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Lorebook Discussion: Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi

  • Member
    March 5, 2019

    With ESO Elsweyr on the horizon and the likelihood of more Khajiiti lore coming with that, now seems like a good time to revisit and discuss some of the things we already know about the cat-folk. The format here is pretty simple, we'll start by taking a look at Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi to her Favored Daughter, then I'll leave a few words about what I like regarding the book, and from there we can talk about anything about the book we want. Everyone's welcome!

    Rather than quote the entire book (link to TiL is above), Nara Narra has kindly given us permission to use her narration videos. It's much nicer to have the book read to us while we type, so here's Nara reading Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi Part One:

    Need more Nara? Catch her on Youtube, Twitch and Twitter. Thank you Narra :)

    This is one of my favourite books because it shows so much of the Khajiiti people's outlook and unique take on life. There is so much in this one book to talk about, especially because the cat-folk have their own view on mythological events we're familiar with.

    What are your thoughts?

    Please discuss and comment below.

  • March 5, 2019

    This careless attitude towards Daedra speaks volumes about the Kitties, and this is a thing I particularly dislike about them. Such a mindset can lead to so many potential disasters, it's scary.

  • Member
    March 5, 2019

    Justiciar Thorien said:

    This careless attitude towards Daedra speaks volumes about the Kitties, and this is a thing I particularly dislike about them. Such a mindset can lead to so many potential disasters, it's scary.

    That's fair enough. Would you say that maybe their view on what we'd call Daedra indicates they are more accepting of another's nature? Like, they accept that Merrunez is a destructive little tyke, but they see him as a kitten because of that. It seems to me they accept that as just being who he is, something he can't help, so maybe they're less judgemental as a culture. It could also mean they think it's a life-stage and he'll grow out of it. That's interesting to think about.

  • March 5, 2019

    Paws said:

    That's fair enough. Would you say that maybe their view on what we'd call Daedra indicates they are more accepting of another's nature? Like, they accept that Merrunez is a destructive little tyke, but they see him as a kitten because of that. It seems to me they accept that as just being who he is, something he can't help, so maybe they're less judgemental as a culture. It could also mean they think it's a life-stage and he'll grow out of it. That's interesting to think about.

    Not really. As I see it, it's more like they are more accepting of the Daedric aspects in both others and themselves. Indifference towards flaws and evil aspects, imo, is no good. If you don't recognize a flaw as bad, you'll never correct it, never grow, never improve. The Khajiiti way encourages improving one's technique (of deceiving others) but never one's personality or worldview. It leads to the same "good enough" approach that Bethesda takes with bugs))

  • Member
    March 6, 2019

    Justiciar Thorien said:

    Not really. As I see it, it's more like they are more accepting of the Daedric aspects in both others and themselves. Indifference towards flaws and evil aspects, imo, is no good. If you don't recognize a flaw as bad, you'll never correct it, never grow, never improve. The Khajiiti way encourages improving one's technique (of deceiving others) but never one's personality or worldview. It leads to the same "good enough" approach that Bethesda takes with bugs))

    That's quite a conclusion to come to, Thori. May I ask how you've come to that opinion? The way I see it, the Khajiit are pretty heavily into self-improvement but not just their physicality. In Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi we could possibly say they, like cats, are a prideful people and quite competitive:

    And Fadomai said, "When Nirni is filled with her children, take one of them and change them. Make the fastest, cleverest, most beautiful people, and call them Khajiit."

    And Fadomai said, "The Khajiit must be the best climbers, for if Masser and Secunda fail, they must climb Khenarthi's breath to set the moons back in their courses."

    And Fadomai said, "The Khajiit must be the best deceivers, for they must always hide their nature from the children of Ahnurr."

    And Fadomai said, "The Khajiit must be the best survivors, for Nirni will be jealous, and she will make the sands harsh and the forests unforgiving, and the Khajiit will always be hungry and at war with Nirni."

    We can supliment that by looking at another source, Master Zoaraym's Tale, in which we are told:

    "One of the most important lessons we teach from the Two-Moons Dance is the lesson of rejecting one's vanity. I understood then the importance of achieving a personal synchronicity with one's body and mind, of rebuffing outside influences of no importance, but I admit I had not accepted the lesson in my heart. I knew I was good, but my pride was hurt."

    These temples appear to be pretty common in Elsweyr and the lunar clergy take a very active role in guiding their feline flock, plus the Khajiit have the Mane who is their spiritual leader. For me, that's enough to say that as a culture the strive towards harmony and improvement of all aspects of their lives is important to the Khajiit.

