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Let's talk about GOTS8 Episode Four

    • 739 posts
    May 5, 2019 6:05 PM EDT

    In your reply to this thread, please paste this at the top of your comment before writing your actual reply:

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    There are leaked spoilers on the internet, apparently a German company messed it up again. Please, as per our rules, leaks are strictly forbidden to even be mentioned.

    Obviously, I can't enforce those rules, but please respect them. That said, I'm only coming back after watching the episode.

    It's also possible there have been leaks regarding the last episode of the series, I don't know if this is true or not. If it is, again, please avoid them and especially avoid posting them on these discussions and on the site in general.

    What did you think of it?

    Did you enjoy it?

    What was the most interesting thing to you?

    What are your predictions to episode 5?

    Talk about anything you want. But remember, NO LEAKS.

    • 1437 posts
    May 6, 2019 12:33 AM EDT

    I liked it, also found this 

    • 194 posts
    May 6, 2019 1:33 AM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

     

    Please oh please let this one be less disappointing...

    Aw, yay. Ghost made it out alive. Beat all hell up, though. Jon actually looks great, relatively speaking. I don’t know how Sam is still up and walking around. I would be wracked with guilt after literally shrieking on the battlefield and distracting Edd long enough to get him killed. Harsh, yes. But still, I don’t know how guilt isn’t eating him alive. 

     

    I‘m SHOCKED there are so many people still alive. There were literally MOUNTAINS of dead people in that battle. MOUNTAINS. I do like that all the less-main characters are getting a hero’s sendoff. In so many movies and shows they only concern themselves with the main characters. 

     

    Danerys - wow, that was a turnaround of events. She MADE Gendry a lawful Baratheon? She just fucking made him heir. The last living legitimate heir, if you don’t accept that the Baratheons were conquered Just like the Targaryens. I know what she was doing, and I get it, but damn. Other people who favor the Baratheons could take this and RUN WITH IT. 

     

    “We may have defeated them, but we still have us to contend with.” Possibly the quote of the season. 

     

    Danerys looks so very alone there, watching everyone else having fun. And listening to everyone ignore that she’s been climbing on dragons all this damn time. What is going on in her head? Nothing good, I’ll bet. So much insecurity. Which, I’m betting, with her, will lead straight to madness. 

     

    oooohhhh, damn, Tormund. That’s how it had to be, I know. But I kept hoping up until the bitter end. 

     

    @mr. Edd, I think you’re right about Arya, that she’s not super well adjusted, and no one super well adjusted could do the things she does. I’m a little surprised Gendry doesn’t see that. OR, maybe, he doesn’t expect her to be the typical “lady.” He has to know she’s not one. nor should she be. 

     

    Brienne and Jaime - Game of Shirts. I’ve never seen anything so awkward in my life. I have a friend who doesn’t like their getting together, said it weakened Brienne. I don’t agree. It’s not weak to love someone and have that someone return the love. And it’s not weak to be vulnerable every once in a while. 

     

    Oh god, what’s Danerys going to do. WHAT IS MINE. Nothing is hers. Literally nothing. She has no claim, unless she defeats Cersei by conquest. Demanding respect for her bloodline is ridiculous, and a losing battle. Her bloodline was CONQUERED. Cast out. Defeated. 

     

    Kill Cersei without destroying King’s Landing? Oh, if only we had someone who has trained for YEARS in subterfuge. In killing secretly. In being an assassin. if only there was such a person right here in Winterfell. Literally standing right here in this room. i guess that’s just something we have to live without. 

     

    Danerys is getting a little crazy here. People need time to recuperate. How is this not a reasonable request??? And how the hell long does it take to get to the places they’re talking about here? Are we going to have creative traveling times like last season? 

     

    Oh. Jon didn’t tell. Bran did. Interesting. 

     

    Oh fuck. Bronn. He’s right. They’re basically all damn cutthroats. I was disappointed in that exchange. I guess I keep expecting Bronn to show a little depth. I guess I need to stop expecting that. 

     

    I like the exchange between Tyrion and Sansa. Lots of subtext there. 

     

    Nooooooo Tormund is leaving. Noooooo Ghost too? Nooooo. Seriously? This is such BS. 

     

    oh my god. Varys knows. THERE IS NO CLAIM TO THE THRONE. DAMMIT, PEOPLE. 

