Forums » The Lounge

Decision Time: Ning or SocialEngine

This topic has been closed.
    • 694 posts
    September 28, 2016 2:34 PM EDT

    Mason said:

    I really don't think there's any reason to lose impatient members over this, maybe they wouldn't be so impatient if they actually knew what was going on around here and the challenges you guys are facing?

    I know a main page post takes up some time but it still remains the primary way of keeping in touch with all the members....and the members are who you're doing all this hard work for at the end of the day.

    When communication breaks down you build a rod for your own back. You get members like myself needlessly worrying about content and the future of the site and making posts that just spread fear and uncertainty...

    ...meanwhile you guys are all working hard trying to fix things and (clearly) feeling frustrated and underappreciated.

    Bonelord said:

    @Todd Perhaps the time has come for phil or Edana or even myself to post dailly or weekly updates on whats going on behind the scenes, a quick PM to myself would see me make regular behind scene updates

    I hear you guys. :) It just might be a little tougher in practice is all I'm thinking. If I spend two hours each night testing and tinkering in the backend making small improvements here and there, tiny adjustments one way then another--what of that is fit to post? Something like "general improvements" doesn't say much, but a bulleted list is probably too fine grain, especially if issues aren't resolved in one go and take several nights.

    I'll talk it over with the Admins, see if we can find some middle ground that's quick for us and meaningful for community members. :)


    This post was edited by Edana at September 28, 2016 2:36 PM EDT
    • 367 posts
    September 28, 2016 3:02 PM EDT

    I’ve read these comments over the course of a few days; coming back to them and trying to get a paw on everyone’s perspectives.

    I for one have had innumerable problems with SE regarding logging on and even now I have bad days where the computer firewall blocks SE.

    Members knew their way around Ning and it was easier to go from one discussion/group to another. It was easier to join in with conversations and discussions and a lot simpler to follow them. Photos were better displayed and the customization of our profile Pages were great. We could add links and pictures to our pages showing off all our work and often that of other members.

     

    Looking at what we have spent on SE isn’t the issue we are looking at. Why not count out how much we spent on Ning and compare that to Social? Ning has had a lot more money from us…

    Social Engine does drive me crazy at times. I suffer with formatting issues in the Blogs and group discussions aren’t so easily followed. There are still times despite Todd’s efforts when I can’t log in.

    The reason I say all this is so everyone knows I am not on the SE wagon. None of you will find me on a rocky overhang howling for it.

     

    However, let me offer a different perspective to the current views we have. (It’s a bit weird but that’s me).

    We all reside in a Town called Ning. It’s quite a large place which rests in the valley of a mountain range. A mountain range that is cracking and one which is showing all the signs of collapsing, burying us all under thousands of tones of rock.

    Now it might not get buried, then again it might. The trouble is that should the mountain come down then there is nothing anyone of us can do about it. We will get no warning, no notice. You wake up to find the site is gone. There’s no coming back from this, its obliterated. We might as well call the town Helgen. Tamriel Vault is gone.

    Think on this for a moment; it’s extremely important. I’m not saying it to make everyone afraid but we all need to understand this is a possibility if we go back to Ning.

     

    Now, further away from the mountains is a quiet plain called Social Engine. There’s a forest on one side, a river flowing through on the other side and stony soil. No town, no village, no buildings.

     

    This is what we are currently facing; Ning and a possible collapse or an empty field with limited resources.

    Just because Ning don’t collapse this month, don’t mean it won’t collapse next month or even six months down the line.

     

    Social Engine’s Tamriel Vault isn’t what we want. It certainly isn’t what I want to see when I visit the site. We need to look not at the empty field but the town we can create here. Ning wasn’t built over night. It took years of trials and reforming to make the site what it had become. Don’t look at the empty field and despair so quickly. Look at what we can do here; ways on how can we improve on what we have.  

    Soil can be toiled, trees cut down and buildings erected with the timber. Over time, crops will grow.

    When you hold up an acorn, what do you see?

    An acorn? Or possibilities?

     

    Despite the flaws which Social Engine has, and let’s be honest, it has them… I for one say let’s give it a chance. Nothing is permanent, should Ning survive and flourish then maybe one day when the mountain looks stronger we could return. Until then, I say let’s make SE the best site we can. I don’t see the site for what it is but what it can become. But the trouble is it needs us all to do it. Twenty (rough number here) Hosts and Admins can’t create the site you all want, it will take each and every member to create it by adding content and posting descussions. We need to build on the comunity.

