Forums » Elder Scrolls

Stormcloaks vs Imperials

    • 743 posts
    September 16, 2016 11:35 AM EDT

    Time to bring back my favorite argument ever for a video game. The classic Skyrim Civil War debate! Let's just start with my obvious stance, the Stormcloaks are the best hope for Skyrim's safety against the Thalmor Nazis. The Imperial Milk drinkers are simply too weak to deal with them, after all, just look at what happened during the Great War. And guess what happens AFTER said war? The infamous White Gold Concordant that everyone loves debating about. Let's review what this magnificent document has in store for the almighty Empire!

    The White-Gold Concordat was a treaty signed in 4E 175 between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion that ended the Great War. The conditions of the treaty outlawed the worship ofTalos in the Empire, formally disbanded the Blades, and delivered a large portion of southern Hammerfell into the control of the Aldmeri Dominion. Emperor Titus Mede II made these concessions to the Thalmor hierarchy in order to give the Imperial Legion time to recover its strength, as it had been decimated in the Battle of the Red Ring.

    -UESP Wiki

    Here we have the fall of a once great empire. The coward that the imperials refer to as Emporer, has just sold out Hammerfell. Were it not for them leaving the Empire, they would be currently occupied by the Dominion. Why should we trust an Empire that sells out their own people? Next, on the list, the outlaw of Talos worshipping. You've seriously gotta be kidding me on this one. The outlaw of Talos worship is blatant discrimination to the entire Nord race. Now, obviously, the Aldmeri Dominion knew that this would result in internal chaos, and that is why the Empire is totally idiotic to have signed such a piece of garbage. The day the Empire signed the White-Gold Concordant is the day it died.

    An argument most imperial supporters like to bring up is, "How will the Stormcloaks defend against the Aldmeri Dominion?". For the people who ask this terribly naive question, I simply respond, "Hammerfell seems to be doing quite well on their own". The redguards have been holding their own for quite a while now, and the Thalmor is getting nowhere close to defeating them. But Hammerfell hasn't gone through an entire civil war, have they? That's very true, but I propose we observe how the Stormcloaks would do battle against the elves, and how an invasion of the Aldmeri Dominion would work out, (hint, it doesn't end well for the nazis.).

    Take a look at this map

    Image result for tamriel

    See where Skyrim is? Great, now see where the Summerset Isles are located? Excellent. Now, let's make a scenario. The Stormcloaks have just won their independence, and the Aldmeri Dominion is going to strike while Skyrim is still recovering. Sounds like a good tactic, eh? No, not at all. Let's say that the Thalmor sail ships past Hammerfell set for Skyrim. You know what's gonna happen as soon as a boat passes by the Hammerfell coast? It's gonna get sunken into the depths of oblivion. But let's just say the entire fleets goes out of its way to miss Hammerfell by going further west. That's great, their fleet is still untouched. Now they've made it to Skyrim. There're only 3 suitable ports in this province. Solitude, Dawnstar, and Windhelm. Guess what's gonna be stationed at each port? Stormcloaks. Lots of Stormcloaks. Ready to spill elven blood. The elves are going to be under constant pressure as soon as they reach land. Also, Solitude is the only port with fair weather. The rest are a freezing mess that the elves would be totally shocked by versus their nice and warm Summerset Isles. It would be an absolute clusterfuck for them. 

    Let's say the Dominion finally take the ports. They're now ready to take Whiterun for central control. Now keep in mind, the Stormcloaks are known to utilize guerilla warfare tactics. Guess what's gonna be accompanying the Thalmor on their way to Whiterun? Ambushes. Lots of Ambushes. The Elves finally reach Whiterun, only to see that the entire city has been burned to the grounds and  the resources taken up by the Cloaks. The Thalmor keep pushing down south, with no little to no rations, extremely alien weather, and a god-awful morale status. And you know what's going to be waiting at the fair weathered Riften? The Stormcloaks. The entire remains of the army. It'll be a stand of fully fed and high morale Nords against the sorry excuse for an army Dominion. Checkmate, Skyrim has won.

