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Weekly Discord Discussion 2: Writing/Reading about Characters

    • 1467 posts
    May 29, 2019 1:37 AM EDT

    Weekly Discord Discussion - Test Two

    As you may have seen, the Tamriel Vault has recently started our own Discord Server, which can be found by following that link. One of the new types of content that we've started over there were 'Weekly Discussions' which were basically just channels dedicated to a single topic that could be incredibly broad, or really specific. We've given them a week to generate discussion, then copied the comments into a sort of Log so that anyone who missed it can see what was discussed, maybe join in with their own thoughts on the topic or respond to what people said. 

    It's obviously more interactive if you join in on the next one (starting in a few hours) but it's something that we hope works really well. 

    The first topic was simply "What are 'canon' characters that you enjoy writing or reading about" which is explained in a bit more detail in my first post.

     

    Dragonborn2021

    So here's a second weekly discussion, some would say that the sequel is always worse but I point out The Dark Knight and end my case.

    The idea of these Weekly Discussions is that the entire discussion will happen here, but be logged and then posted on the Vault eventually (whenever we go live). After it's been logged, and thus ended, the Weekly Discussion will be deleted so we don't have temporary text channels clogging up the server.

    __

    This week, we've got a really cool concept (IMO). What are 'canon' characters that you enjoy writing or reading about. This will exclude Original Characters, or other self-made characters like your version of The Last Dragonborn or Champion of Cyrodiil, but isn't limited to TES and Fallout. If your a fan of writing stories based on Aragorn or Gimli, or reading hardcore Palpatine/Darth Vader slashfics, then here's the place to discuss those characters, and why you like writing/reading about them.

    It can also be specific author's versions of characters. For example, Sotek's Aela is awesome even though I don't usually enjoy reading Aela.

    __

    If you have any questions about the theme for this discussion than ask away, if not then hope you enjoy the discussions :D

    Dragonborn2021 pinned a message to this channel. See all the pins.04/07/2019

    Dragonborn2021

    Note: The topic does have a bit of a fanfic tilt to it, but you can loop it into Lore or in-game books (or characters that appear in multiple TES/Fallout games). If you want to discuss how a particular Lore book handles a character, or how Mannimarco is better in Oblivion or whatever, then feel free.

    Ilani

    Hm...well, I guess I’m really basic. I love reading fanfic for romance, so my favorite stories tend to include characters I find attractive - Farkas, Vilkas, Argis the Bulwark. I’ve written these guys as “leads” in my fanfic, and I like reading about them in others’ stories as well. I also like writing the librarian at the College of Winterhold; you just can’t help but have fun with his dialogue, imagining all the horrible things he’s done to mages who’ve mishandled his books. And the dragons - Paarthurnax tends to give me Falkor the Luck Dragon vibes, so he’s fun to read and write.

    I would love to read a story about the Augur of Dunlain. In a story I started on TV but discontinued, the Augur was going to have a big role. He was CRIMINALLY underutilized in Skyrim. I mean, of all the things wrong with the storylines of that game, the writers shit the bed the hardest with the Augur’s story. It could have been a damn masterpiece.

    Tene-bro

    In ES, first and foremost is Sotha Sil. Love me that cyborg demigod elf

    Paws

    @Ilani yeah what is up with that Augur thing ?! The whole questline feels like the writers wrote something interesting but 85% got cut, and the Augur feels like the biggest casualty of those edits. I still don't understand the Farkas thing, either. That's a greater mystery than the Augur of Dunlain.

    Ilani

    @Paws, yeeeahhh...well, I do make Farkas less stupid and more let’s say...visceral...in my stories. It never made sense to me that someone with the IQ of a turnip is in the ruling circle of an elite body of mercenaries. Even ones in Skyrim. The twins didn’t get a fair shake by the writers either. I mean, Vilkas is supposed to be this hot-headed asshole and he is at first, but after you’re married, he’s absolutely lovey-dovey and super romantic. And Farkas is sort of an ass. All that stuff gets corrected in fanfic which is probably why I love Skyrim fanfic so much. There’s so much to work with.

