[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Paws]Paws[/url] said:[/b]

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Patriarch]Patriarch[/url] said:[/b] Of all the dungeon DLCs in the game, Wolfhunter is by far my favorite. Imo, the storylines are the best, and it provides, as you mentioned, the amazing opportunity for lore exploration and expansion.[/blockquote]

[blockquote] I need to play Moon Hunter Keep for a proper overview but I'm inclined to agree at this stage. I really like Horns of the Reach and all the lore that brought to us about Nedic clans becoming Reachmen over the millenia, and of course minotaurs. But so far Wolfhunter's edging it - quality of writing, story, and what it gives overall to the setting just seems to have upped the ante. If Vykosa as Khajiit werewolf and one of the first ever lycanthropes is as cool as it sounds, and we learn a bit more about how that happened in Moonhunter, I think I'll be able to say I 100% agree. So far looks promising. [/blockquote] [/blockquote]

I would have been happy to take any of the TV members through the dungeon, but alas, everyone jumped ship to PC. lol

[blockqquote] On a related note, the Silver Dawn as a faction is pretty interesting. I need to dig into that a bit... were they first introduced in the Orsinium dlc? I remember the quest in the Argent Mine delve as being really compelling and having way more dialogue than a regular delve quest. Was this faction also in the base game somewhere? [/blockquote] [/blockquote]

I remember them being in the base game, but it's been a while since I've completed the base game quests. I could be forgetting something.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Ilanisilver]ilanisilver[/url] said:[/b]

“A heart for a heart or a head for a head, does Hircine truly honour his bargains? I wonder if the Glenmoril Witches were informed of this catch that the curse would only perpetuate until they themselves became the hunted.”

Also, this. Yes, exactly. I could see Hircine failing to divulge that little detail not out of duplicity but just because he’d see it as common sense. You live by the sword, you die by it. No reason to question. 

[/blockquote]

YES! I also see it as a way for Hircine the Hunter to "bait" or lure potential prey. Baits and lures are never obvious.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/AxiusRevan]A-Pocky-Hah![/url] said:[/b]

God, I wish my internet connection wasn't so inconsistent, otherwise I might have bought ESO Plus and continued on where I left off with Elmerlot. I think he's still in Auridon doing the Queen's work IIRC. :P

But yeah, this kinda cements my view that not all Daedra should be viewed in black and white. I think both co-exist in a similar way like Yin and Yang. Kyne and Hircine could be seen as two sides of the same coin. One is usually synonymous with nature's beauty while the other is with its savagery. Makes you wonder what other Aedra and Daedra have this kind of relationship. Right of the bat I could see Julianos/Hermy Mora, Arkay/Molly B, and Stendarr/Malacath just to name a few.

[/blockquote]

I think that's pretty much how I see it too. I mean, if we take things at face-value it all started with the Interplay and each spirit is a subgradient of those original forces. So, Anu creates Anuiel so that he may know himself and Sithis is born from the things Anuiel ponders he can't be. Then comes time, Akatosh, and with time there is now room for other spirits to come to be. We could possibly think of it as each god/goddess or demon is a fragment of Anuiel's understanding of himself. Like, if we put love, mercy, brutality, passion, logic, and all the rest together we have a complete being. Individually they are fragments of something greater and i like to hace fun with the overlapping spheres. Maybe we can picture there being two shadows for each god - eight Aedra, sixteen Daedra. Slightly off-topic, but fun!

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Ilanisilver]ilanisilver[/url] said:[/b] I like. Hircine is fun to imagine, as I picture him as this ultimate mix between nature’s savagery tempered the least bit by keen intelligence and, almost, refinement. He is a Daedric Prince after all. For a fictional character of great power, it’s an incredibly attractive combination. Especially in light of what you found that suggests he’s not all that concerned with worship. A “god” who’s secure enough not to need worship and supplication? Nice.[/blockquote]

Right?! It is refreshing - It's like he just is, a force of nature that persists and is almost nonchalant about how he's viewed. Maybe we could go as far as to say, given that he has followers from all paths and alignments, that the only requirement he imposes is that each are true to themselves and their own nature? From brutal blood-sportsmen to peaceful wyresses of the Ilessan Hills, perhaps the common demoninator is that they all just in tune with the cycle of life. It's interesting, though, how the Bosmer use his name interchangeably with Y'ffre. Not surprising seeing as they all have inate shape-shifting powers, but especially intriguing when we look at how Y'ffre and Kyne overlap to the point of being the same. Regardless of their names, there are only ever Eight Divines no matter the faith. In Bosmeri religion there is no Kynareth but Y'ffre fills the same role she does. So if Kyne is Y'ffre and Y'ffre is Hircine, when we're looking at Kyne's more feral aspects and thinking about that old Hunting Ritual of Froki's, who's really guiding our arrows when we set out to hunt?

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Patriarch]Patriarch[/url] said:[/b]

I would have been happy to take any of the TV members through the dungeon, but alas, everyone jumped ship to PC. lol

I remember them being in the base game, but it's been a while since I've completed the base game quests. I could be forgetting something.

[/blockquote]

Xbox was dying, dude. I could only buy digital copies so needed to upgrade. A choice between the new Xbox or a PC and not have the same Skyrim mod restrictions, be able to use ESO addons, and not have to pay XBL Gold on top of ESO Plus made PC a more sound long-term investment. You're still helping, though :)

I'll definitely need to look into the Silver Hand in more detail. I liked that Orsinium quest, plus the mounts and new pet have some good lore attached to them. Werewolf hunting is morally grey at times, but doesn't stop it being pretty cool to look at individual justifications.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Patriarch]Patriarch[/url] said:[/b]

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Ilanisilver]ilanisilver[/url] said:[/b]

“A heart for a heart or a head for a head, does Hircine truly honour his bargains? I wonder if the Glenmoril Witches were informed of this catch that the curse would only perpetuate until they themselves became the hunted.”