     

    Nope, Shenanigans. They should have been able to see the redneck sex pirate and his fleet From around that rock. And honest to god, i’m Sick of all the main characters being shrouded in plot armor and the dragons are sitting ducks. Damn, you know, those harpoon things are pretty dam effective weapons. If only they’d seen them used somewhere in the past and figured out how to copy them. Produce them for THEIR OWN use. Well, i guess that’s just wishful thinking, right? Like the assassin who could kill Cersei. Just a pipe dream. 

     

    God euron is disgusting. Cersei is, too, but euron is just so damn disgusting. 

     

    Listen to Varys. LISTEN. oh my god, she’s crazy. CRAZY. No matter the cost? What if the cost is you becoming a tyrant? Which is what you’ll be if you do this. Damn. save us all by murdering us all. 

     

    How is this all happening already? It seems like the next day. How is it that they’ve traveled and word has already gotten back? Things happen so quick in Westeros. 

     

    This whole episode seems to be about people who don’t know who they are, exactly. Danerys has always been about being heir to the throne, and now she might not be, and that’s frightening. Jon doesn’t know what his place in all this is at all. Jaime, I don’t think Jaime was White-Fanging Brienne just then. I really don’t think he knows what sort of man he is now. Tyrion, I’m not sure if he knows yet either.  Arya thinks she knows, thinks she’s still Arya Stark, but is she? Sansa wants to be Lord of Winterfell, but doesn’t know if she can do it, and doesn’t know if everyone will accept her. After what happened last week in the crypts (even though that wasn’t given as the reason) I don’t blame her. 

     

    Tyrion: Cersei, you’re not a monster. 

    Cersei: hold my beer. 

     

    you know, I get that there’s justice and revenge. But I’m ok with whatever happening to cersei in the next few episodes being both. 

     

     

     

    • 194 posts
    May 6, 2019 1:35 AM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

     

    What I’m NOT ok with is them using the death of one woman to justify the massacre of Kings Landing. One innocent woman’s blood justifies the shedding of thousands? I get it, I get what theyr’e all feeling, but damn. 

    • 194 posts
    May 6, 2019 2:25 AM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

     

    Ugh, the more I think about this the unhappier I am. I still don’t like the writers using Euron as some sort of plot piece. I HATE how they’re able to build ships and enormous weapons and travel in no time at all. I get that some things need to suspend disbelief, but it’s too much. and they’re going very close to KL. Scouts, maybe? They know dragons aren’t infallible. They KNOW they had these weapons before. Wouldn’t they be a bit cautious? I think they would, and the writers are doing the characters a disservice again. Using shoddy writing to create drama. the scene at dragonstone shouldn’t have happened. 

     

    And i’m really very uncomfortable with a point I brought up earlier: these people don’t seem affected (after the funeral at least) in the least by what just happened. They lost friends. They lost family. They got their asses handed to them good, and if it weren’t for Arya, they’d probably all be dead. They let people down in horrible ways, and no one seems in the least affected by that. I dont’ get it. sansa goes on and on last week about how she can’t go int he crypts. Has to stay on the battlements “for her people.” But once she’s in the crypts, she can’t muster up one little stab with that dagger. Tyrion either. Varys either. They literallly stand in an alcove where people they know - CHILDREN, FUCKING CHILDREN - are screaming right next to them. But they’re fine after the funeral. Sansa even talks tough to the Hound, about how she’s not a little bird anymore. At first i thought it might be a tough front, but I don’t think so anymore. I think she’s really talking about how much tougher she’s gotten. How much stronger she is. But is she? If she can listen to the screams of children 5 feet away from her while hiding with a dragonglass dagger and not FEEL something, she’s damned well changed, but not in the way she thinks. I’m not saying what she did was unexpected. OR unforgivable. I mean, i have no idea how I’d react in danger like that. But i do know this - i’d Be a fucking mess the next day, and not up to drinking and bragging with anyone. 

     

    And NO, FUCKING NO, being abused by Joffrey and Littlefinger and Ramsey is not something you wish for. Or something you even accept as something that changes your character and forges you from some sort of weakling into strength. i get that she might want to paint what happened to her in the best light because dammit, she won. But i can’t believe she’s able to say something like that without vomiting a little in her mouth. Strong does not equal...whatever this is. 

     

    Also, how did Bronn get into Winterfell in the first place? Waltz in with that crossbow? Do they have any security at all? I mean, they’re at war, and everything. 

