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RPGs: What Have You Learned?

    • 318 posts
    October 9, 2018 10:15 PM EDT
    Yeah, it was posted by MK so take it with a grain of salt. But that's what some people view as the Thalmor's master plan.
    • 194 posts
    October 10, 2018 3:00 AM EDT
    Duvain, I’m on mobile and can’t quote well, but that bit about man and mer being neither good nor bad sounds like Voldemort, telling Harry there’s no good or evil, only power and those too weak to seek it. Or here, those who will attain it at all costs. To become those rulers you believe only have power in mind and not the good of the people. I agree with you on that score.

    But it is difficult to know. Now that I’m raising my child, teaching her good from evil seems so important, and some days I think I’ve got it figured out. And then some days nothing makes sense.
    • 393 posts
    October 10, 2018 4:09 AM EDT

    I have read all what there is on reddit too, everything that has even a little to do with that topic. And I personally don't believe that Kirkbride's is the god and his every word is truth. If anything, I don't believe that unmaking the world is so easy, only takes destroying the Towers, otherwise someone would have done it long ago. And I don't believe that the Altmer are so stupid as to not realize that.

    I understand what you guys are saying. It's really nice to stay with clean hands, leave everyone alone and be left alone in turn. But what if you won't be left alone?

    I don't know about you, but I would feel slightly uncomfortable if my neighbor was worshipping the greatest opressor and mass-murderer in history as a god, saying how cool it would be to kill more of my kind and singing odes to all of the other fellows who did so in the past. Because, you know, today he is singing songs, what if tomorrow he takes a gun and comes over?

    The history repeats itself, in one way or another. The history that has already repeated itself at least three times is almost certainly going to repeat the fourth time. Today all those Nords and Imperials just pray, and tomorrow there is some new Reman or Hjalti or whoever, and they will happily snatch their swords, without a shade of hesitation, and march to conquer the world. Like they have done multiple times in the past.

    To the men, this past may be a long forgotten history (or not so forgotten, if they still sing about it), to the elves it happened just a few generations back.

    So if I have to choose between being an opressor today or my children being oppressed and slaughtered tomorrow, I choose the first. I'll hate every moment of it, but I'll always choose the future of my kin over keeping my hands clean.

    ilanisilver said:that bit about man and mer being neither good nor bad sounds like Voldemort, telling Harry there’s no good or evil, only power and those too weak to seek it. Or here, those who will attain it at all costs. To become those rulers you believe only have power in mind and not the good of the people.

    If someone wants to attain power at all costs, usually it doesn't speak as much of their evilness as it does of their desperation or/and ignorance. In most cases, it's someone who doesn't know what he is doing, doesn't see the possible consequences, or is too far gone to care. If he does, that's another story, but then we should ask what exactly is the cost.

    And if you have no issue with Kirkbride, what do you think of his double standards? In his view, some trigger-happy human who kills elves by thousands is a cool guy, but elves are evil for just existing and not worshipping his beloved Lorkhan and Talos.

     


    This post was edited by Justiciar Thorien at October 10, 2018 4:10 AM EDT
    • 165 posts
    October 10, 2018 5:08 AM EDT

    Yeah Ilani this is an issue you find often in social anthropology.

    Generally what one considers good or evil varies based on many different factors. On the scale of a person some of the bigger factors are his upbringing and environment including everything family (very important), friends, society, religion, experiences he went through (good or bad/violent), race, geographical location, persons that affected his way of thinking, teachers etc.

    In the case of what a whole society thinks good or evil depends on many factors like tradition, religion, geographical location, events that affected them in large scale like wars or nomadic life / leaving their lands - relocate, wealth, climate (affecting food mostly), and most importantly what they accept as their laws.

     

    Also what you are teaching your child comes mostly from those things and your teaching will affect your child greatly for the rest of his/her life or at least for a good part of it until he/she starts to acquire knowledge and develop his/her own critical thinking which is higly important for everyone to have and develop.