    Now it could be they recognised a long time ago that they are naturally prideful and so need more spiritual guidance, but to say they are indifferent towards flaws and cultivate a "good enough" approach doesn't seem to have much to support it.

  • Member
    March 6, 2019
    Apologies in advance if this looks like a wall of text. I'm on mobile, right now. It's interesting how the Khajiit view Anu as the antagonist in their version of the creation myth. This could suggest that maybe there's no distinction between the two forces until after their conflict is over. For all I know, Fadomai might be Anu, and Ahnurr might be Padomay. Also, a good chunk of the book gives us a lot about the Khajiit's perspective on Azura: And all Fadomai's children left except Azurah. And Fadomai said, "To you, my favored daughter, Fadomai leaves her greatest gift. To you Fadomai leaves her secrets." And Fadomai told her favored daughter three things. And Fadomai said, "When Nirni is filled with her children, take one of them and change them. Make the fastest, cleverest, most beautiful people, and call them Khajiit." And Fadomai said, "The Khajiit must be the best climbers, for if Masser and Secunda fail, they must climb Khenarthi's breath to set the moons back in their courses." And Fadomai said, "The Khajiit must be the best deceivers, for they must always hide their nature from the children of Ahnurr." And Fadomai said, "The Khajiit must be the best survivors, for Nirni will be jealous, and she will make the sands harsh and the forests unforgiving, and the Khajiit will always be hungry and at war with Nirni." I like those lines because it seems to point out that Azura played a huge role in making the Khajiit who they are now, though I find it odd why the Khajiit don't worship her more often or build temples in her name. She seems like the Khajiits' answer to the Nords' Kyne.
  • March 6, 2019

    Paws said:

    That's quite a conclusion to come to, Thori. May I ask how you've come to that opinion? The way I see it, the Khajiit are pretty heavily into self-improvement but not just their physicality. In Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi we could possibly say they, like cats, are a prideful people and quite competitive:

    And Fadomai said, "When Nirni is filled with her children, take one of them and change them. Make the fastest, cleverest, most beautiful people, and call them Khajiit."

    And Fadomai said, "The Khajiit must be the best climbers, for if Masser and Secunda fail, they must climb Khenarthi's breath to set the moons back in their courses."

    And Fadomai said, "The Khajiit must be the best deceivers, for they must always hide their nature from the children of Ahnurr."

    And Fadomai said, "The Khajiit must be the best survivors, for Nirni will be jealous, and she will make the sands harsh and the forests unforgiving, and the Khajiit will always be hungry and at war with Nirni."

    We can supliment that by looking at another source, Master Zoaraym's Tale, in which we are told:

    "One of the most important lessons we teach from the Two-Moons Dance is the lesson of rejecting one's vanity. I understood then the importance of achieving a personal synchronicity with one's body and mind, of rebuffing outside influences of no importance, but I admit I had not accepted the lesson in my heart. I knew I was good, but my pride was hurt."

    These temples appear to be pretty common in Elsweyr and the lunar clergy take a very active role in guiding their feline flock, plus the Khajiit have the Mane who is their spiritual leader. For me, that's enough to say that as a culture the strive towards harmony and improvement of all aspects of their lives is important to the Khajiit.

    Now it could be they recognised a long time ago that they are naturally prideful and so need more spiritual guidance, but to say they are indifferent towards flaws and cultivate a "good enough" approach doesn't seem to have much to support it.

    Well, from all the things I've seen about Khajiit. Not just this book but also all the other books featuring the Kitties, and also from their behavior and dialogue in the games.

    I never said only improve their physicality. They improve skills that help them to survive and use the situation for their profit. But they rarely think about morality and what is right and wrong. They don't seem to give much thought to categories like good and evil, they only think about what is profitable for them. What is profitable, not what is right. That's what I have issues with.

    As far as I can tell, the Lunar Clergy is a later development, it wasn't around from the start of their history. Also, they seem to have a hard time maintaining states, demonstrate a tendency towards anarchy.

    Also, the fact that they see Anu as an antagonist figure makes me think that at some point in their development as a race, something about the got twisted really nasty. I wonder if that is a result of some Daedra's actions.

  • Member
    March 6, 2019

    Justiciar Thorien said:

    Well, from all the things I've seen about Khajiit. Not just this book but also all the other books featuring the Kitties, and also from their behavior and dialogue in the games.

    I never said only improve their physicality. They improve skills that help them to survive and use the situation for their profit. But they rarely think about morality and what is right and wrong. They don't seem to give much thought to categories like good and evil, they only think about what is profitable for them. What is profitable, not what is right. That's what I have issues with.

    As far as I can tell, the Lunar Clergy is a later development, it wasn't around from the start of their history. Also, they seem to have a hard time maintaining states, demonstrate a tendency towards anarchy.