    I don’t want to wake up and find the site gone; do any of you?

    Told you my comment was weird.

    Sotek Loyal Hound of Hircine.

    • 140 posts
    September 28, 2016 3:51 PM EDT

    I hear what you're saying, Sotek. I'm just worried that (To try and keep the metaphor going) by the time our new village is complete, most of our citizens would have moved away to other towns. I feel that most people don't have the patience to wait a year or so until everything's up and running smoothly, where in the mean time, other places like ****, Wikia, UESP, (Hell, I think even ProBoards would be better than this) are already established.

    Now don't get me wrong, I almost always prefer to think about the long term. But right now, I find the short term as being just as bad. No members=No Site.


    This post was edited by Deleted Member at September 28, 2016 4:43 PM EDT
  • September 28, 2016 4:49 PM EDT

    Caesar hates the new platform, is a fair statment, would you agree Caesar? Assuming your answer is correct, tell us what is it about SE that you hate so much? what is it you cannpt do? what is it that you want would like to see, in your next comment please explain, and I will do all that is in my power to put things right for you.

    • 277 posts
    September 28, 2016 5:53 PM EDT

    You guys filled my mailbox today, lol! I swear the gmail on my phone just kept ringing. :))

    Listen, Social Engine is not bad at all, just new and a bit more different than Ning. The sooner you accept the change the better it will be for all of us. Even though I might butt heads over certain things with an admin or two every now and then, it's clear to me they're hard at work. They're actually solving problems in a timely manner. You want proof? Fine! :P Last weekend I posted my one and only Fallout 4 character build in the Workshop. At that time I learned the editor was a f#cking mess. Upon posting, it messed up my text / pictures formatting and even randomly sent some text into the depths of Oblivion. To this day those sentences still haven't shown up. Phil noticed this and told me he'd try and take care of the issues. One or two days later the problems were solved. Two days is a short amount of time for taking care of something related to a simple hobby of anybody's.

    It's because of this timely action I was able to post this today. As you can see the quality of it as far as formatting goes is clearly not lesser than the average character build posted on Ning. Hell, the presentation respects my own high standards. So, no compromises were made. Therefore, people, be patient. Nobody obligates the admins to put the site on its feet. They're doing it for free in their own time in-between real life responsibilities. XD

    • 1595 posts
    September 28, 2016 5:58 PM EDT

    Edana said:

    Bonelord said:

    @Todd Perhaps the time has come for phil or Edana or even myself to post dailly or weekly updates on whats going on behind the scenes, a quick PM to myself would see me make regular behind scene updates

    I hear you guys. :) It just might be a little tougher in practice is all I'm thinking. If I spend two hours each night testing and tinkering in the backend making small improvements here and there, tiny adjustments one way then another--what of that is fit to post? Something like "general improvements" doesn't say much, but a bulleted list is probably too fine grain, especially if issues aren't resolved in one go and take several nights.

    I'll talk it over with the Admins, see if we can find some middle ground that's quick for us and meaningful for community members. :)

    True to her word Edana has presented this suggestion. For my part I will compile a list of changes made by the Group plugin as well as features which they are still looking into.


    This post was edited by Paws at September 28, 2016 5:58 PM EDT
    • 1595 posts
    September 28, 2016 6:08 PM EDT

    Noodles said:

    You guys filled my mailbox today, lol! I swear the gmail on my phone just kept ringing. :))

    Listen, Social Engine is not bad at all, just new and a bit more different than Ning. The sooner you accept the change the better it will be for all of us. Even though I might butt heads over certain things with an admin or two every now and then, it's clear to me they're hard at work. They're actually solving problems in a timely manner. You want proof? Fine! :P Last weekend I posted my one and only Fallout 4 character build in the Workshop. At that time I learned the editor was a f#cking mess. Upon posting, it messed up my text / pictures formatting and even randomly sent some text into the depths of Oblivion. To this day those sentences still haven't shown up. Phil noticed this and told me he'd try and take care of the issues. One or two days later the problems were solved. Two days is a short amount of time for taking care of something related to a simple hobby of anybody's.

