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Magic Systems

    • 312 posts
    September 19, 2016 10:07 PM EDT

    Hey, guys!

     

    I'm currently working on a book that I'd like to get published, and I wanted to give the magic system a "test run". Basically, I'm looking for feedback about the mechanics and ideas on how to improve it. Ideas on how it could be used would be cool, too.

     

    In this world, Magic is open to everyone. Every single person is born with the same amount of Mana (called "Spirit"). However, spellcasting's effects on the body are twofold:

     1.  Using Magic draws on the Spellcaster's stamina, so the more spells (or the more powerful) you cast, the quicker you tire, both mentally and physically.

     2.  Using Magic draws on the Spellcaster's "Timeline". Each person's Timeline is, in essence, his lifespan. The more spells you cast, the earlier you'll pass from the world.

     

    What does this mean? Well, Mages ("Spirit Callers") spend a large amount of their time in physical training. In a straight up brawl, most mages could take on a warrior with little issue. What they lack is the finesse due to the effort they spend in toning their endurance and mental fortitude. Additionally, there are very few of what we would consider Sages. Most Spirit Callers are extremely young due to the toll on the caster's Timeline. They simply do not live old enough. 

     

    Everyday use of magic is sparse since not eveybody is willing to shorten their lives for a little bit of convenience, and magical studies are almost unheard of. Most scholars follow the path of what are called "Theory Crafters". In essence, they theorize how magic would work, but they are unwilling to sacrifice their Timelines to test their conjectures. Those theories are called "Hypotheses", just like in the scientific community. A small number of scholars, however, take it upon themselves to test these Hypotheses, either out of curiosity or simply out of a desire to better understand how magic affects the body. These "Experimenters" are typically venerated as martyrs thanks to their large sacrifices. Again like science, the Hypotheses that work out are called "Theories", and the ones that don't get canned.

     

    So how about combat? Surely, there are battle mages and spellswords, right? Thanks to the immediate physical toll of spellcasting, the vast majority of battle mages and spellswords are either unarmored or lightly armored. After all, what good is heavy armor if you can't move after casting a single spell? Additionally, there is no natural limiter for the Spirit Callers' fatigue. Unlike most Fantasy settings, where a lack of Mana means that a spell simply cannot be cast, large spells can be cast even when a Spirit Caller is exhausted, but they will use up the remainder of the Spirit Caller's vitality, rendering them unable to move, speak, or in extreme cases, even breathe. Therefore, Spirit Callers must be doubly cautious when it comes to using their energy reserves.

     

    Like most settings, there are forbidden acts of magic, the greatest of which is to substitute someone else's Timeline for your own when casting a spell, an act commonly known as the "Time Stealing". This means that the majority of elderly spellcasters are distrusted and often ostracized. In addition to the implication of fueling your own spells with someone else's energy, there is another implication. A talented Time Stealer can drain another person of his life and frame the death as accidental Spirit Exhaustion. Naturally, there are ways to prevent or counteract a Time Steal, and these methods are used extensively by the rich and the powerful, notably monarchs and other blue-bloods.

     

    Anyway, that ended up being longer than I'd anticipated, but any feedback is greatly appreciated.

    YiXiang

    • 1467 posts
    September 19, 2016 11:58 PM EDT

    I gotta say this feels like a really cool system Yi, and I'm really interested in it. I've got a few questions here to hopefully either help you think about some stuff, or get me to ask some other questions later on. Dunno if they'll be helpful, but ah here they are. 

    1. What can Magic Do?

    This is a pretty quick question, but I suppose it's more what can't the Spirt Callers do? Most, most stories have some limitations on magic, things that just cannot actually be done using Magic, and that's what kind of sets the absolute level for any character, nobody will ever  be able to top this limit because it just isn't possible. I think this is really important limitation to create with a new world, it stops you from making characters that are too powerful you know. 

     2.How many people use Magic?