    To give an example, what we are taught in our civilized societies is that abuse, neglect or killing (I won't even go into people) animals is bad and it has also been made punishable by laws. Well now go a few decades back and tell a granpa that killing a dog or cat would get him into some serious trouble with the law he would most likely laugh at you. There were even laws passed back at 1870+ that regulated and made legal the experimentation on animals in places like Europe, America etc.

    Another example is if we were to live in a martial type of society like China or Japan had a few centuries back depending on our social position we could very well be teaching our children the sword or other martial arts in order for them to defend their honor in case they were challenged which in many cases the challenge meant a fight to the death and it was not punishable in most cases.

    So what a society will see as good or evil is always affected by many things but the one thing that dictates mostly what will be considered good or evil within a society are the laws which partakes what I said above and some other things but the law in general is a huge matter that we could discuss for hours :P. Now if you think about it were all the laws decided by every civilian of a country or were they decided by the few persons that the civilians elected and they were presented then to the civilians and even if some of the laws were not liked by many as long as the general mass of them was OK they would just roll with it after some time given that it wasn't something that was going way overboard. Those elected to rule or let's say delegate and manage a country's matters have a few perks, skills and special conditions that can use to affect the whole society's way of thinking and maybe way of life that might not apply to the highly intellectuals or those who have a critical thinking but they can do so with the masses and the "voice of many". From what we 've seen in history when one comes into contact with this power of the chosen or elected one it's not easy to resist his own personality and desires for the sake of the many, I 'm not saying that this is always the case but it was like that in most cases.

    And all of that is for our civilized societies if you go to a society with lords, kings, monarchy etc there pretty much everything goes as long as the one on top can control the many and not have any mishaps.

    That is why I 'm saying that my faith on people who have power and authority on such a scale is very, very low.

    We digress from the discussion openning but I hope Rogue can put up with us. :P

     

    • 318 posts
    October 10, 2018 5:28 AM EDT
    Okay, now let's get back to talking about RPGs, because that is what this thread is originally about, right?

    Now, I've always been one to start my character as a balanced-type. A jack of all trades, I suppose. My first character in Skyrim was a basic sword-and-shield fighter with a bow for ranged combat. A main habit of mine was to always invest in stats that gave me extra health and wear heavy armor. I then decided to switch my playstyle after getting to know the game better, going from stealth to pure range, to support etc. Nowadays, I mainly like to play as a DPS or Support.
    • 165 posts
    October 10, 2018 5:43 AM EDT

    Thorien I think it is what I said in my post. It is all about fear and survival.

    The Men are afraid of the Elves because they live for so long and they are more advanced in society, arts, thinkers, magic etc. and want to conquer them in order to keep them in check and benefit from their civilization and achievements in return.

    The Elves are afraid of Men because they breed like rabbits and are much more numerical than them and they are afraid they might overtake them which is what happened.

    Also think the case of a great enemy coming to threaten all of Tamriel with demise then you most certainly could see Men and Elves fight together. It is all about survival, there is no good or bad, either of the two parties will just fight in order to survive no matter what they have to do it is the basic instict of a race to survive and continue its existense.

    No matter who was the first that started with the wars it would have happened anyway at some point and a reason these conflicts were not many is because of the location of Summerset Isle and Cyrodiil not being neghbors.

    So I don't think I will support anyone in this back and forth I just prefer my magic and my books. :P

    Now which side you would support it doesn't really matter if you look at it from a third person perspective like me (of course if you want to support a side it's perfectly fine we all have the things we like) because you know the pattern would be the same anyway one could say the Men started it and should be punished on the other hand someone else could say the snow elves and Ayleids did this and that. It's just a never ending back and forth that doesn't have much meaning since I know what both parties have in mind and why they act that way. It is all for survival, control and prosperity of the one over the other nothing more or less.

    I won't go into detail of why I said I don't like the Thalmor I 'll just say that it's not I don't like that they waged war but the way they did it was let's just say not as "classy" as it should have been for the Altmer. Well in the end it all depends on Bethesda's will so they should have their reasons for making history like that can't wait to see what will go down in ES 6. :D

    And again sorry to Rogue we digress from the discussions topic maybe we should move these comments to another topic in the forum :P

    • 165 posts
    October 10, 2018 5:47 AM EDT

    @A-Pocky-Hah - I will shamelessly say that I started as a sneak character a stealthy archer and dagger with conjuration and poisons that was my first character in the game. After that I kept the stealthy "lifestyle" and played a lot of assassins and thieves.

