Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions


Research: Murkmire

Tags: #ESO  #Argonians  #Research 
  • Member
    November 8, 2018

    I'm still trying to wrap my head around this all. I keep picking up on what seem like contradictions. Nisswo Xode used the analogy of flowing with the river rather than trying to alter its course. The river of change flows regardless of the Argonian's existence, much less the Shadowscales, and Uaxal made it pretty clear that everything about his people will inevitably change. It seems to me to require the utmost arrogance to act out the "will" of Sithis in the mortal realm despite knowing you are not an exception to his rule. It's playing god. What if at some point an Argonian decides that in order to act out his truth, he must kill Uaxal? I doubt Uaxal would relent and accept, as his truth demands that he keeps living. "The will of Sithis" seems to be nothing more than chaos. You can do anything with any justification and still be acting within his will. If Sithis is who the Shadowscales answer to, then they're just a band of murderers with a highfalutin doctrine. I love the stuff about change, and even moreso that Uaxal makes art to represent that, but using inevitable change as a justification for assassination...eeeehhh, that's where I hop off. Unless I've misunderstood something?

    Edit: They can't stop change, so they embrace change to an extreme degree. I think that was my point. 

  • Member
    November 8, 2018

    From what I understand (I've yet to play the dlc so am going on what's here) the Shadowscales assassinate to prevent things from stagnating, in the case of the dispute it had "lasted too long" so both parties and whatever the dispute was concerning were not changing which is not following the flow of the river, it is stopping it. Stagnation isn't great since things niether improve or worsen so the Shadowscales give it that nudge forwards regardless of the eventual outcome.

  • Member
    November 8, 2018

    I don't think you're missing anything, and it is proper messed up. I mean, assassination and justification for that is always going to be a hard pill to swallow, whether it's a Morag Tong agent clutching an honourable writ, a Dark Brotherhood murderer excusing his actions as the Night Mother's commands or what the Dread Father wants, or a Blades Agent queitly eliminating what they consider a threat to Imperial peace. All those things are playing god, right?

    I'll be the first to admit that Shadowscales and assassins are not an area I am particularly comfortable with, so by and large my perspective is aligned with yours. The only thing I think is missing to make make more sense is a degree of immersion I fail at portraying here. It's like... These lizards have no centralised government. They are a society made up of independent tribes, each with their own Hist who, in turn, has its own agenda. Sometimes tribes affiliate, sometimes they are at war with each other, but they are all connected via a sort of collective unconsciousness. An Argonian's soul will go back into the Hist to be reincarnated at some future time, maybe passing through a different Hist and belonging to a different tribe. That's not really just something they believe, it's more like an established and verified certainty... Albeit one very subtley conveyed so as maintain nuance.

    It's damned hard to convey because they are so alien, but we have this understanding that each Argonian born of the Hist are in tune with each other. Despite being independent tribes, they all share a common concept of what we would view as faith because of that collective unconsciousness and shared origins. I'm going to drop in a source that'll be far more useful than my ramblings: Tribes of Murkmire, a series with one or two new additions that can be collected in the zone, and I'll draw attention to the last section:

    While I have learned a tremendous amount about individual tribes, I feel that I'm still missing some crucial insights on inter-tribal relations. There is a bizarre kind of fraternity here that contradicts almost everything I've seen. Despite the violent raids, the dead-stealing, and the poaching, the Argonians of different tribes still look upon one another as egg-brothers and egg-sisters. For example, just the other day I saw a family of Bright-Throats playing teeba-hatsei with a handful of Tum-Taleel raiders. This was only a few hours after a violent clash claimed the life of one of the Tum-Taleel. I've never seen the like. It's as though there's an enforced forgetfulness, or a culture of exceptional forgiveness that defines all inter-tribal relationships.

    At least some of this fraternal behavior must be rooted in their shared racial narrative. The tribes of Black Marsh have had to set aside their differences on countless occasions to repel invaders from Morrowind and Cyrodiil. They also seem to understand how much they rely upon one another—far better than most men or mer I've met. The Tum-Taleel recognize that they need other tribes to create homes and goods for them to steal. The Miredancers know that they need the Dead-Water tribe to defend their borders and fend off the larger swamp predators. The Black-Tongues know that they need the Hee-Tepsleel to raise the crops they use in their alchemical brews. The Bright-Throats know that they need the Black-Tongues' Shadowscales to enforce "swamp law" upon crooked outsiders who disrupt honest trade. On and on it goes.

    Religion also plays a role. I asked my friend, Eutei, how they could be so forgiving. He made specific reference to their nebulous belief in reincarnation.

    "We are all people of the root," he explained. "A Black-Tongue may become a Miredancer in the fullness of time—and a Miredancer a Black-Tongue. Only the Hist knows such things. To hate each other is to hate ourselves. And what profits a Saxhleel to hate himself? Better to forget and move on."

    After some contemplation, I can't help but think that we could all use a little forgetfulness every now and again.

    So I guess, while they have embraced change to the extreme, it's a unified embrace which is not just part of their culture but more like a biological condition. The idea of one Argonian playing god and killling another without what the society as a whole would agree as being a justified reason would make that Argonian a rare abberation. There are such individuals, and accounts of respected leaders who end up going fruitcake, and at such times the entire tribe and even collections of tribes rise up to take action, but mostly I think it's biologically encoded into them to go with the flow and embrace a sort of fatalism.