    And yeah, the Augur. I think you’re right. I think they wanted to do more with the College questline but maybe ran out of time or something. That’s the only excuse for the Augur getting such a ridiculously tiny role in what could have been an amazing story.

    Dragonborn2021

    I love Farkas in your story Ilani, he was part of why I decided to start this discussion in the first place. I think your Farkas is just a far more interesting version of the character. The vanilla character of Farkas is just...so dumb, I mean, part of is that he constantly seems to go on about how he'd rather not think, which can be fine, but Bethesda decided to go full 'idiot' with him.

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    Oh shit...yeah the Augur could be fascinating, or should be fascinating? Regardless it's exactly the sort of character that I think could be done really well in a story (and that's only partially because he was barely in Skyrim). I can't even think of any stories that I've read that include it.

    Dragonborn2021

    Interestingly, the Companions in general are usually some of my favorite characters in stories. Mostly this means Aela, Kodlak (Straag Rod specifically, love how Liss wrote him), Farkas (Ilani's Farkas is best Farkas IMO) and sometimes a bit of Skjor or what's his face...Smithman. The others are nice, but they always come across as a bit side-character-y.

    I think it just shows, either that people love writing the Companions or that they're a bit easier to write because they do genuinely have character, even if it's a bit weak. The point is that I think some of the best stories on the site (at least) tend to have a focus on the Companions, and they do them really well, keeping the characters from the game somewhat intact but actually making them interesting.

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    Outside of TES, I'll start with my weird love for Count Dooku in Star Wars. I think specifically to a story that I read that follows the incredibly common, 'character gets shoved back in time to something, something' where Dooku is sent back before Episode 1 in order to be a good guy instead of a dick. It was kind of fascinating because the story focused more on his relationship with Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon. Which, yeah is just kinda fascinating and a fairly enjoyable story.

    Basically, he's a character that barely got any real characterization in the movies (though the book of the movie is awesome for Dooku), and since most things he's in are now non-cannon...Anyway, the point is, I like Dooku in fanfics because he's got a relatively interesting character but there's a lot of ways to make him awesome. There's also just 'decent villain' Dooku in a lot of things, or Dooku in most of the Legends stories. Dooku's just kinda great if you mostly ignore the movies where he doesn't get any real characterization.

    Ilani

    I was hoping at first that they were doing a “stupid like a fox” type thing and make him not as dumb as he appeared, but there was just so much. But I’m glad you think my Farkas ranks among the best. I read a version of Farkas on AO3 where he was so traumatized by what happened to them when they were little that he didn’t speak until he was around ten, which was why he appeared less intelligent than everyone else. He just lost the ability to find his words. That made a lot of sense, too.  SMITHMAN. So he shall forever be named.

    One thing I love about the Companions is their whole neutrality stance. It’s fascinating, when you think about why they do what they do. So Skyrim will always have a voice, despite which political party is in power, despite who holds the throne. And when you think about it, sometimes their choice is devastatingly hard. When they really believe fighting on one side or the other would be right. Or when their neighbors are fighting and dying in a war and they have to choose to abstain from the conflict. You know that just has to eat them up inside. It would take a massive amount of strength to maintain that neutrality in the face of conviction, you know?

    Ilani

    I like Dooku too. Maybe because in the movies it was Christopher Lee, and his presence just sells anything. Anything. So I bet I’d like him in fanfics, too, if I read Star Wars fics. A friend of mine writes Poe Dameron fics, so I read those, but I’m just not a Star Wars geek, so so much of the places and non-movie canon just goes over my head. I enjoy them, because who doesn’t like Poe? But they’re as hard to follow as it would be for someone reading TV’s fics who don’t follow Skyrim/Fallout.

    Outside TES, it’s hard to say. I’m just not a “fan” of much. Characters that I like, I guess...I love Sunny from Into the Badlands. And Bajie. Probably because Nick Frost is a genius, and I’d probably watch/read anything with one of his characters in it.