    Then after wanting something different I started playing something between a mage and a fighter with Alteration, Bound Weapons maybe some Alchemy and one or two more things that will make this type of playstyle interesting and I just can't play something else I don't even remember when was the last time I used Light or Heavy armor on a character. :P

    Edit: I also find myself after opting to this playstyle not playing thieves or assassins anymore and going for the chaotic good types all the time heck it's been years since I last played a pure thief or assassin character.


    This post was edited by Duvain at October 10, 2018 5:50 AM EDT
    • 68 posts
    October 10, 2018 5:51 AM EDT
    @Duvain same with me :D started as an Assassin got bored after a while and went to mage. Been mage ever since. I dont know if i ever wore heavy armor :D
    • 165 posts
    October 10, 2018 6:02 AM EDT

    I can certainly tell you actually that I have never worn heavy armor! :D

    Also this character I made back then with Bound Bow, Alteration, Restoration, Conjuration  was the most fun I had in the game compared to all the assassins I played up to this point it was also the first build I uploaded at TV. Oh and it was my first character with which I completed the main questline, believe it or not it took me months after the game's release to make a complete character with main questline done. :P

    • 393 posts
    October 10, 2018 6:13 AM EDT

    Duvain said:

    The Men are afraid of the Elves because they live for so long and they are more advanced in society, arts, thinkers, magic etc. and want to conquer them in order to keep them in check and benefit from their civilization and achievements in return.

    Are you really speaking of the men of TES? This doesn't sound like them at all. Men, i.e. Nords, and to a lesser extent Imperials, aren't afraid of the elves and don't give a damn about their culture, art, etc. They just see them as evil because they are different and their worldview contradicts that of the men, and want to kill the majority of them and subjugate the rest. Also they generally think that killing is fun and killing elves is a cool break from killing each other.

    Duvain said:

    The Elves are afraid of Men because they breed like rabbits and are much more numerical than them and they are afraid they might overtake them which is what happened.

    Now this is true. I'd also add that the Elves find the warmongering mentality of the Men quite disturbing. Not to mention that they are barbaric and don't stop to think before they swing their axes.

    As for the actions of the Thalmor in the 4th Era, don't know about you, but to me they look like the actions of people whose patience has run out and who are very much fed up with the Empire and things like the Blades wreaking havoc in their territory.

    And yes, I also think all this discussion should be moved to a separate topic.

    • 393 posts
    October 10, 2018 6:59 AM EDT

    Seems like I sort of join the assassin team. Although I'm not really a fan of actual assassins, all my characters lean toward the sneaky side even if they are tanks. I just can't have it otherwise. I would normally play a mage, but in some games, I'll opt for a rogue.

    • 194 posts
    October 10, 2018 8:49 AM EDT

    Justiciar Thorien said:

    I don't know about you, but I would feel slightly uncomfortable if my neighbor was worshipping the greatest opressor and mass-murderer in history as a god, saying how cool it would be to kill more of my kind and singing odes to all of the other fellows who did so in the past. Because, you know, today he is singing songs, what if tomorrow he takes a gun and comes over?

    The history repeats itself, in one way or another. The history that has already repeated itself at least three times is almost certainly going to repeat the fourth time. Today all those Nords and Imperials just pray, and tomorrow there is some new Reman or Hjalti or whoever, and they will happily snatch their swords, without a shade of hesitation, and march to conquer the world. Like they have done multiple times in the past.

    To the men, this past may be a long forgotten history (or not so forgotten, if they still sing about it), to the elves it happened just a few generations back.

    So if I have to choose between being an opressor today or my children being oppressed and slaughtered tomorrow, I choose the first. I'll hate every moment of it, but I'll always choose the future of my kin over keeping my hands clean.

    ilanisilver said:that bit about man and mer being neither good nor bad sounds like Voldemort, telling Harry there’s no good or evil, only power and those too weak to seek it. Or here, those who will attain it at all costs. To become those rulers you believe only have power in mind and not the good of the people.

