the schism of the prism. In this way the Bosmer learned which songs made the trees dance, and which dances they might do.

    So that gives us our fist major clue as to what the Green Sap and the Bosmer Tower does: It amplifies and reflects their nature and their nebulous concept of the future. It creates a reality in which all realities and futures are true. As we saw with the Wilderqueen, the future is a story and every ending to that story is possible when viewed from the here and now. We're diving head-first into some strange science now and the parallel worlds theory, but if you think about it, something as simple as what you will have for breakfast in the morning is a gateway to that. Maybe you have toast, but what if you decide to have cornflakes? It's possible that as soon as you make your choice, your timeline splits - In one relaity you have toast, in another you have cereal and from that point on there are two Andrews inhabiting two realities with two futures that could be very different from each other. I degress, and it's interpretation, but I like to think the Spinners' power is all about that concept and their ability to influence and unify those diverse possibilities that arise from a single moment.

    Moving on. We played around with Anumaril's Staff of Towers in Summerset's Psijic Order quests, so the rest of the Green Sap story is pretty familiar:

    Green-Sap’s Elves welcomed the Ayleids so long as the Heartlanders agreed not to dissonate the greensong. All agreed to this save Anumaril, who coughed into his hand unnoticed. He asked the Great Camoran to show him Green-Sap, and was brought to one that by happenstance stood then in Elden Root. Once within the great graht he passed through a Door Equivocal and found his desire, the Perchance Acorn. It was one of many, but for Anumaril one was enough.

    Next the fanglement: Anumaril brought forth Segment One among the roots and showed it to the golden nut, and this told an ending, so that the stone became a Definite Acorn. That Elden Tree would not walk again, but Anumaril yet had further intentions for it. Using his dentition as tonal instruments, he dismantled his bones and built of them a Mundus-machine that mirrored Nirn and its planets. And when he had used all his substance in fangling this orrery, he placed the segment-sceptre within, hiding it between the Moons.

    Then he waited—but what he waited for did not eventuate, and perchance he’s waiting yet. For

    Anumaril had hoped to convert Green-Sap into White-Gold, and thereby make the Heartlanders' realm anew. However, Anumaril did not know, and was not able to know, why his plan went awry. You see, Ayleid magic is about Will, and Shall, and Must—but under Green-Sap, all is Perchance.

    By Anumaril's actions, Green Sap stopped being uncertain and became definite: the Perchance Acorn became a Certain Acorn when Anumaril defined its ending.  However, that ending of the story has not yet happened:

    The Ayleid fangler’s plan could not succeed—and yet neither could it fail. For this is a story that has not yet found its ending.

    So the Tower still exists, still pumps out the Bosmeri take on reality and defines them and is, in turn, defined by them to keep their culture extant. But it has become more and more defined, much like the Bosmer themselves - They who were Boiche-become-Bosmer.

    Or that's my take, at least. It's all about interpretation.

  • Member
    October 15, 2019

    Of course I remember Aranias, and yes that is an amazing questline. I love that in one of the dlcs you can talk to Mel Adrys about how he was saved by the Wilderqueen and the only explanation he got was to thank you. Even after losing herself she still remembered the changes you made to her story, just as she said you remain her friend.

    So if I'm reading that right there are multiple Green-Sap, or is it that before Anumaril Green-Sap had the potential to be any story and so there were "multiple"? Knowing the Bosmer it's probably both.

  • Member
    October 15, 2019

    I remember that, it's in the Gold Coast iirc. A very nice touch. I also quite like that Aranias wasn't a Bosmer, that race never mattered or was never even a consideration. 

    I think both is the answer. Or rather, each and every graht oak is as much Green Sap as each other. Aurbic Enigma implies that it was only Elden Root's graht oak, Elden Tree, that stopped moving around. But we know Falinesti kept striding between its seasonal resting sites until sometime in the Third Era. Both Elden Tree and Falinesti are Green Sap but neither tree is the Tower itself, yet both are the Tower as are any other graht oaks out there.

    So I think it's a paradigm in whch, before Anumaril, Green Sap was every story within every graht oak and each story within them was true, but one by one endings started to creep into the stories within them, causing them to take root and become more defined. Conceivably and to move the subject to the next logical level, when the last graht oak takes root and stops moving, maybe the end of the Bosmer's story will be at hand and their Tower will fall. I'm not sure if we've reached that point by the time of the Fourth Era, or even what that would mean for the Bosmer, though. An ending to a Tower doesn't necessarily mean the end of a civilisation, and an ending could just be a new beginning. For the Wood Elves who are very hard to define and who skirt the boundaries of Aldmeri creation myths, the fall of their Tower could be just another transition into something else. From Boiche to Bosmer to ...? Who knows!