    Also, the fact that they see Anu as an antagonist figure makes me think that at some point in their development as a race, something about the got twisted really nasty. I wonder if that is a result of some Daedra's actions.

    That makes sense, I see where you're coming from. It's hard to get a complete sense of the race even now after seeing their culture and society in their own lands of Khenarthi's Roost and Reaper's March, but those areas do shed a bit more light on the Khajiit as a people. We've seen the more civilised areas in which the clan mothers are at the top of their social hierarchy, and I'm really hoping we get to meet prides of nomadic Khajiit in Elsweyr and see some of the territorial disputes for myself.

    In regards to their morality, I think a lot of their point of view about good and evil is couched in metaphor such as Lorkhaj's heart being filled by the great darkness, but I would say that to me Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi has a very strong moral narrative. I mean, you can imagine this story being told on a monnlit night around a warm fire, the scent of spices and moon sugar cakes being cooked by the clan wafting on the breeze, and the clan mother imparting her knowledge and sense of right and wrong to her daughter. It's quite a forgiving narrative, too, as we see by Nirni forgiving Lorkhaj. I personally see a lot of mercy and acceptance in the tale, as though the Khajiit acknowledge bad things but always see a silver lining.

    I think they do tend towards enjoying mischief, and it's quite surprising some of their more morally grey gods like Rajhin or Baan Dar aren't mentioned in the creation myth. Those deities hold a special place for the cats but I don't think it's for their maliciousness. I think rather those gods represent ultimate examples of the virtues we'd call sly but to the Khajiit are gods-given survival skills: They are more ninmble, and like cats, they find delight in the subtle skills of deception and stealth. However, I'm not certain we can say they practice those skill on one another in an anarchic social structure, stealing from each other and the like or trying to maximise their own profit for selfish ends. That doesn't seem to be all that common, and when it does occur I feel like the Khajiit in society perceive the perpatrator as someone who has lost their way, someone who is dancing to the beat of the dark moon.

    Your last point is especially interesting to think about. Ahnurr as the stasis figure is the one who is villified, while Fadomai as the force of change is the one shown in a more favourable light. To me, that says quite a bit about the Khajiit and their love of life. To them life isn't a prison, and even Nirni forgives Lorjhaj for his actions because she can create yet more life and that makes her happy.

    A-Pocky-Hah! said: Apologies in advance if this looks like a wall of text. I'm on mobile, right now.

    It's interesting how the Khajiit view Anu as the antagonist in their version of the creation myth. This could suggest that maybe there's no distinction between the two forces until after their conflict is over. For all I know, Fadomai might be Anu, and Ahnurr might be Padomay.

    Also, a good chunk of the book gives us a lot about the Khajiit's perspective on Azura: And all Fadomai's children left except Azurah. And Fadomai said, "To you, my favored daughter, Fadomai leaves her greatest gift. To you Fadomai leaves her secrets." And Fadomai told her favored daughter three things. And Fadomai said, "When Nirni is filled with her children, take one of them and change them. Make the fastest, cleverest, most beautiful people, and call them Khajiit." And Fadomai said, "The Khajiit must be the best climbers, for if Masser and Secunda fail, they must climb Khenarthi's breath to set the moons back in their courses." And Fadomai said, "The Khajiit must be the best deceivers, for they must always hide their nature from the children of Ahnurr." And Fadomai said, "The Khajiit must be the best survivors, for Nirni will be jealous, and she will make the sands harsh and the forests unforgiving, and the Khajiit will always be hungry and at war with Nirni."

    I like those lines because it seems to point out that Azura played a huge role in making the Khajiit who they are now, though I find it odd why the Khajiit don't worship her more often or build temples in her name. She seems like the Khajiits' answer to the Nords' Kyne.

    Interesting stuff to think about, Pocky! The role reversal is exciting, and I think you raise a good point. It's all couched in metaphor, though - Anhurr is the father figure who doesn't want any more children because it will ruin the happiness he and Fadomai share. That does seem to put him in the stasis role, I think, for he doesn't want that to change. But Fadomai wants that change, and enjoys giving life to the point of going as far as to trick Ahnurr into getting her pregnant again. That's some dark shit right right there, and no wonder Ahnurr was pissed! Can you imagine this on the Jerry Springer or Jeremy Kyle show? :D

    You raise a really good point about Azurah, too. Pretty much all we know about how the Khajiit view her comes from this book where she doesn't seem to share many attributres with the Azura we're familiar with to the point that she could well not be the Daedric Prince Azura but rather a different being entirely. I think you're right in that she is like a catalyst and fills that same role Kyne does for the Nords. In the story Nirni and Azurah are born pretty much at the same time and have a sibling rivaly - Nirni is the world, Azurah is the dusk and dawn, but it's Azurah who is Fadomai's favored daughter to whom she gives her secret knowledge about creation. From a triple goddess point of view, the Khajiit might have two mother goddesses with Khenarthi in the maiden role. That alone is quite compelling and potentially shows the impotance the Khajiit place upon their mothers.