    It's because of this timely action I was able to post this today. As you can see the quality of it as far as formatting goes is clearly not lesser than the average character build posted on Ning. Hell, the presentation respects my own high standards. So, no compromises were made. Therefore, people, be patient. Nobody obligates the admins to put the site on its feet. They're doing it for free in their own time in-between real life responsibilities. XD

    I am very grateful for your patience and know how incredibly frsutrating it is. Your build has beautifully demonstrated that we can work together and solve issues if it is within our ability to do so. You flagged a few issues, Karver and Goldie flagged a couple more, I passed them to Edana and the devs and they implemented the changes. Yay teamwork :)

    • 1595 posts
    September 28, 2016 6:13 PM EDT

    Tom said:

    While I find this new site an utter pain to navigate, the investment into Social engine and Ning's price makes this a rather simple answer; stay. I haven't been active because I find the new site an utter headache to navigate. I like some of the new features when it comes to text replies and quotes, but if the manner of how information is displayed for posts and options for jumping to the last reply were avaliale, most of my complaints would be remedied.

    The ability to jump to the last reply to a topic directly from the feed is being looked into, right now it is a matter of cost preventing us from actioning it immediately. We are looking into alternative quote estimates and trying to triage our priorities.

    Can I ask, what is the issue regarding how information is displayed for posts? I can look into it if you can give me a bit more detail :)


    This post was edited by Paws at September 28, 2016 6:14 PM EDT
    • 277 posts
    September 28, 2016 6:19 PM EDT

    Phil said:

    Noodles said:

    You guys filled my mailbox today, lol! I swear the gmail on my phone just kept ringing. :))

    Listen, Social Engine is not bad at all, just new and a bit more different than Ning. The sooner you accept the change the better it will be for all of us. Even though I might butt heads over certain things with an admin or two every now and then, it's clear to me they're hard at work. They're actually solving problems in a timely manner. You want proof? Fine! :P Last weekend I posted my one and only Fallout 4 character build in the Workshop. At that time I learned the editor was a f#cking mess. Upon posting, it messed up my text / pictures formatting and even randomly sent some text into the depths of Oblivion. To this day those sentences still haven't shown up. Phil noticed this and told me he'd try and take care of the issues. One or two days later the problems were solved. Two days is a short amount of time for taking care of something related to a simple hobby of anybody's.

    It's because of this timely action I was able to post this today. As you can see the quality of it as far as formatting goes is clearly not lesser than the average character build posted on Ning. Hell, the presentation respects my own high standards. So, no compromises were made. Therefore, people, be patient. Nobody obligates the admins to put the site on its feet. They're doing it for free in their own time in-between real life responsibilities. XD

    I am very grateful for your patience and know how incredibly frsutrating it is. Your build has beautifully demonstrated that we can work together and solve issues if it is within our ability to do so. You flagged a few issues, Karver and Goldie flagged a couple more, I passed them to Edana and the devs and they implemented the changes. Yay teamwork :)

    And I am grateful for all your (everyone involved that is) work. But Phil, we need a better reply system. This quote thing feels to me like "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law..." or however the line goes. XD

    • 1595 posts
    September 28, 2016 6:29 PM EDT

    Ah, I see. Right. That's one of the reasons I like the new activity feed as it allows that informal conversation to take place. Unfortuanately posts and feed replies are not linked, so that if someone did make a great reply on the feed it would get lost eventually.

    That said, I actually hated Ning's reply system. After a half dozen replies and replies to replies with more replies pending, the ability to reply and kno for certain what you were replying to became as confusing as this sentence :D

    We can look into alternatives, would you say it is a high priority issue though? This systeem is very Thalmor or BoS - sticks up asses time - but it getss the job done.... I guess?

    • 277 posts
    September 28, 2016 6:44 PM EDT

    Phil said:

    Ah, I see. Right. That's one of the reasons I like the new activity feed as it allows that informal conversation to take place. Unfortuanately posts and feed replies are not linked, so that if someone did make a great reply on the feed it would get lost eventually.

    That said, I actually hated Ning's reply system. After a half dozen replies and replies to replies with more replies pending, the ability to reply and kno for certain what you were replying to became as confusing as this sentence :D

    We can look into alternatives, would you say it is a high priority issue though? This systeem is very Thalmor or BoS - sticks up asses time - but it getss the job done.... I guess?

    It creeps me out a bit but I can live with it for now. I wouldn't know too much details on how the BoS operate. :D I exterminated them in both my playthroughs. Glory, you shall be missed, but never forgotten!

    • 140 posts
    September 29, 2016 7:41 AM EDT

    Bonelord said:

    Caesar hates the new platform, is a fair statment, would you agree Caesar? Assuming your answer is correct, tell us what is it about SE that you hate so much? what is it you cannpt do? what is it that you want would like to see, in your next comment please explain, and I will do all that is in my power to put things right for you.