    If someone wants to attain power at all costs, usually it doesn't speak as much of their evilness as it does of their desperation or/and ignorance. In most cases, it's someone who doesn't know what he is doing, doesn't see the possible consequences, or is too far gone to care. If he does, that's another story, but then we should ask what exactly is the cost.

    And if you have no issue with Kirkbride, what do you think of his double standards? In his view, some trigger-happy human who kills elves by thousands is a cool guy, but elves are evil for just existing and not worshipping his beloved Lorkhan and Talos.

     

     

    sounds a bit like the Operative from Serenity. And yeah, I get it. I’m more than a little uncomfortable with religion, and I don’t feel comfortable at all with the majority of my country worshipping a religion I feel threatens me. IRL, that is. But looking at countries and tribes and other cultural groups waging war because of religion, it just never ends. One would have to completely wipe out everyone, every supporter and probably their children, and everyone who’s ever even thought well of that religion or anyone involved in it to get the job done, which, yeah. To me, the cost is just far too high. Religious wars never seem to end well. And more to the point, never seem to end. 

    And I don’t care for MK’s lore. He’s not the ideal, and not something I base most of my TES worldview on. It was just one small piece in the “what the hell are the Thalmor thinking?” puzzle. Not a big fan of Ysgramor either, but there might be some parallels between what Ysgramor did and your view of what the Thalmor are doing now. They couldn’t go back to Atmora, and they can’t risk another war with the Snow Elves, so why not just rid the world of them altogether before the have the chance t strike? And honestly, I”m not a big lore person at all, I rarely read it unless it has something to do with a story I’m writing. 

    And yes, sorry Rogue, for hijacking your thread! :)

    • 393 posts
    October 10, 2018 9:35 AM EDT

    ilanisilver said:

    sounds a bit like the Operative from Serenity. And yeah, I get it. I’m more than a little uncomfortable with religion, and I don’t feel comfortable at all with the majority of my country worshipping a religion I feel threatens me. IRL, that is. But looking at countries and tribes and other cultural groups waging war because of religion, it just never ends. One would have to completely wipe out everyone, every supporter and probably their children, and everyone who’s ever even thought well of that religion or anyone involved in it to get the job done, which, yeah. To me, the cost is just far too high. Religious wars never seem to end well. And more to the point, never seem to end. 

    And I don’t care for MK’s lore. He’s not the ideal, and not something I base most of my TES worldview on. It was just one small piece in the “what the hell are the Thalmor thinking?” puzzle. Not a big fan of Ysgramor either, but there might be some parallels between what Ysgramor did and your view of what the Thalmor are doing now. They couldn’t go back to Atmora, and they can’t risk another war with the Snow Elves, so why not just rid the world of them altogether before the have the chance t strike? And honestly, I”m not a big lore person at all, I rarely read it unless it has something to do with a story I’m writing. 

    And yes, sorry Rogue, for hijacking your thread! :)

    Lol. Well, I'm not really a flowers and unicorns person, no, I'm all for order and discipline.

    Oh, if you talk about RL, then I'm entirely on the same page with you. The RL religion is a useless bulls**t that only turns people into mindless fanatics, and there aren't enough words to describe how I despise it. Any religion, not just a particular one. Faith should inspire people to be better, but in reality it does the exact opposite.

    In TES though, where the gods are real, it's an entirely different matter. In a world where faith can influence reality, "just quietly worshipping Daedra" might result in an Oblivion Crisis.

    But there is one very big difference between Ysgramor and the Thalmor. The Thalmor don't aim to entirely wipe the men from Tamriel, only to control them. If you look at every single case of genocide in the history, it was always men killing elves, not the other way around. The only exception was Saarthal, and when you look at it... I'm not advocating the Snow Elves, not at all, but there is a fact. They killed the population of one city, they didn't come to Atmora to kill every man, woman, and child there. And most likely, the Snow Elves who lived, say, in the territory of the current Haafingar didn't have anything to do with it. Yet, Ysgramor killed them all, without hesitation.