    I know that theoretically everyone can learn how to use magic, but how many people actually use it? Is it like Skyrim where it seems like the vast majority of people have at least some innate ability to use magic but rarely do, or do most people use it? Both have their merits in a system, with the first you can play around with the more legal/moral sides of magic and how other people react to it, but the second lets you play with just adding more of it, some people would obviously specialize at different things, and the more people are use magic, the more you can develop it. I'd guess that it depends on your preference there, but I think yours already kind of fits the option of just about everyone using it a little, it's rarer for magic to be accessible to everyone.

    3. Is morality related to Magic?

    I think the best exmple here for what I mean is the kind of...classic I suppose Light and Dark magic idea. In this universe, does magic have a specific alignment, is there magic that is inheritantly evil, or is it just magic? Either way, are there still people who believe that there is evil and good magic, and act accordingly, hunting down 'evil' Spirit Callers or vise-versa.

    • 312 posts
    September 20, 2016 3:42 AM EDT

    Excellent questions, Deebs! I shall endeavor to answer them to the fullest!

     

    1. What can Magic Do?

    Magic is simply the ability to manipulate energy. Kinetic, Electric, Thermal, Mechanical, and (if their society were advanced enough to understand it) even Nuclear energy are easily harnessed by Spirit Callers. The issue is that the more energy that gets manipulated, the more of the Caller's vitality and Timeline are consumed. Starting a Nuclear Fission reaction, while extremely potent, would instantly kill the caster. Naturally, they don't exactly know about Nuclei, so that's not happening any time soon. This system gives a lot of leeway. For example, removing Thermal Energy would create the element of Frost; adding Kinetic Energy would be Telekinesis; removing Electromagnetic Energy could result in illusions. Reducing Kinetic Energy could result in some impenetrable armor that would take its toll on the spellcaster in a different way, so it's not exactly the most practical. Possible, yes, but impractical.

    This also means that a few more common forms of magic, namely necromantic, summoning, and healing magic are near impossible to execute properly. At least without consuming vast amounts of energy. Of course, jump-starting someone's heart in the way of defibrillation is possible, as is cauterizing a wound, but does that really constitute "Healing Magic"?

     

    2.How many people use Magic?

    Due to the nature of the Timeline system, only a few people are willing to implement magic. However, the more fearless will often cast extremely minor spells to make everyday life a little easier. After all, what's a few hours off your life if it means you get a slightly warmer bath? Dedicated Spirit Callers are few and far between.

     

    3. Is morality related to Magic?

    On a fundamental level, Magic is simply Magic. Whether or not governments and other groups agree is a different story altogether. Naturally, there are Witch Hunters who hate all forms of magic and Paladins who promote certain uses of magic while avoiding others, but ultimately, it is the society that decides what is appropriate and what is not. Almost all groups agree that Time Stealing is an unspeakably evil act, but other actions are a bit more fuzzy.

     

    If I were to break down the essence of magic to its most fundamental explanation, it would be this:

    Magic is the ability to manipulate Physical Energy by spending a person's Life Energy.


    This post was edited by WuYiXiang at September 20, 2016 4:01 AM EDT
    • 585 posts
    September 20, 2016 4:19 AM EDT

    This looks really intriguing, Wu. All I've got to ask is how the Time Stealing works? For example, could some people theoretically live forever with this ability? And if so, are there any people who pursue this? It's not hard to imagine a noble keeping slaves in his dungeon that he drains life from to keep him going, or even a psychotic parent, who has kids only to steal their essence when they're born. So if, theoretically, someone does achieve this mock immortality, what are the reprocussions? Are they frail and weak, or does the magic give them youthful vigour, and is it possible to change appearances wih the magic so know one would know you're cheating death?

    So when I said one question, I actually meant loads, but I guess a lot of these can be answered together. This is a really interesting concept, and I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes.

    • 312 posts
    September 20, 2016 4:26 AM EDT
    Time Stealing is less taking someone's life force for your own and more substituting someone's life force as the offering when Spirit Calling. It cannot be used to extend someone's life, though it does allow a Spirit Caller to cast spells without fear of the repercussions. There is no physical difference between a Time Stealer and an average Spirit Caller, so hunting down a Time Stealer is far from easy.