    Let’s see. Ooh! Faramir from LOTR. I want a movie where he stands up to his father and refuses to go back to Osgiliath. And Tommy Shelby from Peaky Blinders. I have no idea why I loved him enough to build a whole Skyrim character/profile/story around him, but he’s captivating. I think there’s so many characters in movies and TV who waver from their character. But Tommy is consistent all the time.

    Dragonborn2021

    Yeah, I think it might just be a problem involving cuts. Maybe at some point the Companions were all deeper characters but it feels like their entire faction was...cut down? Smoothed over to be a bit more simplistic.

    I don't know, but it makes them seem really interesting to write because there are snippets of fascinating character traits in all of them that just don't get developed. The way Farkas seems more in control of the Beast than Farkas, or...is it Skjor or Aela that is sort of a Stormcloak supporter?

    The neutrality to me is definitely one of the most fascinating parts of the organization, and how some of them really seem to struggle with it. It's something you just don't really see in the same way for other factions (I mean, the College just seems to not give a shit about the rest of Skyrim) but makes them way more interesting.

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    Damn lost my big comment so I'll leave a smaller one.

    I started with reading stuff before TES so for me I kind of still struggle to get into most stories. I think part of it is always that it's easier for me to just create my own characters and roleplay them so I feel less of a desire to read stories even if they're excellent. That and until recently I exclusively liked to read completed stories, just sucked at keeping up with new chapters but I'm getting better so I'll probably try and read more on-site stories.

     

    But yeah, Christopher Lee really sells Dooku, or anything I suppose :smiley: But he's at least 80% of the reason that I ever read anything with the character. I used to be a huge Star Wars nerd as well, so it kind of just made sense for me to read the fanfics...Though honestly I'm not super into them, just don't enjoy most of them.

    OH shit, yeah Faramir would be really great to read more of. I'd love to read a story focusing on him completely. Maybe even a story that ignores the Fellowship but follows what he's been doing the entire time Boromir has been away. Yeah there's a lot that could (and probably has) been done with him.

    A-POCKY-HAH

    I really want to expand more on the Companions and College of Winterhold. I enjoyed Kraver's interpretation of Urag. Love that Orc Librarian.

    Since my current story will be set in an alternate steampunk-ish early 20th century 4th Era (damn, I need to figure out a proper name for it), there are lots of opportunities for me to play around with the various Skyrim factions.  The Companions for instance would have this trouble trying to find its purpose in a modernised world (like the samurai in the Meiji Era) and just end up being a social (drinking) club.

    Dragonborn2021

    Yeah Karver's Urag is pretty great (even if I haven't read all his stuff yet...which I think I should probably preface every sentence here with). Was it...shit I can't remember whose story it is off the top of my head but I remember someone having a really solid Tolfdir that I enjoy... Eh, hopefully it'll come to me eventually.

    But yeah, the College really is ripe for writing about, for me mostly because of how much you can expand on how it works (as a College) and the downtime between world-saving adventures. There's more room for originality I suppose, or at least full originality. With the Companions, TG, DB, we get a pretty solid idea for how they function on a daily basis but the College makes next to no sense without a bit of creativity from a writer.

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    Yeah, can see how the Companions would be rather tough there. Unless they turned into a full on Mercenary Group that was more focused on money and political power than honour, but then they barely feel like the Companions. Could be interesting to see them struggle with finding that purpose though.

    Ilani

    I would love to see a story based on the theory that the Eye of Magnus caused the Winterhold catastrophe. I’m not good at writing timey-wimey things, but it would be a blast to read.

    A-POCKY-HAH

    Writing time travel is hard. You gotta make sure things make sense while simultaneously giving your readers a mindfuck.

    Tene-bro

    ^

    A-POCKY-HAH

    Like a few weeks ago, I watched an anime which had a time travel arc, and till this day I'm still left confused. Still a great arc though.