    Now, what if the Thalmor go through Cyyrodil instead? The White Gold concordant does not state that the elves can simply march an entire invasion force through Cyyrodil. And as cowardly as the Empire is, there's no way in hell they'll stand by as a threat as great as an invasion army walks across their lawn. There would be a second great war as a result of this. And the cloaks, along with the redguards, would probably assist the Empire in such a scenario.

    The answer is simple, Skyrim belongs to the Stormcloaks.


    This post was edited by Rogue at September 19, 2016 10:02 AM EDT
    • 743 posts
    September 19, 2016 9:53 AM EDT

    Where's all the angry Imperials? 

    • 312 posts
    September 19, 2016 9:54 AM EDT

    I'm more angry that the map is unreadably pixelated.

    • 743 posts
    September 19, 2016 9:56 AM EDT

    WuYiXiang said:

    I'm more angry that the map is unreadably pixelated.

    Probably because you're on mobile. The Vault is god-awful on any sort of phone or tablet.

    • 312 posts
    September 19, 2016 9:57 AM EDT

    RogueSilver said:

    Probably because you're on mobile. The Vault is god-awful on any sort of phone or tablet.

    I'm actually on my desktop with a 1920x1080 monitor. Try again. :D

    • 743 posts
    September 19, 2016 9:58 AM EDT

    WuYiXiang said:

    RogueSilver said:

    Probably because you're on mobile. The Vault is god-awful on any sort of phone or tablet.

    I'm actually on my desktop with a 1920x1080 monitor. Try again. :D

    Looks totally fine on my monitor.

    • 312 posts
    September 19, 2016 9:58 AM EDT

    Yeah, I can't see crap.

    • 743 posts
    September 19, 2016 10:00 AM EDT

    WuYiXiang said:

    Yeah, I can't see crap.

    Just made it smaller. Look better now?

    • 312 posts
    September 19, 2016 10:01 AM EDT

    RogueSilver said:

    Just made it smaller. Look better now?

    Nope, unfortunately. :/ Dunno why it's doing that.

    • 743 posts
    September 19, 2016 10:01 AM EDT

    WuYiXiang said:

    RogueSilver said:

    Just made it smaller. Look better now?

    Nope, unfortunately. :/ Dunno why it's doing that.

    That's odd.

    • 113 posts
    September 19, 2016 10:38 AM EDT
    Well, I'm confused even now about both sides. Empire surrendered to the Aldmeri to avoid a war, it would be costly but they would win surely. It was very cowardly of them. And not to forget the corruption within it's ranks (I'm looking at you imperial captain from the prologue). Stormcloak soldiers have good intentions, but they're fooled by Ulfric. The nords are very patriotic and easily swayed when Ulfric says "You're not a true nord if you don't fight for me! Boooooooo!!" And Ulfric even just straight up murdered Torygg when he could've negotiatied, but nah a true son of skyrim does not engage in petty diplomacy. Why? Because Ulfric is mad for power, he just wants himself remembered in the glorious position of the high king.
    • 113 posts
    September 19, 2016 10:42 AM EDT
    Also, I fully support a independent Skyrim, just not an arrogant and racist one.
    • 15 posts
    September 19, 2016 10:57 AM EDT

    Sindeed said: Also, I fully support a independent Skyrim, just not an arrogant and racist one.

    Why do you say that? When did Nords say anythign racist? The Nord homeland should be for the Nords. The Altmer homeland should be for the Altmer. What racism exists in Skyrim?

    • 136 posts
    September 19, 2016 11:10 AM EDT

    Sindeed said: Also, I fully support a independent Skyrim, just not an arrogant and racist one.