    The reason why the Thalmor decided to go to war against the Empire is to make sure that there will be no more Ysgramors, Hoags, Wulfharths, etc.

    • 194 posts
    October 10, 2018 9:45 AM EDT

    Justiciar Thorien said:

    The reason why the Thalmor decided to go to war against the Empire is to make sure that there will be no more Ysgramors, Hoags, Wulfharths, etc.

    I can definitely get behind that - no more Ysgramors, Wulfharths, Hjaltis, Tibers, etc. I would add, no more oppression and control, but just like IRL, nice work if you can get it, right? The realist in me says no way, but the idealist in me says there‘s got to be a way. Of course, my husband’s a career soldier, so he tends to do the equivalent of patting me on the head and saying “aw, you’re so cute,” when I say things like that. He’s very much on the side of “human nature will never allow peace,” and just reading a comments section on a random article this morning made me rethink all my previous statements. ;)

    • 126 posts
    October 10, 2018 10:24 AM EDT

    Faith and Religion are not the same.  An individual has faith, an organisation has religion.  Religion is responsible for the majority of errors that have ever occured in the world.  I have faith, but I'm far from religious.  Religious war is, ironically, the devil, and they never end well, neither in reality or fiction.  And when a God can be proven to exist like in TES, it just gets even worse.  So, sure, the Thalmor have somewhat of a point, but at the end of the day it's still not enough.

    Good Lord, what have we done?  I talk a bit about roleplay and come back to find the thread's gone bonkers.

    Duvain said:

    I can certainly tell you actually that I have never worn heavy armor! :D

    Also this character I made back then with Bound Bow, Alteration, Restoration, Conjuration  was the most fun I had in the game compared to all the assassins I played up to this point it was also the first build I uploaded at TV. Oh and it was my first character with which I completed the main questline, believe it or not it took me months after the game's release to make a complete character with main questline done. :P

    Gameplay wise, I do tend to play the heavily armored type, and I'm fond of ranged weaponry too.  I find there's a certain serenity in playing what is essentially a tank in a fantasy RPG.  So to you, Duvain, I say wear heavy armour and use that Bound Bow.  Use that Alteration and Restoration magic, and marvel at how what was once a problem no longer is.

    "Psst, Rogue, am I doing it right?"

    • 393 posts
    October 10, 2018 10:27 AM EDT

    ilanisilver said:

    I can definitely get behind that - no more Ysgramors, Wulfharths, Hjaltis, Tibers, etc. I would add, no more oppression and control, but just like IRL, nice work if you can get it, right? The realist in me says no way, but the idealist in me says there‘s got to be a way. Of course, my husband’s a career soldier, so he tends to do the equivalent of patting me on the head and saying “aw, you’re so cute,” when I say things like that. He’s very much on the side of “human nature will never allow peace,” and just reading a comments section on a random article this morning made me rethink all my previous statements. ;)

    I agree with your husband. Humans will always be monsters. They can overcome that darkness inside them, strive to be better, but there always will be those who just don't care or "Talos-worshippers" who just like being assholes.

    There always will be control, and to some extent, oppression. But the thing is, oppression and control aren't absolute. And they aren't totally bad. There is no black and white, it's always shades of grey. Is a law that bans murder oppressive? You'll say no, but some people who happen to think killing is fun might disagree with you. You are able to live in relative safety only because the law "oppresses" those who otherwise would take everything from you. There must be control because not everyone is able and willing to control themselves.

    There are and always will be some predators in human skin who like anarchy more. Of course, these guys would thrive in a world where the strongest predator wins. In the world the fans of Lorkhan dream of.

    I believe that ignorant barbarians who don't know what they are doing shouldn't be allowed to do what they want. The ones who are in charge must be at least educated.

    • 165 posts
    October 10, 2018 10:40 AM EDT

    @Primrose - I always wanted to try my hand on a heavy armored character I might go with an orc witch hunter or bounty / treasure hunter living away from cities and only being out and about for heads and dungeons.

    • 393 posts
    October 10, 2018 10:47 AM EDT

    Duvain said:

    @Primrose - I always wanted to try my hand on a heavy armored character I might go with an orc witch hunter or bounty / treasure hunter living away from cities and only being out and about for heads and dungeons.