  • March 6, 2019

    Paws said:

    That makes sense, I see where you're coming from. It's hard to get a complete sense of the race even now after seeing their culture and society in their own lands of Khenarthi's Roost and Reaper's March, but those areas do shed a bit more light on the Khajiit as a people. We've seen the more civilised areas in which the clan mothers are at the top of their social hierarchy, and I'm really hoping we get to meet prides of nomadic Khajiit in Elsweyr and see some of the territorial disputes for myself.

    In regards to their morality, I think a lot of their point of view about good and evil is couched in metaphor such as Lorkhaj's heart being filled by the great darkness, but I would say that to me Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi has a very strong moral narrative. I mean, you can imagine this story being told on a monnlit night around a warm fire, the scent of spices and moon sugar cakes being cooked by the clan wafting on the breeze, and the clan mother imparting her knowledge and sense of right and wrong to her daughter. It's quite a forgiving narrative, too, as we see by Nirni forgiving Lorkhaj. I personally see a lot of mercy and acceptance in the tale, as though the Khajiit acknowledge bad things but always see a silver lining.

    I think they do tend towards enjoying mischief, and it's quite surprising some of their more morally grey gods like Rajhin or Baan Dar aren't mentioned in the creation myth. Those deities hold a special place for the cats but I don't think it's for their maliciousness. I think rather those gods represent ultimate examples of the virtues we'd call sly but to the Khajiit are gods-given survival skills: They are more ninmble, and like cats, they find delight in the subtle skills of deception and stealth. However, I'm not certain we can say they practice those skill on one another in an anarchic social structure, stealing from each other and the like or trying to maximise their own profit for selfish ends. That doesn't seem to be all that common, and when it does occur I feel like the Khajiit in society perceive the perpatrator as someone who has lost their way, someone who is dancing to the beat of the dark moon.

    Your last point is especially interesting to think about. Ahnurr as the stasis figure is the one who is villified, while Fadomai as the force of change is the one shown in a more favourable light. To me, that says quite a bit about the Khajiit and their love of life. To them life isn't a prison, and even Nirni forgives Lorjhaj for his actions because she can create yet more life and that makes her happy.

    From what I've seen, it seems like the Khajiiti society is pretty diverse. There are some who are trying to maintain ordered states under the rule of the Mane, some secluded villages and tribes in the jungle (where you would probably find those Clan Mothers and such), some nomadic groups and also all kinds of banditry, slavers and wildlings. Not to mention the folks who stick with the Aldmeri Dominion and the Empire. I'm pretty sure all of these groups have each their own views and different ways of life.

    Yet, behind all the details that make up their everyday concerns, it doesn't seem like they, as a culture, even have the concept of good and evil. To them, good means beneficial to oneself/one's clan and bad means harmful to oneself or one's clan. Their whole moral system stands on that pragmatic idea. Their acceptance, which you like so much, stems from that too. As long as something doesn't bring a Khajiit benefit or harm, it's none of their concern. They care about their clan, their friends, etc., the rest of the world is none of their concern. They say it's bad to steal from your own clan, but nothing is wrong with stealing from some stranger. Even the way they joined the Dominion after the Void Nights demonstrates exactly that attitude.

    I've never said the Khajiit were malicious. If anything they are indifferent. They just mind their own business.

    The whole idea of stasis being bad and change being good might have originated from fear of death. Obviously, they don't have any memory of the life before Nirn (unlike the other races, and this is where, I suspect, some Daedra - could it be Azura? - has played their role), they don't know the peace of Aetherius. To them, it's something unknown, and therefore scary.

  • Member
    March 8, 2019

    Justiciar Thorien said:

    From what I've seen, it seems like the Khajiiti society is pretty diverse. There are some who are trying to maintain ordered states under the rule of the Mane, some secluded villages and tribes in the jungle (where you would probably find those Clan Mothers and such), some nomadic groups and also all kinds of banditry, slavers and wildlings. Not to mention the folks who stick with the Aldmeri Dominion and the Empire. I'm pretty sure all of these groups have each their own views and different ways of life.