    Some of the more ambitious Experimentors might use Time Stealing in order to test more hypotheses without risk to themselves. Kind of how a Mad Scientist does experiments without regard for others' lives.

    When it comes to having children specifically for Time Stealing, it is not entirely unheard of. Many have been accused, though nobody has been convicted of such an atrocity.
    • 585 posts
    September 20, 2016 4:54 AM EDT

    WuYiXiang said: Time Stealing is less taking someone's life force for your own and more substituting someone's life force as the offering when Spirit Calling. It cannot be used to extend someone's life, though it does allow a Spirit Caller to cast spells without fear of the repercussions. There is no physical difference between a Time Stealer and an average Spirit Caller, so hunting down a Time Stealer is far from easy. Some of the more ambitious Experimentors might use Time Stealing in order to test more hypotheses without risk to themselves. Kind of how a Mad Scientist does experiments without regard for others' lives. When it comes to having children specifically for Time Stealing, it is not entirely unheard of. Many have been accused, though nobody has been convicted of such an atrocity.

    This I like. Having a morally amibguous (though largely considered bad) magic in the world opens up all kinds of doors, are they heroes or villains? etc. Casting without reprocussions is also a nice idea, but what are the limits to Time Stealing? If you were in a batle with someone, could you use their lifeforce to fuel your spells against them, also possibly taking their magical ability out of the fight? Because if so, Time Stealing is without a doubt ridiculously powerful.

    So basically, what preperations are needed to Tme Steal? If it's a ritual or trance thing it would be interesting but have little combat use, while using it to fuel your fireball, like Equilibrium in Skyrim but effecting anothe person, would be world shattering.

    • 312 posts
    September 20, 2016 5:14 AM EDT
    Unfortunately, Time Stealing is not viable in combat environments because of the preparation it entails. First, you must enter a trance-like state in order to identify and locate the Timeline he intends to substitute. Then, you have to bypass the Timeline's "Guardian Spirit", which is comparable to an encrypted password. Only then is it possible to substitute a person's Timeline for your own. After that, it's as simple as swapping out a battery- if batteries powered human lives.

    Time Stealing is therefore only viable in low-stress environments. The two most common users of Time Steal are Assassins and Experimenters. The former could either use it to simulate a Spirit Call gone awry or fuel Illusions and other deceptions. The latter simply use it to experiment without having to worry about expending their own Timelines.

    More "merciful" Time Stealers may only use part of their targets' Timelines while others have no qualms about expending the entirity of their targets' lifespans.

    It is rumored that Time Stealers take in some of the attributes of their victims due to the intimate nature of the Timelines, but this has never been confirmed. Of course, it has never been disproved, either.
    • 1467 posts
    September 20, 2016 6:37 AM EDT

    Interesting... Well I definitely like the application, seems very logical which is something that most magic series seem to give up, instead just saying because Magic like so many other series seem to do.

    1. What can Magic Do?

    I'm assuming things like area of effect, natural reactions (using Thermal Energy to burn stone would be harder than using it to boil water), time all effect how difficult it is to cast a spell, but there are a few teeny little things similar to that that I'm interested in it . How great do distance, line of sight and visbility effect how difficult it is to use magic? If I wanted to create a light, would I need to be able to see the place I'm trying to create light in order for it to work, would the cost be different if I was summoning that light 10 feet away as opposed to 20? Would I be able to use magic to alter something that I can't directly see (my bones for example?). 

    I'm really interested in the idea of combining energies, would that be easier or harder than using a single type for a goal (I can't think of any examples for this right now, but do you get what I mean kind of?). 

     

    • 585 posts
    September 20, 2016 7:14 AM EDT

    Nice, I really like the idea of Time Stealing, it's a really striking feature and has loads of applications. You've exhausted me of questions, and I'm now very much looking forward to seeing where this goes.

    • 203 posts
    September 20, 2016 8:16 AM EDT

    I'll be honest, this all looks very intrigueing. It looks like you definitively worked on it quite a bit. The idea of using the casters lifeforce to cast spells isn't entirely unheard of but the concept of using someone else's time to do so is quite interesting. Timestealing and the morality you have build around it is pretty neat.