    • 1437 posts
    May 6, 2019 2:50 AM EDT

    ilanisilver said:

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

     

    Ugh, the more I think about this the unhappier I am. I still don’t like the writers using Euron as some sort of plot piece. I HATE how they’re able to build ships and enormous weapons and travel in no time at all. I get that some things need to suspend disbelief, but it’s too much. and they’re going very close to KL. Scouts, maybe? They know dragons aren’t infallible. They KNOW they had these weapons before. Wouldn’t they be a bit cautious? I think they would, and the writers are doing the characters a disservice again. Using shoddy writing to create drama. the scene at dragonstone shouldn’t have happened. 

     

    And i’m really very uncomfortable with a point I brought up earlier: these people don’t seem affected (after the funeral at least) in the least by what just happened. They lost friends. They lost family. They got their asses handed to them good, and if it weren’t for Arya, they’d probably all be dead. They let people down in horrible ways, and no one seems in the least affected by that. I dont’ get it. sansa goes on and on last week about how she can’t go int he crypts. Has to stay on the battlements “for her people.” But once she’s in the crypts, she can’t muster up one little stab with that dagger. Tyrion either. Varys either. They literallly stand in an alcove where people they know - CHILDREN, FUCKING CHILDREN - are screaming right next to them. But they’re fine after the funeral. Sansa even talks tough to the Hound, about how she’s not a little bird anymore. At first i thought it might be a tough front, but I don’t think so anymore. I think she’s really talking about how much tougher she’s gotten. How much stronger she is. But is she? If she can listen to the screams of children 5 feet away from her while hiding with a dragonglass dagger and not FEEL something, she’s damned well changed, but not in the way she thinks. I’m not saying what she did was unexpected. OR unforgivable. I mean, i have no idea how I’d react in danger like that. But i do know this - i’d Be a fucking mess the next day, and not up to drinking and bragging with anyone. 

     

    And NO, FUCKING NO, being abused by Joffrey and Littlefinger and Ramsey is not something you wish for. Or something you even accept as something that changes your character and forges you from some sort of weakling into strength. i get that she might want to paint what happened to her in the best light because dammit, she won. But i can’t believe she’s able to say something like that without vomiting a little in her mouth. Strong does not equal...whatever this is. 

     

    Also, how did Bronn get into Winterfell in the first place? Waltz in with that crossbow? Do they have any security at all? I mean, they’re at war, and everything. 

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

     

     

    One thing I liked about Euron was how more mystical he was in the books, with this giant mysterious horn and shit.

    But while people may scoff at the idea of Arya sneaking in and killing Cersei, I mean, Arya is a fucking assassin, and let's see, who are often sent to kill nobles and monarchs? Assassins. Hell, Joffrey was assassinated, and that wasn't even by someone trained in it. And a big battle against Cersei would make no sense, at least combat with her wouldn't, cause, in both the books and show, she has never shown ANY talent in combat, preferring less direct methods of dealing with her foes


    This post was edited by Chris at May 6, 2019 2:53 AM EDT
    • 1437 posts
    May 6, 2019 11:07 AM EDT
    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    Though some may think Jaime may kill Cersei. Honestly, I feel sorry for Jaime. Despite trying to atone for his sins, and with Brienne we see the good man who, despite being a Kingslayer, did so for good intentions. Yet sadly Cersei has ensared his heart.
    • 194 posts
    May 6, 2019 11:25 AM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    @Chris

    re Arya: EXACTLY. 

     

    Re Jaime: i hope, despite what the writers imply, that Jaime didn’t leave to “go back” to cersei. That he left so he can further atone for the damage he did while with cersei. That he knows he is part of what made cersei what she is, and he can’t stand by and let her face judgment alone. He can’t escape and redeem himself so easily, and be happy without dealing with the damage he did with cersei first. I hope. 

    • 194 posts
    May 6, 2019 12:10 PM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

     

    Lol! My photo is crap, I know. But I couldn’t make screenshot work for some reason. 

    • 194 posts
    May 8, 2019 1:00 AM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

     

    This fits more under the “who will win” discussion with the poll, but I wanted to put it here because it’s a bit spoilery. more reasons why I’m thinking Bran. And you guys, I only started thinking about it because Vegas oddsmakers have him as their favorite, so I thought about why. My reasons I said in the poll stand, but there’s also this: Bran knows a lot. He can warg into whatever - we know ravens. Anything else? People? Is it possible? I don’t know. But think about what he knows versus what he’s TELLING. Why don’t people ask him more questions? It could be because he’s creepy as hell, but it could also be that he’s creepy as hell because he wants to avoid answering questions. I thought he and Tyrion had had a good chat in episode 2, but I was wrong about that. I don’t know what the hell they talked about, but it wasn’t answers, given Tyrion’s question to him last episode. But anyway - Bran knows things. He can see things, I’m not sure how far he can see, but he can see. Maybe he is telling everyone exactly what he needs them to know to get him and those he wants to “win” on their correct places on the board. Ending with him as ultimate winner. Westeros belongs to the forest or whatever again. 