    I have one such fellow, only Imperial. He hunts undead, necromancers, beasts. And he actually has a good reason to be away from cities. A furry and clawed reason))) One of my favorite characters, I've had so many hilarious moments with him.

    • 165 posts
    October 10, 2018 11:05 AM EDT

    @Thorien - Yeah I 'm all about survival and was digging for some time now into the Imperials and to be more precise the Colovians. From a first look into them they give me the impression that they are similar in the Empire as Sparta was in Greece. They are much more hardy and rough compared to Nibenesse, militaristic, have a bit of isolation in them and they are also proud and value  independence, self preservation and strong mental fortitude and lastly they act as the muscle of the Empire. On another note Imperious mod is giving them some cool racial abilities and I have never played an Imperial character in Skyrim so I might go for that. A big grim Colovian guy that is out for blood or twitst it a bit and make him a wuss that was thrown into Skyrim and now he has to survive the harsh and cold land in hardcore mode - RIP. :D

    Coming onto the theme of the topic something I noticed playing Skyrim and other rpg/mmorpg is that even though I grew up in a rural area (kinda close to a city but the place is still rural) and thought that I very much prefer cities with all the comforts when playing a game I tend to appreciate rural areas and survival much more than city areas.


    This post was edited by Duvain at October 10, 2018 11:07 AM EDT
    • 194 posts
    October 10, 2018 11:15 AM EDT
    Imperious makes playing an imperial support character so incredibly satisfying. My favorite ones now.
    • 165 posts
    October 10, 2018 11:24 AM EDT

    @Ilani - Certainly, coupled with Ordinator's Restoration perks as well they should be the best choise for a support character. I thought sometimes to grab a few follower mods like Inigo and other custom followers and play such a character but never got around to do it. If I make one 'll probably make a support character with healing/auras and such and unarmed. Ordinator's unarmed perks are pretty good sadly the game's animations for unarmed aren't :/

    • 393 posts
    October 10, 2018 11:38 AM EDT

    Yes, Colovians are tough guys. Read the book Rislav the Righteous, you might like that one.

    My Imp is a one with a twist, a real Cyro-Nord. Imperial mother (more likely Nibenese than Colovian), Nord father, born in Sentinel, raised by his Nord relatives in Morthal. He is a rather gentle soul, Lawful Good, worships Kynareth. Feels sad about the civil war. His furry problem forced him to leave his clan's home and live in a small house a few miles from Morthal. He is something between a mercenary and a hunter. Hunts for meat and furs, sells them in Morthal. Takes bounties on bandits, necromancers, vampires, and wild beasts. Checks the nearby tombs for abnormal activity from time to time. Sometimes delivers letters to other holds, might occasionally guard a caravan.

    Eventually he joined the Companions and later the Legion.

    He is my only Imperial so far, the only human I actually played for some time. I like him a lot and think he could make a cool build, if I knew how to make builds that is.

    • 194 posts
    October 10, 2018 11:45 AM EDT

    ...furry problem? I am intrigued. 

     

    @Duvain, My favorite character right now is my Imperial resto mage. Ordinator’s Restoration perks and the Master level Resto spell Infinite Light is unbelievably fun on a battlefield. It heals your allies and smites your enemies in a matter of minutes, and I don’t have to worry about anyone bitching at me for accidentally hitting them with an offensive spell. Combined with the Ordinator Vancian Magic perk, the character is undoubtedly OP, but I LOVE that. So. Satisfying. 


    This post was edited by ilanisilver at October 10, 2018 11:47 AM EDT
    • 393 posts
    October 10, 2018 11:54 AM EDT

    ilanisilver said:

    ...furry problem? I am intrigued. 

     

    Why, the one that makes you become all furry under the full moon)))) And it's definitely not a gift, it's very much a curse.

    • 194 posts
    October 10, 2018 11:57 AM EDT

    Can you get furry without becoming a Companion? I honestly have no idea; even after 7 years there are way too many things I don’t know about the game and am still just finding out.