    Yet, behind all the details that make up their everyday concerns, it doesn't seem like they, as a culture, even have the concept of good and evil. To them, good means beneficial to oneself/one's clan and bad means harmful to oneself or one's clan. Their whole moral system stands on that pragmatic idea. Their acceptance, which you like so much, stems from that too. As long as something doesn't bring a Khajiit benefit or harm, it's none of their concern. They care about their clan, their friends, etc., the rest of the world is none of their concern. They say it's bad to steal from your own clan, but nothing is wrong with stealing from some stranger. Even the way they joined the Dominion after the Void Nights demonstrates exactly that attitude.

    I've never said the Khajiit were malicious. If anything they are indifferent. They just mind their own business.

    The whole idea of stasis being bad and change being good might have originated from fear of death. Obviously, they don't have any memory of the life before Nirn (unlike the other races, and this is where, I suspect, some Daedra - could it be Azura? - has played their role), they don't know the peace of Aetherius. To them, it's something unknown, and therefore scary.

    I think that's accurate regarding the diversity of Khajiiti society. If we take a look at the sources to back that up, Provinces of Tamriel tells us:

    The Khajiit of the southern Elsweyr jungles and river basins are settled city dwellers with ancient mercantile traditions and a stable agrarian aristocracy based on sugarcane and saltrice plantations. The nomadic tribal Khajiit of the dry northern wastes and grasslands are, by contrast, aggressive and territorial tribal raiders periodically united under tribal warlords. While the settled south has been quick to adopt Imperial ways, the northern nomadic tribes cling to their warlike barbarian traditions.

    It's something they acknowledge themselves which is quite amusing, the name of their homeland, Elsweyr, comes from a proverb of theirs which goes "A perfect society is always found elsewhere."

    You raise an interesting point about their pragmatism, and I can source an example of that in The Eagle and the Cat:

    Then, past all expectation, help arrived from an unforeseen direction: over the western waves came the Elves of Summerset, bringing physicians, healers, desperately needed supplies.

    And one more thing: hope. Hope that Elsweyr would survive.

    At first, many Cats were suspicious. Never before had the haughty High Elves helped the Khajiiti—why now? But their canonreeves passed among us, as if unafraid of the flu, and explained: the Altmer did it not from friendship, but from policy. We needed their help now, and they would need our help later. Invaders were coming to southwest Tamriel, they said, and the High Elves could not repulse them without Khajiiti claws at their side.

    To fight against mutual enemies—ah, that was a logic we Cat-Folk could understand. So we accepted the aid of the High Elves, and their sly cousins the Wood Elves, and gradually the Knahaten Flu began to recede. And when Queen Ayrenn of Alinor proposed the alliance treaty of the Aldmeri Dominion, we took plume in claw and signed it.

    Now, fellow Khajiiti, we have been through the forges of torment, and with our new allies, we emerge stronger than ever. We welcome the chance to test blade and edge against these invaders, to spill their blood and take their bright objects.

    For now is the time of the Dominion.

    So we can definitely see how the idea of "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" is something they find easier to grasp than altruism, but what i find interesting especially after watching the Khajiit in Ayrenn's Dominion is that it leads to a surprising loyalty. Like, the alliance may have started out of simple mutual benefit, but the ties of friendship and trust take root in the kittie's hearts after.

    Also, I never said you said they were malicious :)

    Okay, so you mention death and that brings us into a new topic. I'm not certain it's accurate to say they don't know the peace of Aetherius as they identify their own afterlife in Litter-Mates of Darkness:

    When true cats die, their souls are lifted by Khenarthi and flown to the Sands Behind the Stars, to play and prey until the Next Pounce.

    When bent cats die, their souls are dragged down by Namiira into the Dark Behind the World, to serve the Heart of Lorkhaj until their tails are straight.

    But it's fair to say they have a healthy survival instinct! That source above actually imforms us about their morality a fair bit, imo. As we saw in Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi the Khajiit have no concept of Aedra and Daedra - the gods and demons are just one big family to them. They recognise some amongst that family as being bad influences, but I don't think they have a tendency to blame these beings as other cultures and races would. By that I mean, they don't seem to blame Sheggorath for skooma-addiction, for example, but rather accept personal responsibility for their actions. In contrast, someone from another race might pray to their gods for protection against evil and for strength of will to overcome, but a Khajiit's spirituality is more internal. I think they strive for inner harmony so thay they don't start dancing the Bent Dance:

    For a true cat to see a dro-m'Athra do the Bent Dance is to feel his tail twitch in time, and feel the pull of the Darks. As each twitch pulls the true cat further from the moons-light, the cat's shadow grows longer and more bent. And if the tide of the Darks grows greater than the tide of the Lights, the true cat is lost, and becomes a bent cat.