     

    I mean, maybe it’s terrible writing, maybe the writers are just leaving stuff out because it would tie up plot arcs if they had him answer certain questions. Or maybe they don’t want that knowledge out and are somehow tying his hands when they shouldn’t actually be tied. But maybe Bran knows things. Enough things to get him exactly where he wants to be. 

    • 739 posts
    May 8, 2019 6:04 PM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    @ilanisilver

    Aw, yay. Ghost made it out alive. Beat all hell up, though. Jon actually looks great, relatively speaking. I don’t know how Sam is still up and walking around. I would be wracked with guilt after literally shrieking on the battlefield and distracting Edd long enough to get him killed. Harsh, yes. But still, I don’t know how guilt isn’t eating him alive.

    Exactly! Sam got Edd killed. Poor Edd. My nickname on this site is named after him, it was originally "Dolorous Edd" way back then. I had hoped he would live, it would be fitting: he's extremely negative (and funny because of that negativity) and pessimistic, so for him to be one of the last one standing would be both funny and sad.

    I‘m SHOCKED there are so many people still alive. There were literally MOUNTAINS of dead people in that battle. MOUNTAINS. I do like that all the less-main characters are getting a hero’s sendoff. In so many movies and shows they only concern themselves with the main characters. 

    Agreed. It was basically to serve the plot: Daenerys/allies lost just enough men for them to be evenly matched with Cersei. No more, no less! They're even.

    Danerys - wow, that was a turnaround of events. She MADE Gendry a lawful Baratheon? She just fucking made him heir. The last living legitimate heir, if you don’t accept that the Baratheons were conquered Just like the Targaryens. I know what she was doing, and I get it, but damn. Other people who favor the Baratheons could take this and RUN WITH IT.

    Lol, I hadn't though about that, but you're right. From my perspective he is now the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne, not Dany, not Jon. Gendry. Of course Daenerys doesn't accept that she was ousted from the Thrones because the Targaryens and particularly her daddy were crazy tyrants. Of course, this seems to be the view of the show writers too: it angers me so, so much that every time they bring up Robert Baratheon, they paint him and his rebellion like something that started because of a fool in love (Robert) who wasn't loved back.

    Robert's Rebellion didn't start because Robert wasn't loved back, not by far. Let's remember: Aerys, the Mad King, was already crazy before anything happened. He was disgusting, letting his nails and hair grow long because he was afraid of sharp objects (except for the Iron Throne, but ironically he was always getting himself cut by it). Burning his enemies (or perceived enemies) alive made him sexually aroused, and he was sexually abusive towards his sister/wife Rhaella. It is likely that Daenerys was born out of a rape that happened after Aerys had murdered Brandon and Rickard Stark.

    But not withstanding, this is how things went historically: Lyanna Stark was promised to Robert Baratheon. Suddenly, the son of the Mad King disappears with Lyanna, no one knew of their "love" (Rhaegar was also really deep into theories and prophecies, so I can't say for certain that he loved Lyanna like she loved him or if he was just using her because he "saw" it somewhere). For all everyone knew, Rhaegar Targaryen had just abducted Lyanna Stark. Following that, Rickard Stark (Lyanna's father) and Brandon Stark (Lyanna's brother and heir of Winterfell) came down to King's Landing to ask the Mad King for Lyanna and Rhaegar. Aerys then put them both in jail, and when Rickard demanded trial by combat, Aerys accepted... Except Aerys, being a Targaryen (Fire and Blood) believed that Fire was his champion: he suspended Rickard Stark over a fire, with his armour on, burning him alive, while his son, Brandon, was tied to a wall with a rope on his neck, and while he tried to save his father, he strangled himself.

    Following that event, and as if it wasn't enough, the Mad King sent a letter to the Eyrie, asking Jon Arryn to send him the heads of both Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon. Jon Arryn was fostering both Ned and Robert, and was basically a "second father" to them both, so he refused, called his banners, and only then did the Vale (Arryn), the North (Stark), the Stormlands (Baratheon) and the Riverlands (Tully - Catelyn Tully was promised to Brandon Stark, and after he died, she was promised to Ned Stark) openly rebelled against the Targaryen dynasty. This is the reason Robert's Rebellion began, it wasn't based on a lie like the show writers like to say.

