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Ulfric Stormcloak vs High King Torygg

    • 197 posts
    February 26, 2018 1:25 AM EST

    Valric said:

    I cannot express how much I love this Discusion. Traditional Nords find this to a honorable fight, while the civilized Nords find it a dishonorable one. Outside of the Nords I'm sure most people would find it dishonorable with or without using the Thu'um. 

    In my opinion I think Torygg was a Traditional Nord. He accepted Ulfric's duel eventhough he knew it would mean death and speaking with him in Sovengarde you learn he did this to keep his honor. Even more proof to this is that he is in Sovengarde in the first place, The resting place of true nords. Even so Ulfric did something questionably dishonorable. Speaking with Torygg in Sovengarde he tells you this. 

    "I faced him fearlessly - my fate inescapable, yet my honor is unstained - can Ulfric say the same?"―High King Toryg

    A true traditional Nord questioning Ulfric's Honor. Seems like there is more to all this than meets the eye by traditional Nord standards. Seems like Torygg had some imformation we didn't. For what we know of the fight it seems honorable enough for True Nords. How about his motives then? I know that's been spoken of already in here so I'm going to skip over those reasons and add another. The Thalmor told Ulfric to do it. The Dossier found in the Thalmor Embassy on Ulfric gives us all the information that this is entirely possible.

    "Ulric first came to our attention during the first war against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imprial City(the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset. The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

    Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the Civil War proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed."

    I find it entirely possible that Ulfric is being blackmailed by the Thalmor to do their bidding. He thinks that he is the cause for the Imperial City falling during the Great War and he would do anything to keep this information from leaking. Like fighting a 15 year old to the death. 

     

     Aaagh, it’s fascinating to debate the extent of influence the Dominion had over Ulfric since his interrogation. I find it possible, very possible. In one of my stories, Elenwen goads Ulfric into the Markarth Incident, and I find it very believable they‘ve used Ulfric, at least indirectly, all this time. I never thought about them blackmailing him into such destabilization, though, but it’s a fascinating possibility. 

    • 41 posts
    February 26, 2018 1:41 AM EST
    Ulfric would probably beat the crap out of Torygg even without using Thuum.
    • 197 posts
    February 26, 2018 1:51 AM EST

    Cannon said: Ulfric would probably beat the crap out of Torygg even without using Thuum.

    Lol definitely.  Ulfric has a flair for theater. That speech he gives to Galmar in his throne room... enough to make Olivier weep. 

    • 13 posts
    February 26, 2018 1:55 AM EST

    Cannon said: Ulfric would probably beat the crap out of Torygg even without using Thuum.

    I assume almost every adult in skyrim could of. He was only 13-16 years old at the time of the fight. Looking at his stats online he has half of the players starting stats and asuuming you wear what you died in when sent to sovengarde he had no armor either.

    • 320 posts
    February 26, 2018 2:16 AM EST

    Ilanisilver said:

    Valric said:

    I cannot express how much I love this Discusion. Traditional Nords find this to a honorable fight, while the civilized Nords find it a dishonorable one. Outside of the Nords I'm sure most people would find it dishonorable with or without using the Thu'um. 

    In my opinion I think Torygg was a Traditional Nord. He accepted Ulfric's duel eventhough he knew it would mean death and speaking with him in Sovengarde you learn he did this to keep his honor. Even more proof to this is that he is in Sovengarde in the first place, The resting place of true nords. Even so Ulfric did something questionably dishonorable. Speaking with Torygg in Sovengarde he tells you this. 

    "I faced him fearlessly - my fate inescapable, yet my honor is unstained - can Ulfric say the same?"―High King Toryg

    A true traditional Nord questioning Ulfric's Honor. Seems like there is more to all this than meets the eye by traditional Nord standards. Seems like Torygg had some imformation we didn't. For what we know of the fight it seems honorable enough for True Nords. How about his motives then? I know that's been spoken of already in here so I'm going to skip over those reasons and add another. The Thalmor told Ulfric to do it. The Dossier found in the Thalmor Embassy on Ulfric gives us all the information that this is entirely possible.

    "Ulric first came to our attention during the first war against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imprial City(the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset. The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

    Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the Civil War proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed."

    I find it entirely possible that Ulfric is being blackmailed by the Thalmor to do their bidding. He thinks that he is the cause for the Imperial City falling during the Great War and he would do anything to keep this information from leaking. Like fighting a 15 year old to the death. 