    No offense, but the racism argument is hollow in a TES universe. Using real world definitions and charaterizations, EVERY race in Tamriel is racist to some degree. Arguing that Skyrim should be governed by Nords is not racist--it's a form of nationalism and protectionism. No one, at any time, claimed that Skyrim was to be governed plurialistically. Further, although the Empire claims to be egalitarian, some overheard conversations in Oblivion and ESO demonstrate that Imperials believe that the Empire should be ruled only by Imperials.

    Skyrim is the first game in TES that made me question my support of the Empire. For the record, I'm not saying I don't support the Empire--I'll leave that unsaid (like who I'm voting for in the American election in November. lol). 


    This post was edited by The_Lex at September 19, 2016 11:12 AM EDT
    • 743 posts
    September 19, 2016 11:12 AM EDT

    Sindeed said: Well, I'm confused even now about both sides. Empire surrendered to the Aldmeri to avoid a war, it would be costly but they would win surely. It was very cowardly of them. And not to forget the corruption within it's ranks (I'm looking at you imperial captain from the prologue). Stormcloak soldiers have good intentions, but they're fooled by Ulfric. The nords are very patriotic and easily swayed when Ulfric says "You're not a true nord if you don't fight for me! Boooooooo!!" And Ulfric even just straight up murdered Torygg when he could've negotiatied, but nah a true son of skyrim does not engage in petty diplomacy. Why? Because Ulfric is mad for power, he just wants himself remembered in the glorious position of the high king.

    Ulfric is not by any means power hungry. When I heard his speech to Galmar upon entering Windhelm's keep for the first time, I heard a leader that meant every word he produced. Imperials confuse power hunger with ambition too easily. A leader need ambition.

    Also, how is it the Cloaks are racist?

    • 743 posts
    September 19, 2016 11:13 AM EDT

    Patriarch said:

    Sindeed said: Also, I fully support a independent Skyrim, just not an arrogant and racist one.

    No offense, but the racism argument is hollow in a TES universe. Using real world definitions and charaterizations, EVERY race in Tamriel is racist to some degree. Arguing that Skyrim should be governed by Nords is not racist--it's a form of nationalism and protectionism. No one, at any time, claimed that Skyrim was to be governed plurialistically. Further, although the Empire claims to be egalitarian, some overheard conversations in Oblivion and ESO demonstrate that Imperials believe that the Empire should be ruled only by Imperials.

    Skyrim is the first game in TES that made me question my support of the Empire. For the record, I'm not saying I don't support the Empire--I'll leave that unsaid (like who I'm voting for in the American election in November. lol). 

    Join us, Pat. You know you want to.

    • 136 posts
    September 19, 2016 11:15 AM EDT

    RogueSilver said:

    Patriarch said:

    Sindeed said: Also, I fully support a independent Skyrim, just not an arrogant and racist one.

    No offense, but the racism argument is hollow in a TES universe. Using real world definitions and charaterizations, EVERY race in Tamriel is racist to some degree. Arguing that Skyrim should be governed by Nords is not racist--it's a form of nationalism and protectionism. No one, at any time, claimed that Skyrim was to be governed plurialistically. Further, although the Empire claims to be egalitarian, some overheard conversations in Oblivion and ESO demonstrate that Imperials believe that the Empire should be ruled only by Imperials.

    Skyrim is the first game in TES that made me question my support of the Empire. For the record, I'm not saying I don't support the Empire--I'll leave that unsaid (like who I'm voting for in the American election in November. lol). 

    Join us, Pat. You know you want to.

     

    Haha. I fully support the Septim Empire. Maybe that statement sheds too much light on how I feel. 

    • 743 posts
    September 19, 2016 11:18 AM EDT

    Patriarch said:

    RogueSilver said:

    Patriarch said:

    Sindeed said: Also, I fully support a independent Skyrim, just not an arrogant and racist one.

    No offense, but the racism argument is hollow in a TES universe. Using real world definitions and charaterizations, EVERY race in Tamriel is racist to some degree. Arguing that Skyrim should be governed by Nords is not racist--it's a form of nationalism and protectionism. No one, at any time, claimed that Skyrim was to be governed plurialistically. Further, although the Empire claims to be egalitarian, some overheard conversations in Oblivion and ESO demonstrate that Imperials believe that the Empire should be ruled only by Imperials.