    If anything, this goes to say just how irresponsible Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark were, they had to know the shitstorm that would ensue after their shenanigans (especially if said shenanigans were based around a prophecy, like it looks like)

    There are also some "hints" that point towards some sort of conspiracy between the Lords of the Vale, the North, the Stormlands and the Riverlands, with all of the marriages between the houses (Baratheon with Stark, Stark with Tully, Tully with Arryn) and each house sending people to foster under another friendly Lord. It almost looks like they were trying to form a coalition, or an alliance within the Seven Kingdoms... At one point, Tully even offered Lysa Tully to marry Jaime Lannister, and Tywin wanted it, but Jaime wanted to be a Kingsguard. Tywin then offered Tyrion, but Lord Tully refused.

    Danerys looks so very alone there, watching everyone else having fun. And listening to everyone ignore that she’s been climbing on dragons all this damn time. What is going on in her head? Nothing good, I’ll bet. So much insecurity. Which, I’m betting, with her, will lead straight to madness.

    Yeah, the actress has been doing a really great job this season. In fact, the acting this season has been the best in quite some time - we used to have stand-outs like Lena Headey (Cersei), Nikolaj Coster-Waldau (Jaime), Peter Dinklage (Tyrion), Mark Addy (Robert), Michelel Fairley (Catelyn), Charles Dance (Tywin), Sean Bean (Ned), the Littlefinger guy... but they were "isolated". This season, everyone seems well above average. Which is a shame, because the writing isn't as good as it was...

    Brienne and Jaime - Game of Shirts. I’ve never seen anything so awkward in my life. I have a friend who doesn’t like their getting together, said it weakened Brienne. I don’t agree. It’s not weak to love someone and have that someone return the love. And it’s not weak to be vulnerable every once in a while.

    I agree, I like that they got together. I was happy for both Brienne and Jaime, who finally seemed to have left Cersei, emotionally.

    Kill Cersei without destroying King’s Landing? Oh, if only we had someone who has trained for YEARS in subterfuge. In killing secretly. In being an assassin. if only there was such a person right here in Winterfell. Literally standing right here in this room. i guess that’s just something we have to live without.

    Yeah, this is the problem with creating a deus ex machina, especially an assassin/fighter deus ex machina. Why not use her for everything?

    Danerys is getting a little crazy here. People need time to recuperate. How is this not a reasonable request??? And how the hell long does it take to get to the places they’re talking about here? Are we going to have creative traveling times like last season?

    Only two more episodes to got, plenty of fast travels to go. Gone are the days where we would get so much exposition, dialogue and character growth on their journeys. I still expect them on the books, which is probably why it's taking so damn long for GRRM to release them...

    Oh fuck. Bronn. He’s right. They’re basically all damn cutthroats. I was disappointed in that exchange. I guess I keep expecting Bronn to show a little depth. I guess I need to stop expecting that.

    I thought it was fitting for Bronn. The show did sugarcoat Bronn a little, in the books it's much more straighforward that he is just a greedy mercenary like any other.

    Nooooooo Tormund is leaving. Noooooo Ghost too? Nooooo. Seriously? This is such BS.

    Yeah, I'm afraid we won't see them again this season... I hope we do, but damn... No more Ghost? Jon didn't even pet him!

    Nope, Shenanigans. They should have been able to see the redneck sex pirate and his fleet From around that rock. And honest to god, i’m Sick of all the main characters being shrouded in plot armor and the dragons are sitting ducks. Damn, you know, those harpoon things are pretty dam effective weapons. If only they’d seen them used somewhere in the past and figured out how to copy them. Produce them for THEIR OWN use. Well, i guess that’s just wishful thinking, right? Like the assassin who could kill Cersei. Just a pipe dream.

    Worst of all was that it seemed like there was no angle for the ships to hit Dany. And she should have seen them.

     


    This post was edited by Mr. Edd at May 8, 2019 6:10 PM EDT
    • 739 posts
    May 8, 2019 6:19 PM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    And damn, I forgot to mention that Rhaegar was married before disappearing with Lyanna. Not only that, but he lef this wife (Elia Martell) and his two children alone in King's Landing, with his crazy father. His crazy father stopped them from leaving, and later, when the Lannisters "turned" on Aerys (they didn't fight in the war, they just waited to see who was going to win and turned on the last minute), Gregor Clegane killed Elia's children and raped her... and then killed her.

    And people paint Rhaegar as some promised prince or something... The dude was a jerk, lol.