    I've already stated all of my issues with SocialEngine, but I'll go through them again to clarify:

    • Finding groups is much more tedious without the drop-down lists
    • Going to the last reply in a discussion requires going through a number of pages just to get there
    • On Ning you had the option to reply to another reply, whereas now you have to use this blockquote thing
    • The Notifications system (Perhaps the only decent thing here) has never worked right for me. No matter how much I read through them or use the "Mark all as Read" option, they almost never get cleared
    • Editting profile Pages is way more complicated than it needs to be, and you're unable to add personal details, or even Links
    • The Photos and Video sections just look like an utter mess to me, with all those News, Sports, Politics, etc. categories

    I could go on, but it seems pretty pointless to keep arguing. The Admins all seem to like SocialEngine, so that pretty much seals the deal.

  • September 29, 2016 10:02 AM EDT

    Oh dear, yes the marked as read option does not work for me either dunno whats up with that, however I understand that at the moment finance seems to be a bit of an issue, 1400 bucks so far plus server costs, there are plug ins available that will provide a fix for all the issues you have listed, also I understand many more plug ins are avalable as the site is very modular as we all know and, through time could be tailored to the needs of all.

    As far as editing photos go the new system works perfectly check out Noodles build the Neuromancer,  the photos in that are astonishingly good, and easy to edit and resize with a mouse, please be patient Caesar all will come good, the move back to Ning is really not an option long term I suspect everyone knows that.

    Phil is shortly going to publish a roundup of what he and the other Admins have been doing to make life easier, and provide a list of possible plugins that could be gotten to improve matters more.

    • 694 posts
    September 29, 2016 10:29 AM EDT

    Just an update here to say that I've posted the Site Update Noticeboard so that folks know what the status if the site features and maintenance are. You'll find a breakdown there of what we're currently working on, as well as the current progress.

    I've also posted the first comment to let people know that video plugin testing has commenced and that as a stopgap measure for the lack of a subtab navigation system, we have temporarily added a new newsfeed tab item so that you can access the main page of any group from your member homepage. Phil will also be posting up a summary of some other things the team has been working on for the past month or so shortly.


    This post was edited by Edana at September 29, 2016 10:29 AM EDT
    • 20 posts
    September 30, 2016 9:25 AM EDT

    Sounds like SE is the way forward, so after some hesitation that has my vote.  

    It'll be some time before I post a build here, partly due to having to learn the new system (which is probably just a matter of making the attempt), but partly due to the fact that I haven't played Skyrim in a while (and I think my Totem series of builds has earned me a little vacation! :P).  

    It is encouraging to see people working to resolve the issues of the site, and to know that there will be changes.  

    For me as a potential builder, a major concern is having some way to know who has started a particular discussion (without having to open the discussion itself).  This is because I have a MASSIVE ego and simply MUST see my name splattered across every surface... but also, it's seriously nice to know "Ahh! A new Phil build!" or whatever.

    It's surprising to me that this isn't a default option - every forum & website I can think of mentions both the starter of the thread, the thread title, and the name of the last replying member - but I understand this is being worked on.  Aside to some other ways of grouping/organizing the content, that's all I can think of in terms of improvements here.  So I'm in for the long haul, and hats off to those of you who are working to make this the place for Skyrim builds in the future!

    • 773 posts
    October 10, 2016 11:42 AM EDT

    Paul said:

    The question has been asked about the analytics, and I'll try to answer it.

    To keep things simple, here are the number of site visitors on the most recent Sundays (which happens to be the day when most people visit the site)

    Sept 24th   3340

    Sept 17th   3455

    Sept 10th   6046

    Sept 3rd     3414

    Aug 26th    3642

    Aug 19th    3319

    Aug 12th    3481

    Aug 5th      3297

     

    The September 10th spike was just after the site move and was part of a large spike in visitors in the 4-5 day period after the switch to Social Engine. Not sure why exactly this occured, but if you take that 4-5 days out the equation, you can see that site visitors (and the same trend is there for page views) show pretty much a flatline over the past two months.

    So, the lack of activity on the activity feed isn't tied to any kind of fall off in site visitors / page impressions etc.

     

    A little update on this - continuing with the Sunday site visitor figures from the post quoted

    October 2nd  3370

    October 9th  3628

     

    In general, whether I look at site visitors / site hits / different days etc, the overall trend is somewhere between steady and slightly upwards.