    Furthermore, your magic system is nice, the mechanics seem to be simple and to the point so far which is not a bad thing. You should be able to quite easily explain anything magic related, which is a great asset for the writer, and makes magic feel a lot less like an ex-machina which is great for the readers.

    I do have a few questions though:

    1. Where does magic come from? Is it biological or does it have a divine source for example (TES would be a variant on the latter)? And more importantly, where do the basic plebians think it comes from?
    2. You mentioned Time stealing needs a stress free environment to be properly conducted, however as you probably know everyone has a different way of coping with stress and in our universe people can be trained to focus regartdless of stress even if it was previously crippling, my question is whether something similar could apply to Timestealing, could one theoretically train to perform it under high stress, such as a combat situation?
    3. The next question is somewhat related to the first, you mentioned Paladin-like entities most likely exist, does this mean there is a form of organized religion and how closely would it be related to magic use?

    Between you doing this, and I believe Mortiferous brainstorming for his own little universe before the site move, you're starting to convince me to share some of the inner workings of my own original. See how it fares and if it holds up to scrutiny.


    This post was edited by Teineeva at September 20, 2016 8:58 AM EDT
    • 96 posts
    September 20, 2016 12:11 PM EDT
    How does the manipulation of let's say a stone work? Is it the spirit of the caster reaching out to the object? If so, does distance matter? Be it, does it increase the amount of energy needed?

    What about 'saving' spells/energy in scrolls or other objects for later use? This could make combat easier and could work for Time Stealers storing the stolen time/energy & maybe even selling it.

    How much time is drained when someone is using a spell and 'when' is it drained? You basically say the more complex = the more energy needed but wouldn't (stamina aside) even the 'attempt' of building a city from 0 to 100 just instantly kill you? Or is energy spent 'after' casting the spell?
    This post was edited by Relycs at September 20, 2016 12:12 PM EDT
    • 312 posts
    September 20, 2016 1:25 PM EDT

    Even more brilliant questions, guys! Thanks so much!

     

    Dragonborn1721 said:

    1. What can Magic Do?

    I'm assuming things like area of effect, natural reactions (using Thermal Energy to burn stone would be harder than using it to boil water), time all effect how difficult it is to cast a spell, but there are a few teeny little things similar to that that I'm interested in it . How great do distance, line of sight and visbility effect how difficult it is to use magic? If I wanted to create a light, would I need to be able to see the place I'm trying to create light in order for it to work, would the cost be different if I was summoning that light 10 feet away as opposed to 20? Would I be able to use magic to alter something that I can't directly see (my bones for example?). 

    I'm really interested in the idea of combining energies, would that be easier or harder than using a single type for a goal (I can't think of any examples for this right now, but do you get what I mean kind of?). 

    The longer the distance between the Spirit Caller and the target of the spell, the more physically exhausting it is. A longer distance does not, however, increase the effect on the Caller's Timeline.

    Most novice Spirit Callers rely on Line of Sight and Visibility to accurately place their spells, but more experienced Callers are able to "guesstimate" where to insert or remove energy. Experienced Callers are rare, though, so it's mainly Time Stealers who have that ability.

    I think I know what you mean about combining energies, but I can't think of any way to apply it right now, so I'll hold off answering that. :P

    Edit:  Would an example, perhaps, be similar to that of a flashbang, which combines light energy and sound (kinetic) energy in order to blind and deafen the people in the area?

     

    Teineeva said:

    I'll be honest, this all looks very intrigueing. It looks like you definitively worked on it quite a bit. The idea of using the casters lifeforce to cast spells isn't entirely unheard of but the concept of using someone else's time to do so is quite interesting. Timestealing and the morality you have build around it is pretty neat.

    Furthermore, your magic system is nice, the mechanics seem to be simple and to the point so far which is not a bad thing. You should be able to quite easily explain anything magic related, which is a great asset for the writer, and makes magic feel a lot less like an ex-machina which is great for the readers.