Also, this. Yes, exactly. I could see Hircine failing to divulge that little detail not out of duplicity but just because he’d see it as common sense. You live by the sword, you die by it. No reason to question. 

[/blockquote]

YES! I also see it as a way for Hircine the Hunter to "bait" or lure potential prey. Baits and lures are never obvious.

[/blockquote]

I like that, guys, very cool. Either explanation is good thought-food!

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Paws]Paws[/url] said:[/b]

Werewolf hunting is morally grey at times, but doesn't stop it being pretty cool to look at individual justifications.

[/blockquote]

I literally just realized. Werewolf hunters are actually really in line with Hircine's faith themselves. They take the hunters, the werewolves, and make them the prey. Which, as we all know, is something Hircine loves, and is inherent to a lot of him (see the Wild Hunts, for example). This raises a lot of questions, of course; Hircine has repeatedly shown to really value his 'were-children', but the werewolf hunters are an idea that he fundamentally is tied to. Also, what if there's werewolf hunters who actively worship Hircine? Questions, questions....

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Tenebrous]Tenebrous[/url] said:[/b]

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Paws]Paws[/url] said:[/b]

Werewolf hunting is morally grey at times, but doesn't stop it being pretty cool to look at individual justifications.

[/blockquote]

I literally just realized. Werewolf hunters are actually really in line with Hircine's faith themselves. They take the hunters, the werewolves, and make them the prey. Which, as we all know, is something Hircine loves, and is inherent to a lot of him (see the Wild Hunts, for example). This raises a lot of questions, of course; Hircine has repeatedly shown to really value his 'were-children', but the werewolf hunters are an idea that he fundamentally is tied to. Also, what if there's werewolf hunters who actively worship Hircine? Questions, questions....

[/blockquote]

It seems to me that Hircine is more about the Hunt in whatever form it takes, and less about the hunters/prey. He values the were-beasts (and created them) because the represent they apex predator - the ultimate hunter. But if the prey turns the Hunt around and becomes the hunter, so much the better.

It also occurs to me that the Hunt is Hircine's private theater...or colosseum. All he is looking for is a good show for his own entertainment. He provides the gladiators...the hunters and the prey. He especially likes the were-beasts probably because he believes they will provide the most entertainment. 

If this is true, the Tamriel is his ultimate theater. 

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/ChrisDiokno1]Chris[/url] said:[/b]

KyneXHircine is the true Elder Scrolls OTP

[/blockquote]

Lol, I can imagine the fanfic now... Kyne and Hircine: The Shower Scene.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Tenebrous]Tenebrous[/url] said:[/b]

I literally just realized. Werewolf hunters are actually really in line with Hircine's faith themselves. They take the hunters, the werewolves, and make them the prey. Which, as we all know, is something Hircine loves, and is inherent to a lot of him (see the Wild Hunts, for example). This raises a lot of questions, of course; Hircine has repeatedly shown to really value his 'were-children', but the werewolf hunters are an idea that he fundamentally is tied to. Also, what if there's werewolf hunters who actively worship Hircine? Questions, questions....

[/blockquote]

Now that's a fun thought! We catch a small glimpse of Hircine's glee in the Ill Met by Moonlight quest in TES: V if we choose not to hunt the werewolf, but to up the ante on that would be very interesting. A member of the Silver Dawn praying to the Father of Manbeasts to ensure a successful manbeast hunt... And Hircine rubbing his paws in delight at the hunt to come, maybe even making things a bit harder for the pack in order to level the playing field a bit. Would suvh a werewolf hunter keep his faith on the dl, though? Cool thing to think about, for sure.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Patriarch]Patriarch[/url] said:[/b]

It also occurs to me that the Hunt is Hircine's private theater...or colosseum. All he is looking for is a good show for his own entertainment. He provides the gladiators...the hunters and the prey. He especially likes the were-beasts probably because he believes they will provide the most entertainment. 

If this is true, the Tamriel is his ultimate theater. 

[/blockquote]

I think that's spot on. The way he's portrayed in MoS as seen in the art is from a position where he can see all of it. He plays with his spear when things get really exciting! Tamriel is far more unpredictable, probably offers many unexpected wins and defeats, and it's interesting to think he may appreciate lycanthropic losses and victories in equal measure.

But is there a deeper layer there? A lycanthrope may represent the ultimate predator and fulfil its purpose just by being as such, but I'm not sure if that makes Hircine a bit disconnected with the Y'ffre thing. Like, Y'ffre gave all Bosmer this ability to revert back - to shapeshift - to the formlessness of the Dawn. It could be why there exists this association with Hircine.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Mercurias]Mercurias[/url] said:[/b]

Of all the gods and Daedra, Hircine really does seem to be the being that most embodies his aspect. Molag Bal is probably second, because even when he grants power, he does so in a way that hurts you, marks you forever, and reminds you every day that his hands made you what you are. The ones who curse him the loudest are his chosen daughters of Coldharbor.

[/blockquote]

Maybe, yeah. I can see that. The Princes are defintely what they are but Hircine and Molag Bal are perhaps more forthright. Although Dagon could be another contender as he is pretty much destruction incarnate. Strange that they don't lack for nuance, though, and despite them being so recognisable there is still room to reinterpret them.