    Ilani

    And that they’re consistent. Absolutely, deadly consistent, your time travel rules never wavering. My stuff tends to be character driven rather than plot driven, so paying that much attention to rules when I write takes the fun out of it.

    Dragonborn2021

    I couldn't even imagine trying to write time travel, especially if it's a more complicated look at it. I have no real issue reading stories with the simple 'a single person went back in time to a specific day, and that's it' or your "Groundhog Day' style time travel.

    Basically if the 'future' is deleted after someone time travels, I can get behind that. But if there are issues with the time travel it just gets complicated and bogs down stories too much for me.

    Could be awesome if done well though, I'd definitely love to see a story focusing on the Winterhold Catastrophe in general, and that Eye of Magnus idea is pretty awesome sounding.

    Dragonborn2021

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    So, does anyone have any opinions on non-TES stories and characters?

    A-POCKY-HAH

    I've got something on the Bloodborne NPCs. Basically I just want their backstory be told like what VaatiVidya did, and maybe even expand on them more.

    Especially the Old Hunters like Ludwig, Lady Maria and Gehrman.

    Dragonborn2021

    That sounds awesome, just sorta completely what I'd want from a Bloodborne fanfic (which I just realized I've never even looked at.)

    I was actually specifically thinking after your first message about a story focused on Gehrman working his way through the Dream, but that's mostly because I don't know enough about Ludwig and Maria because I still haven't played The Old Hunters. Shit now I kind of just want to have a half Sekiro, half Bloodborne style game where you play as Gehrman, wielding his badass Scythe and all. Going to have to read up more on him because half of my memory about him feels shoddy.

     The other character I think I'd like to follow would be Eileen. I think you could tell a really interesting story about her putting down other Hunters and follow the sort of mental route of how difficult it might be to start that journey.

    Basically, I agree with that, I think an expanded backstory for all of the Old Hunters would make for a really interesting read. I think there's a lot that can be done with Bloodborne and the NPC's are really the most interesting direction you could go.

    Tene-bro

    Bit out of left field, but a lot of the re-interpreted characters from Transformers: More Than Meets the Eye are amongst my favorite comic book dudes in a long time

    Sad gay robots in space FTW

    Sad gay robots in space FTW

    Dragonborn2021

    Nah, can't be out of left field here :P

    I'll admit that I've never been able to get into Transformers, like at all. Not sure if there was a lull with it when I was younger or what, but I just don't remember it being a big deal then so my first real experience with them were the movies so... yeah that's probably enough explanation.

    So, what's the core concept to More Than Meets the Eye?

    Tene-bro

    Uh, basically? The war between the Autobots and Decepticons is over, and a bunch of Autobots can't adapt to peacetime. So, they decide to go searching for some mythological heroes of theirs

    Except they all kind of suck at this.

    It's basically a space dramedy with horror elements and a lot of surprisingly relevant commentary

    Actually won awards for Best Comic. From Comixology, if I recall

    Dragonborn2021

    Shit that sounds really interesting, seems like it ditches my least favorite part about most Transformers stuff (the Decepticon/Autobot war always feels a little lame to me). Might have to give it a look at some point.

    Tene-bro

    It's really well done. Bonus points in that it actually uses a lot of lesser-known characters as well (Tailgate, Swerve, Whirl, etc)

    Dragonborn2021

    I literally have no idea who any of those characters are so good on them for using lesser-known characters.

    Tene-bro

    They actually are pre-existing dudes from the 80s toyline. Like everybody else, they had "bios" on the toy boxes to offer loose characterization. Unfortunately, a lot of those guys aren't used im actual fiction, for a variety of reasons

    But, this meant that Roberts (the author) could really make them uniquely "his". (Of course, he did that with dudes like Megaton and Ratchet as well...)

    Dragonborn2021

    Yeah, I assume it's more a case of me literally just knowing some of the core characters. I mean obviously I think there are some villain of the week type characters that I'm vaguely aware of from some of the TV shows in the 2000's but after that it's literally just whoever you consider well known.