     

     Aaagh, it’s fascinating to debate the extent of influence the Dominion had over Ulfric since his interrogation. I find it possible, very possible. In one of my stories, Elenwen goads Ulfric into the Markarth Incident, and I find it very believable they‘ve used Ulfric, at least indirectly, all this time. I never thought about them blackmailing him into such destabilization, though, but it’s a fascinating possibility. 

    My headcanon is that they did some serious brainwashing on him Manchurian Candidate-style. 

    • 647 posts
    February 26, 2018 2:37 AM EST

    In terms of Ulfric being an asset. I somewhat sincerely doubt he´s working directly for Thalmor. Since Pocky is mentioning brainwashing you have to take into account that torture creates a very interesting relationship between the torturer and the tortured. So I wouldn´t say that Ulfric is working for Thalmor, I would say he has been manipulated and everything he does is because he believes it is right, but also everything he does works for Thalmor´s goal. Civil War is just one big plot from Dominion and it works so god damn well because they were lucky and got their hands on Ulfric. The guy is just their victim, basicaly only making things worse even though he believes he´s right.

    But it´s tough.

    He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imprial City(the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset. The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

    This overally doesn´t make much sense to me, unless he was really brainwashed as Pocky says. So he´s tortured, made to believe IC fell because of him and then he´s allowed to escape. They let him plant the seeds and then they conctact him? How is it he wouldn´t tell them to fuck off? Why would it take Markarth Incident for him to do exactly that? 

    All in all, Thalmor are behind Ulfric´s actions, they orchestrated it so that he would start Civil War. Whether he cooperated at first or not is completely different topic.

     

     

    • 41 posts
    February 26, 2018 5:24 AM EST
    13-16 years old? He looks like more.
    • 13 posts
    February 26, 2018 5:40 AM EST

    Cannon said: 13-16 years old? He looks like more.

    Oh no he was a teenager. There are several quotes from the game that gives hints to his age. Mainly "He was barely old enough to wield a sword". In my guess he was 15 years old. Which explains the facial hair. 

    • 197 posts
    February 26, 2018 9:57 AM EST

    A-Pocky-Hah! said:

    [

     

     Aaagh, it’s fascinating to debate the extent of influence the Dominion had over Ulfric since his interrogation. I find it possible, very possible. In one of my stories, Elenwen goads Ulfric into the Markarth Incident, and I find it very believable they‘ve used Ulfric, at least indirectly, all this time. I never thought about them blackmailing him into such destabilization, though, but it’s a fascinating possibility. 

     

    My headcanon is that they did some serious brainwashing on him Manchurian Candidate-style. 

     

    This is one of my favorite ideas about Ulfric. I wrote some of these possibilities into one of my stories, and it’s still one of my favorite theories about why Ulfric is the way he is, why he does the things he does. 

    https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/5cedgd/the_pride_of_ulfric_stormcloak/

     

    edit: i totally screwed up the quotes on this. Sorry. 


    This post was edited by ilanisilver at February 26, 2018 9:58 AM EST
    • 320 posts
    February 26, 2018 10:24 AM EST

    Ilanisilver said:

    A-Pocky-Hah! said:

    My headcanon is that they did some serious brainwashing on him Manchurian Candidate-style. 

     

    This is one of my favorite ideas about Ulfric. I wrote some of these possibilities into one of my stories, and it’s still one of my favorite theories about why Ulfric is the way he is, why he does the things he does. 

    https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/5cedgd/the_pride_of_ulfric_stormcloak/

     

    edit: i totally screwed up the quotes on this. Sorry. 

    No problem. In return, you just provided me with a tasty late night lore snack for my brain. :) 

    • 197 posts
    February 26, 2018 11:33 AM EST

    There’s also this. Not lore, no. But comedy gold. 

     

    https://janus3003.deviantart.com/art/Skyrim-Oddities-Ulfric-Stormcloak-359029246

    • 168 posts
    February 26, 2018 4:20 PM EST

    Ilanisilver said:

    There’s also this. Not lore, no. But comedy gold. 

     

    https://janus3003.deviantart.com/art/Skyrim-Oddities-Ulfric-Stormcloak-359029246

    That's hilarious, I'm dying. Funniest thing I've seen all year so far that didn't have to do with steamed hams.

    • 197 posts
    February 26, 2018 4:31 PM EST
    Chris H. said:

    Ilanisilver said:

    There’s also this. Not lore, no. But comedy gold. 

     

    https://janus3003.deviantart.com/art/Skyrim-Oddities-Ulfric-Stormcloak-359029246

    That's hilarious, I'm dying. Funniest thing I've seen all year so far that didn't have to do with steamed hams.

    Exxxxcellent. Read the one about Diplomacy, too. It totally rips on the Oblivion way of persuading someone to raise their disposition. I cried.