    This post was edited by Mr. Edd at May 8, 2019 6:20 PM EDT
    • 194 posts
    May 9, 2019 12:08 AM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

     

    Yes, “the heart wants what the heart wants” just isn’t acceptable when you’re abandoning your spouse and kids. Especially when you’re abandoning them to be raped and murdered by monsters. No sympathy, none at all. Jon is really the only one who gets any from me in that scenario. 

     

    And this is part of why I’m thinking maybe Bran...he knows things, I’ve already mentioned. He knows all this stuff about rhaegar, and he knows about Danerys’s father as well. And he’s no stranger to freaking people out by speaking uncomfortable truths either. So why doesn’t he speak up? He could. He’s been in the room when Dany’s gone on her tirades before. He could have told jon about rhaegar and all the implications of his birth. He chose not to. Maybe he’s orchestrating. Or maybe the writers are just shit and using him when he’s convenient, but not when he’s realistic. I don’t know, man. 

    • 739 posts
    May 9, 2019 5:08 PM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    Part two of my replies to the thread.

    @ilanisilver

    Ugh, the more I think about this the unhappier I am. I still don’t like the writers using Euron as some sort of plot piece. I HATE how they’re able to build ships and enormous weapons and travel in no time at all. I get that some things need to suspend disbelief, but it’s too much. and they’re going very close to KL. Scouts, maybe? They know dragons aren’t infallible. They KNOW they had these weapons before. Wouldn’t they be a bit cautious? I think they would, and the writers are doing the characters a disservice again. Using shoddy writing to create drama. the scene at dragonstone shouldn’t have happened.

    To add to this, Dragonstone - where Daenerys was ambushed - is not only, traditionally, the seat of the heir to the Iron Throne, but it's used as a "gate" or fortress, guarding the access to Blackwater Bay and, therefore, King's Landing. I can't believe they didn't send scouts or left anyone guarding such a valuable position. The only explanation is that Daenerys did leave someone and Euron took it back, but even then, Daenerys should have been warned through a raven-message. Map: http://quartermaester.info/

     

    @Chris

    One thing I liked about Euron was how more mystical he was in the books, with this giant mysterious horn and shit.

    But while people may scoff at the idea of Arya sneaking in and killing Cersei, I mean, Arya is a fucking assassin, and let's see, who are often sent to kill nobles and monarchs? Assassins. Hell, Joffrey was assassinated, and that wasn't even by someone trained in it. And a big battle against Cersei would make no sense, at least combat with her wouldn't, cause, in both the books and show, she has never shown ANY talent in combat, preferring less direct methods of dealing with her foes

    Agreed. Euron in the books is such an amazing character, you really do feel that he is actually worse than both Joffrey and Ramsay. I feel like some of his possible plot points in the books - stealing Viserion through that magical horn, bringing down the Wall - were given to the Night King.

    As for Cersei, while I love Lena Headey and the character - both in the books and in the show - it is clear that the show made her a lot smarter than she actually is. It's like the writers bought into her POV chapters in the books, where Cersei thinks she's oh so very smart, but then we see the results of all of her planning and conspiracies. And she has pretty much lost it, having burned down the Tower of the Hand, thinking that Tyrion is hiding in every corner, indirectly ordering the murder of thousands of dwarfs in search of Tyrion...

    • 194 posts
    May 9, 2019 7:39 PM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

     

    Re Cersei: yes, she thought it was a great idea to militarize a group of religious fanatics. My god, what could possibly go wrong, there? 

    • 1437 posts
    May 10, 2019 11:56 AM EDT
    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    https://youtu.be/nCH0Yowf3qg
    • 65 posts
    May 11, 2019 2:40 AM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

     

    I just feel like i'm really grumpy with how the show has gone especially the last two episodes. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they killed Dany next episode after the way they've treating her character. The Dany this season is nothing like the one from previous seasons. She was always smart and calculated and hella resourceful. This season she is a lot more impulsive and less calculated. But after the last two episodes the shit shes been through I honestly can't blame her... if she ends up burning kings landing to ashes, good riddance I say. Her so called advisors are turning on her left and right, and questioning her at every step. She sacrificed so much of her forces for the North and they still treat with disdain, She's lost two of her dragons (which she considers her children) and two of her closest friends in such a short amount of time. The man that she has fallen in love with has turned out to be her nephew, putting into question her claim to the throne. Restoring her families legacy to the throne has been one her main goals since the series started. Hell she's lived the last several years of her life literally thinking she is the last Targaryen and all of a sudden she finds out she isn't. The last thing she needs is for her remaining "friends" to be plotting against her. What she needs is for them to be rallying around her, supporting her and trusting her judgment. Can you imagine where any normal persons head would be after the shit that she's been through in such a short time. Seems like everyone is convenintly forgetting that Cersie blew up the great Sept of Baelor. Or all the other shit the Lannisters have done, like the Red wedding or masacaring kings landing at the end of Roberts Rebellion. What exactly has Dany done for her advisors to turn on her like they are. 