    • 15 posts
    October 10, 2016 11:37 PM EDT

    Todd said:

    Even if they could offer us a loyalty price, what would we do about the $1400+ spent building this site so far? All of that would essentially go down the drain unless someone else wanted to buy the licenses we have for our plugins. 

    You cannot look at your past moves to affect future decisions. You look at the situation you are in right now and do what is best for the future. The past is 100% irrelevant. That $1400 is gone now. Forget about it. What is best for the situation you have? Going forward, without thinking of the past, will Ning or SE be best?

    So what would you do about the money spent? Forget it.

    • 15 posts
    October 10, 2016 11:59 PM EDT

    Paul said:

    More analytics

    Since the move to Social Engine

    Users  43977

    Sessions  82199

    Page Views 474201

    Pages per session 5.77

     

    The bottom figure is particularly noteworthy - a website that engages its visitors to the tune of 5.77 pages per visit is doing remarkably well. I googled on what would be a decent ratio and the perceived view is that 'a quality site should be able to maintain a ration of between 2 and 4 pages per visit' (found this on Sitepoint). If that is the case, then we are doing much better than average at engaging our visitors.

    Why that isn't yet translating into the activity feed is something we need to answer...

    I have a theory as to why these numbers do not translate into activity. People have to click on 5 different links just to find something. To find the last reply on a large post you have to click on many links (unless there is an easy way to do it and I have not found it). Just going to the Skyrim Character Building group forces me through 4 pages (home page - group page - TES group page - Sykrim CB page). Now I want to find the helpdesk. How do I find it? Well I have no clue. There are no easy links to follow like the Ning group had. I have to click on another link for "view all topics" just to have a chance of finding the helpdesk. Then I have to go through page after page. Yes I know I can use the search feature but it is frustratingly difficult to navigate the site in general.

    There you have it. My theory on why there are a lot of pageviews and little activity. The site is a pain to navigate. You get near your average number of pageviews simply by having someone go to the group they are trying to find. Who wants to be active when it is just too difficult to do anything?

    • 694 posts
    October 11, 2016 9:30 AM EDT

    Hawkward said:

    . There are no easy links to follow like the Ning group had. I have to click on another link for "view all topics" just to have a chance of finding the helpdesk. Then I have to go through page after page. Yes I know I can use the search feature but it is frustratingly difficult to navigate the site in general.

    There you have it. My theory on why there are a lot of pageviews and little activity. The site is a pain to navigate. You get near your average number of pageviews simply by having someone go to the group they are trying to find. Who wants to be active when it is just too difficult to do anything?

    I hear you here, and this is a feature we want to roll out. We'd like to get those rich text boxes back on the main group page... on the backend it's a little more difficult; any changes made to a single rich text box for "Groups" are global, and not individually editable on a group by group basis. So if I put up a link to a help desk, that would appear on every single group page. So individually editable group main pages is a feature we're looking into though, as we'd very much like to have that function back. For now we have sticky threads and the fully functioning search bar. But I assure you, its something we'll be looking into shortly.

    • 558 posts
    October 22, 2016 11:50 AM EDT

    Why is the old site still up?

    • 649 posts
    October 22, 2016 12:18 PM EDT

    Steezy said:

    Why is the old site still up?

    Because the subscription hasn´t run off yet. 

    • 312 posts
    October 22, 2016 1:46 PM EDT

    Steezy said:

    Why is the old site still up?

    Well, the Taskforce isn't done salvaging all the builds yet, as far as I can tell, and I'd hate to lose all that hard work.

    • 140 posts
    October 23, 2016 7:30 AM EDT

    Why is the old site still up?

    Because Ning hasn't ceased to exist, like everyone "claims" will happen.

    • 627 posts
    October 23, 2016 7:34 AM EDT

    Caesar said:

    Why is the old site still up?

    Because Ning hasn't ceased to exist, like everyone "claims" will happen.

    Actually it's because the "subscription" that was payed hasn't run out yet :P

    • 312 posts
    October 23, 2016 9:00 AM EDT

    Caesar said:

    Because Ning hasn't ceased to exist, like everyone "claims" will happen.

    I don't know why you've put "claims" in quotes since you obviously think that we're saying "Ning will shut down absolutely." That's a harsh misinterpretation of our words. What we are "claiming" is that we don't know whether Ning is shutting down in the near future or not, and that uncertainty is more than enough to give us pause when it comes to returning to the old platform.