    Skyrim is the first game in TES that made me question my support of the Empire. For the record, I'm not saying I don't support the Empire--I'll leave that unsaid (like who I'm voting for in the American election in November. lol). 

    That's what we support as well. Too bad it died with the Septims.

    Join us, Pat. You know you want to.

     

    Haha. I fully support the Septim Empire. Maybe that statement sheds too much light on how I feel. 

    • 113 posts
    September 19, 2016 11:20 AM EDT
    "Greyskins" "Scalebacks". Check around Windhelm, Ulfric does nothing for the refugees.
    • 743 posts
    September 19, 2016 11:21 AM EDT

    Sindeed said: "Greyskins" "Scalebacks". Check around Windhelm, Ulfric does nothing for the refugees.

    Knew this argument would be presented. Why should Ulfric help them? He does have a war going on, after all.

    • 136 posts
    September 19, 2016 11:23 AM EDT

    RogueSilver said:

    Patriarch said:

     

    Haha. I fully support the Septim Empire. Maybe that statement sheds too much light on how I feel. 

     

    RogueSilver said:

    That's what we support as well. Too bad it died with the Septims.

     

    Agreed. 

     

     

    • 743 posts
    September 19, 2016 11:24 AM EDT

    Patriarch said:

    RogueSilver said:

    Patriarch said:

     

    Haha. I fully support the Septim Empire. Maybe that statement sheds too much light on how I feel. 

     

    RogueSilver said:

    That's what we support as well. Too bad it died with the Septims.

    Ah, so you are a Stormcloak.

     

    Agreed. 

     

     

    • 136 posts
    September 19, 2016 11:30 AM EDT

    RogueSilver said:

    Sindeed said: "Greyskins" "Scalebacks". Check around Windhelm, Ulfric does nothing for the refugees.

    Knew this argument would be presented. Why should Ulfric help them? He does have a war going on, after all.

    That does not automagically make Ulfric a racist. It might make him a bad Jarl, but not necessarily a racist. If he were a true racist in a time of war, he would have rounded up the foreigners and put them in internment camps. Unbelievably, the U.S. did that to Japanese-America citizens in WWII. By contrast, Altmer openly run their own businesses in Windhelm. Speaking of WWII, look at the sacrifices that Americans were expected to make during the war. Most civil services came to a grinding halt and citizens were expected to ration their own food and supplies for the sake of the war effort. Why? All available resources were needed to prosecute the war. The same goes for Skyrim. Further, Ulfric could have drafted everyone into his army and used the non-Nord as cannon fodder. He didn't did he? 

    • 743 posts
    September 19, 2016 11:31 AM EDT

    Patriarch said:

    RogueSilver said:

    Sindeed said: "Greyskins" "Scalebacks". Check around Windhelm, Ulfric does nothing for the refugees.

    Knew this argument would be presented. Why should Ulfric help them? He does have a war going on, after all.

    That does not automagically make Ulfric a racist. It might make him a bad Jarl, but not necessarily a racist. If he were a true racist in a time of war, he would have rounded up the foreigners and put them in internment camps. Unbelievably, the U.S. did that to Japanese-America citizens in WWII. By contrast, Altmer openly run their own businesses in Windhelm. Speaking of WWII, look at the sacrifices that Americans were expected to make during the war. Most civil services came to a grinding halt and citizens were expected to ration their own food and supplies for the sake of the war effort. Why? All available resources were needed to prosecute the war. The same goes for Skyrim. Further, Ulfric could have drafted everyone into his army and used the non-Nord as cannon fodder. He didn't did he? 

    Very good points, Patriarch. 

    • 136 posts
    September 19, 2016 11:37 AM EDT

    RogueSilver said:

    Ah, so you are a Stormcloak.

    I didn't say that. :P

    I could be playing devil's advocate. lol