    I do have a few questions though:

    1. Where does magic come from? Is it biological or does it have a divine source for example (TES would be a variant on the latter)? And more importantly, where do the basic plebians think it comes from?
    2. You mentioned Time stealing needs a stress free environment to be properly conducted, however as you probably know everyone has a different way of coping with stress and in our universe people can be trained to focus regartdless of stress even if it was previously crippling, my question is whether something similar could apply to Timestealing, could one theoretically train to perform it under high stress, such as a combat situation?
    3. The next question is somewhat related to the first, you mentioned Paladin-like entities most likely exist, does this mean there is a form of organized religion and how closely would it be related to magic use?

    Between you doing this, and I believe Mortiferous brainstorming for his own little universe before the site move, you're starting to convince me to share some of the inner workings of my own original. See how it fares and if it holds up to scrutiny.

    1.  In this world, magic is biological. There are several schools of thought as to why it exists. Certainly, some religions believe that magic is divine and should be revered. Others believe that magic is the work of some evil deity. And there's also the camp that believe that magic just is. It exists just like a tree or a rock exists.

    2.  Yes, indeed. If someone had enough time and practice, he or she could theoretcially perform it under high stress situations.

    3.  There are a few forms of organized religion. The first believes that magic is sacred and any who would abuse its systems should be destroyed (See:  Paladins). A second group hates all magic in general (See:  Witch Hunters). Other minor factions exist, but those are the two extremes.

     

    Relycs said:

    How does the manipulation of let's say a stone work? Is it the spirit of the caster reaching out to the object? If so, does distance matter? Be it, does it increase the amount of energy needed? What about 'saving' spells/energy in scrolls or other objects for later use? This could make combat easier and could work for Time Stealers storing the stolen time/energy & maybe even selling it. How much time is drained when someone is using a spell and 'when' is it drained? You basically say the more complex = the more energy needed but wouldn't (stamina aside) even the 'attempt' of building a city from 0 to 100 just instantly kill you? Or is energy spent 'after' casting the spell?

    Okay. Let's take the example of Stone Manipulation. There are two schools of thought on how it works.

    The first group think of Spirit Calling as an extension of the Caller's spirit, that a person is, in essence, using part of his spirit to perform this action, thereby explaining the instant and long-term costs of casting a spell.

    The second believe that Spirit Calling is more physical, that a person is manipulating his own energy in order to affect the outside world.

    Like I said earlier in this post in response to DB, distance does, indeed, matter. It affects the instant cost of Spirit Calling, but it has no effect on the long-term Timeline cost.

    Many people have attempted to store energy, though nobody has succeeded. Currently, a group of Theory Crafters and Experimenters are working together to come up with a logical explanation and, possibly, a workaround.

    Energy is spent while a spell is cast. If building a city from the ground up, the Spirit Caller would die at the point when the Kinetic Energy exceeded his own capacity, leaving a half-built city in its place.

     

    I wanted to take a bit of time to address this as well:

    It is rumored that Time Stealers take in some of the attributes of their victims due to the intimate nature of the Timelines, but this has never been confirmed. Of course, it has never been disproved, either.

    While storing energy in the way Relycs said is not yet possible, many Kings have attempted to prolong their lives by having someone perform Time Stealing on them. If you've played Fallout 4, you can think of it kind of like your first conversation with Nick Valentine after the Memory Den.


    This post was edited by WuYiXiang at September 20, 2016 1:29 PM EDT
    • 96 posts
    September 20, 2016 1:35 PM EDT
    Well that's very interesting.
    Does magic have anything to do with 'destiny'? Do things like fate or luck 'naturally' exist in this world and if so, do they affect magic or vice versa? Because 'having' a destiny could interefere with a timeline that is used for magic.
    This post was edited by Relycs at September 20, 2016 1:38 PM EDT
    • 312 posts
    September 20, 2016 1:36 PM EDT

    Relycs said:

    Well that's very interesting. Does magic have anything to do with 'destiny'? Do things like fate or luck 'naturally' exist in this world and if so, do they affect magic or vice versa?

    Ah, "destiny". Sure, there are people who think that Timelines are similar to Fate, but the concepts of Fate and Luck don't manifest the same way as they might in others ettings.