    Tene-bro

    True. And Transformers is kinda like Marvel or DC with the whole "multiverse" stuff, so characters can vary wildly

    Hence why in MtMtE Megatron is a failed philoshper/revolutionary turned remorseful pacifist instead of 80s doomsday villain

    The_Lex

    He was way better in the late '80s.

    I was pretty young but I remember begging my mom for either a constructicons or dinobot set. Lolol

    Tene-bro

    Constructicons don't really show up in MtMtE (it's part of a larger continuity). But I can confirm that Grimlock shows up

    And it's a "Marvel Comics"-esque version, meaning he's actually really freaking scary sometimes

    (and yes, Marvel Comics did Transformers. Technically they pre-dated the cartoon, and kept going till like the 90s)

    The_Lex

    I only liked it because they came together to form something bigger. I was a kid. Haha.

    Tene-bro

    Combiner teams FTW, bro

    The_Lex

    We couldn't afford much while growing up, but the best birthday was when I got an Optimus Prime from my grandma. She saw me watching the show and wrote down the character names.

    Tene-bro

    I actually grew up more or less during a Transformers "downtime" period (early 2000s, before the live-action movies but after the heyday of G1). It's interesting to see how the toys are actually evolving from their original concepts, even when based off the same "incarnation" of a character

    Of course, I'm a nerd of unholy proportions about Transformers, but still

    The_Lex

    That's pretty cool, though

    I guess we're all nerds here

    Tene-bro

    I still think a lot of the Marvel Comics of Transformers in particular are really under-looked

    Sad, considering how long it ran, and how it influenced pretty much everything since (equal to, or more so than, the cartoon)

    The_Lex

    What came first? Transformers or Voltron?

    Honest question.

    Tene-bro

    Transformers as a toyline and comic series came first

    Need to check on the cartoon

    Voltron cartoon pre-dated TF cartoon by a week, airing-wise

    The_Lex

    Yeah, it's kinda the same concept. But I remember watching Power Rangers thinking that they ripped off Voltron and TF.

    TF were groundbreaking, to be sure.

    Tene-bro

    Honestly, as a merchandise-based deal, TF was grounbreaking

    Mostly b/c of the marketing, cartoon, and how even the toys had fiction behind them (the package bios I mentioned before)

    Also why G.I Joe was so successful and remembered

    Dragonborn2021

    Jumping ship again (not in the normal fanfiction way...probably) I've weirdly found myself to be more fond of "Real World AU's" than I used to be.  I used to be really put-off by the idea of stories that completely remove the world from around the characters but recently there's been something about them that's just worked for me.

    I think it's mostly the idea of being able to focus on characters in a more neutral setting. You can focus on emotional and social aspects of a story and remove the world-saving or monster slaying aspects...guess it also helps that you can't have the "What if __ was edgy and superpowerful" trope there, so...you know that's great as well.

    Ilani

    What, you mean like putting game/story characters in our world?

    Dragonborn2021

    Eh, more or less. It's more like creating a shell of our world, then shoving in the fantasy setting to fill the gaps. There was that movie...Romeo + Juliet which essentially did the same thing. Can't stand that movie but it works as an explanation for what I mean.

    Ilani

    I sort of like things like that too. I like speculative fiction. Where the world’s  like our world. But there’s magic. Or fairies. Or dragons. And it’s not important why or how there’s magic, just that there is. It’s so much fun, just stories of everyday life, just in our world. Our magical world.

    Dragonborn2021

    Sorry Ilani, meant to respond earlier. Yeah I think that's fun, or really any sort of 'Regular Person Ends up in a Fantasy World' sort of story. It's interesting to see how my reading habits have changed over the years because I used to be pretty specific and limited myself a lot. Never read crossovers, never read anything that altered the world too much (changing the characters is fine, but if the world is different it was a no-go). Never even really read any one-shots or other shorter stories, liked the big 100k+ ones and only rarely read something a bit smaller.

    ___

    Note: I'm probably closing this one up tomorrow at some point, just think it's slowed down enough to close it down and consider starting a third Weekly Discussion.