  • Member
    November 8, 2018

    Golden Fool said:

    From what I understand (I've yet to play the dlc so am going on what's here) the Shadowscales assassinate to prevent things from stagnating, in the case of the dispute it had "lasted too long" so both parties and whatever the dispute was concerning were not changing which is not following the flow of the river, it is stopping it. Stagnation isn't great since things niether improve or worsen so the Shadowscales give it that nudge forwards regardless of the eventual outcome.

    This is accurate in that circumstance. neither party inheriting that farm were an optimal choice. The female drug addict wanted to sell up and move on, while it was the other one who orchestrated the entire situation so he alone would profit. Neither were a good choice, and stagnation would be the result if either one were sided with. For nobody now would willingly work with the latter, and the former would be pretty much selling the farm to the latter anyway. The shadowscale found another option, one which kept "the river" flowing.

  • Member
    November 8, 2018

    The reincarnation would also play a role in it since they would not see it as that argonian being "killed" like the humans and elves do. Each Argonian that the Shadowscales kill will have their soul return in time and be changed in some way as the "river" dictates.

  • Member
    November 9, 2018

    Paws said:

    I think it's biologically encoded into them to go with the flow and embrace a sort of fatalism.

    Fatalism -- that's the word I was looking for. 

    Paws said:

    These lizards have no centralised government. They are a society made up of independent tribes, each with their own Hist who, in turn, has its own agenda. Sometimes tribes affiliate, sometimes they are at war with each other, but they are all connected via a sort of collective unconsciousness. An Argonian's soul will go back into the Hist to be reincarnated at some future time, maybe passing through a different Hist and belonging to a different tribe. That's not really just something they believe, it's more like an established and verified certainty... Albeit one very subtley conveyed so as maintain nuance.

    The lack of a centralized authority on anything social, moral, or legal is what I think creates the strong aversion I have to Argonian society as a whole. The religious and metaphysical elements of their collective unconscious is downright fascinating, an in fact reminds me a lot of the Skaal and how they regard the All Maker. 

    While I have learned a tremendous amount about individual tribes, I feel that I'm still missing some crucial insights on inter-tribal relations. There is a bizarre kind of fraternity here that contradicts almost everything I've seen. Despite the violent raids, the dead-stealing, and the poaching, the Argonians of different tribes still look upon one another as egg-brothers and egg-sisters. For example, just the other day I saw a family of Bright-Throats playing teeba-hatsei with a handful of Tum-Taleel raiders. This was only a few hours after a violent clash claimed the life of one of the Tum-Taleel. I've never seen the like. It's as though there's an enforced forgetfulness, or a culture of exceptional forgiveness that defines all inter-tribal relationships.

    At least some of this fraternal behavior must be rooted in their shared racial narrative. The tribes of Black Marsh have had to set aside their differences on countless occasions to repel invaders from Morrowind and Cyrodiil. They also seem to understand how much they rely upon one another—far better than most men or mer I've met. The Tum-Taleel recognize that they need other tribes to create homes and goods for them to steal. The Miredancers know that they need the Dead-Water tribe to defend their borders and fend off the larger swamp predators. The Black-Tongues know that they need the Hee-Tepsleel to raise the crops they use in their alchemical brews. The Bright-Throats know that they need the Black-Tongues' Shadowscales to enforce "swamp law" upon crooked outsiders who disrupt honest trade. On and on it goes.

    Religion also plays a role. I asked my friend, Eutei, how they could be so forgiving. He made specific reference to their nebulous belief in reincarnation.

    "We are all people of the root," he explained. "A Black-Tongue may become a Miredancer in the fullness of time—and a Miredancer a Black-Tongue. Only the Hist knows such things. To hate each other is to hate ourselves. And what profits a Saxhleel to hate himself? Better to forget and move on."

    After some contemplation, I can't help but think that we could all use a little forgetfulness every now and again.

    This I like. I haven't put together any meaningful thoughts on it yet, but there's something...something to it. "To hate each other is to hate ourselves." Seems like wisdom that men and mer have yet to obtain. 

  • Member
    November 11, 2018

    Legion said:

    The lack of a centralized authority on anything social, moral, or legal is what I think creates the strong aversion I have to Argonian society as a whole. The religious and metaphysical elements of their collective unconscious is downright fascinating, an in fact reminds me a lot of the Skaal and how they regard the All Maker.

    This I like. I haven't put together any meaningful thoughts on it yet, but there's something...something to it. "To hate each other is to hate ourselves." Seems like wisdom that men and mer have yet to obtain. 

    Argonians make excellent NPCs. In terms of story and narrative, the weirdness and metaphysical stuff really allow for lots of different stories to be told without the usual barriers a setting like TES has through established lore. Individually, the lizards can represent a tribe's particular culture and say the awesome stuff we as readers find compelling - they're definitely full of the holism like we see from the Skaal regarding their All-Maker -  but to actually play as one remains incredibly hard :D So I don't really share your aversion to their society as a whole and I really like the diverse tribes and freedom those cultures give to players and writers, but I do have a certain inability to be able to think like them. As you say at the end, despite being to outward appearences a primitive society, they have collectively attained a wisdom the rest of us have yet to achieve. I can't help but feel that is because their gods, for lack of a better term, are so close and communicative. Each individual knows who they are and their place in the grand scheme of things. In many ways, it's the lukiel Argonians who are the most fascinating. By looking at their perspectives being outside of that "oneness", the contrast provides a lot of clues into the minds of normal Argonins and is probably a safer place to approach playing as an Argonian.