    And if Varys really cared about the people as he claims, why did he inform King  Aerys Targaryen about the turney at Harrenhall? If he hadn't Rhaegar may have been able to convince all the lords who had turned up to the turney that he was better suited as king because his father was going bonkers, I think things would of turned out a lot better for the realm if he had taken the throne. But what happened? Varys informed the Mad King that the turney was just a ruse and that the actual purpose was to have a council with the lords to convince them that Aerys was no longer fit to rule the 7 kingdoms. And for the first time in years Aerys Targaryen left the Red Keep to go to the turney. If Varys hadn't done that Rickard Stark and Brandon Stark probably wouldn't have gone to kings landing and gotten burned alive by the mad King. It's quite likely Rhaegar may not have "kidnapped" Lyanna Stark because he would have been sitting the Iron throne. Their deaths are the main thing that triggered the rebellion. and that could of all been avoided if Varys hadn't told a bat shit crazy king with rank ass naills that people were plotting against him. If Jamie hadn't killed the mad king, kings landing would of gotten blown to shit with Wild Fire  as well, which would of been because of the choices Varys had made. What Varys wants is a puppet he can easily manipulate to his own benefit and he will never get that with Dany. I hope she burns his ass next episode for treason. Melisandre has already foreshdowed his death, so we shall see.

    If you can't tell i'm definantly team Targaryen lol.

    • 65 posts
    May 12, 2019 1:48 AM EDT
    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    I found this entertaining lol
    https://youtu.be/_KoScPK00P0

    • 194 posts
    May 12, 2019 3:43 PM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

     

    I’m definitely not team Targaryen, but I don’t like what they’re doing with Danerys this season. I have no idea whether what has changed in her is realistic given the situation or not, but I’m definitely not a fan. And yeah, Varys doesn’t seem to be as smart as he thinks he is. No one seems to be, I don’t think. I’ve said who I think will come out on top, if there is such a thing here, when everything’s said and done. As to who I‘d like to “win” the game of thrones? Honestly, I”m not sure who would be the best ruler. I’ve always been Team Tyrion, and I‘m not sure that has changed. My problem is less with him as a ruler than with his ability to find advisers and counselors who wouldn’t stab him in the back. Since, there aren’t many trustworthy people, we’re finding out. 

     

    And yeah, that video said quite a bit I agree with. there’s just this big disconnect between what the characters would do and what the writers seem to be forcing them to do. 

    • 739 posts
    May 12, 2019 8:03 PM EDT

    Furrion 17 said:

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

     

    I just feel like i'm really grumpy with how the show has gone especially the last two episodes. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they killed Dany next episode after the way they've treating her character. The Dany this season is nothing like the one from previous seasons. She was always smart and calculated and hella resourceful. This season she is a lot more impulsive and less calculated. But after the last two episodes the shit shes been through I honestly can't blame her... if she ends up burning kings landing to ashes, good riddance I say. Her so called advisors are turning on her left and right, and questioning her at every step. She sacrificed so much of her forces for the North and they still treat with disdain, She's lost two of her dragons (which she considers her children) and two of her closest friends in such a short amount of time. The man that she has fallen in love with has turned out to be her nephew, putting into question her claim to the throne. Restoring her families legacy to the throne has been one her main goals since the series started. Hell she's lived the last several years of her life literally thinking she is the last Targaryen and all of a sudden she finds out she isn't. The last thing she needs is for her remaining "friends" to be plotting against her. What she needs is for them to be rallying around her, supporting her and trusting her judgment. Can you imagine where any normal persons head would be after the shit that she's been through in such a short time. Seems like everyone is convenintly forgetting that Cersie blew up the great Sept of Baelor. Or all the other shit the Lannisters have done, like the Red wedding or masacaring kings landing at the end of Roberts Rebellion. What exactly has Dany done for her advisors to turn on her like they are. 

    And if Varys really cared about the people as he claims, why did he inform King  Aerys Targaryen about the turney at Harrenhall? If he hadn't Rhaegar may have been able to convince all the lords who had turned up to the turney that he was better suited as king because his father was going bonkers, I think things would of turned out a lot better for the realm if he had taken the throne. But what happened? Varys informed the Mad King that the turney was just a ruse and that the actual purpose was to have a council with the lords to convince them that Aerys was no longer fit to rule the 7 kingdoms. And for the first time in years Aerys Targaryen left the Red Keep to go to the turney. If Varys hadn't done that Rickard Stark and Brandon Stark probably wouldn't have gone to kings landing and gotten burned alive by the mad King. It's quite likely Rhaegar may not have "kidnapped" Lyanna Stark because he would have been sitting the Iron throne. Their deaths are the main thing that triggered the rebellion. and that could of all been avoided if Varys hadn't told a bat shit crazy king with rank ass naills that people were plotting against him. If Jamie hadn't killed the mad king, kings landing would of gotten blown to shit with Wild Fire  as well, which would of been because of the choices Varys had made. What Varys wants is a puppet he can easily manipulate to his own benefit and he will never get that with Dany. I hope she burns his ass next episode for treason. Melisandre has already foreshdowed his death, so we shall see.

    If you can't tell i'm definantly team Targaryen lol.

    I disagree. Granted, the writing sucks, but Dany has always been portrayed as a bad and ruthless ruler, even if her intentions are/were good (she was certainly never "smart" or "calculated" in the books, all of her "ruling" was left to her advisers, mainly Barristan in A Dance with Dragons). Dany going "bad" is the one thing I can see being straight out of GRRM's books, because it is crystal clear in the books: she ruined Slaver's Bay, Quentyn Martell describes Astapor and Yunkai as "hell on earth" following Dany's liberation of those cities. Not only that, but she's way too trigger happy.

    As for people forgetting about other peoples' misdeeds, that's not the point. Dany's entire persona rests on the claim that she is allegedly different. If we're bringing up "but what about those other guys?! They all did the same or equally bad things!", then she's no different at all, and just another power-hungry person coming after the Iron Throne. By blowing up King's Landing, she is becoming what she claims to fight against, or worse, considering the massive, innocent population of King's Landing.

    Varys doesn't make sense in the show because they cut fake Aegon and Jon Connington from it. In the books, everything he does is with fake Aegon in mind, fake Aegon is almost certainly a Blackfyre (and maybe Varys is also a Blackfyre): the Blackfyre are mortal enemies with the Targaryens and fought against them in more than one war (First, Second, Third, Fourth and Fifth Blackfyre Rebellion. The last one is also known as the War of the Ninepenny Kings).

    The man that she has fallen in love with has turned out to be her nephew, putting into question her claim to the throne. Restoring her families legacy to the throne has been one her main goals since the series started.

    It's not about restoring her "family legacy" to the throne. It's about she, Daenerys, getting the Iron Throne. If all she cared about was her family's legacy, she would have married Jon or just supported him.

     

    She sacrificed so much of her forces for the North and they still treat with disdain

    Something people tend to forget is that the fight in the North wasn't just a fight in the North. It was a fight for humanity, and Dany saying "Well, I came here to save your sorry ass, you should all bow to me!" shows just how disconnected she is with reality. She wasn't saving their sorry ass, she was saving her sorry ass too. She sacrificed some of her forces, but so did the North, first in their fight to get rid of the Targaryen lunatics (Robert's Rebellion), second in their fight for independence (War of the Five Kings) and thirdly in their fight to reclaim the North from the Boltons.

    Now, back to why the writing sucks: the writers in the show decided to only show Dany in a "bad light" in Season 7 and 8. Before that, they played her as she was some sort of blonde Jesus sent to rescue humanity from itself, and also played on her "girl power". The fact is, that ever since she started her conquest of Slaver's Bay in the books, the morality and rationality of her choices have been brought into question by Martin. The same didn't happen in the show, even if the writers knew what Martin's plan was all along... so when they started "course correcting" her characters in the last two seasons, it feels like a cheap "subversion of expectations", instead of the slow build-up Martin has been writing about in the books.

    I also find it ridiculous how there were basically no consequences for Cersei after she destroyed the Sept of Baelor, but I think this also goes back to the show cutting fake Aegon and Jon Connington: I don't expect Cersei to become Queen at all. Fake Aegon will be the one Daenerys will fight against once she gets to Westeros.

    • 1437 posts
    May 12, 2019 10:50 PM EDT
    You know, the way they've been writing Dany makes me think, as a pure blood Targ, she's, in part, slipping into the old madness. Hell, Baelor and his brother were some if the only ones I think who escaped it