Forums » Elder Scrolls

Stormcloaks vs Imperials

    • 312 posts
    September 20, 2016 1:35 PM EDT

    RogueSilver said:

    I've never spoken to anyone who has disliked to Cloaks due to sexism. It's obviously not a thing in their culture, just look at the Jarl of Riften ( a very powerful position, mind you) that supports the rebellion.

    The Laila Law-Giver was most likely Jarl before the Rebellion, so unless Ulfric wanted to remove one of his supporters from a position of power (which would be very stupid, by the way), she likely would have kept her position anyway.

    • 743 posts
    September 20, 2016 1:40 PM EDT

    WuYiXiang said:

    RogueSilver said:

    I've never spoken to anyone who has disliked to Cloaks due to sexism. It's obviously not a thing in their culture, just look at the Jarl of Riften ( a very powerful position, mind you) that supports the rebellion.

    The Laila Law-Giver was most likely Jarl before the Rebellion, so unless Ulfric wanted to remove one of his supporters from a position of power (which would be very stupid, by the way), she likely would have kept her position anyway.

    If the 'cloaks are so sexist, why didn't Laila just join the Imperials? Riften is close to Cyyrodil, after all. Reinforcements could've easily been brought to her aid.

    • 743 posts
    September 20, 2016 1:41 PM EDT

    Patriarch said:

    Medieval said:

    Hello!

    This post touch my hearth, as all topics related to war and battles

    So here is a little gift for everyone who enjoy this kind of stuff!!

    For anyone who wish to have a full Real time strategy game totally based on Elder Scrolls, quality made, fully lore-friendly, your dreams have come true

     

    Its needed Total War II game

     

    The mod: The Elder Scrolls Total War

    http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-elder-scrolls-total-war/images

     

    The game is so so so so extremely cool, one can play for hours, you will be hungry for battles and conquer, even learn how to create special tacticts what totally worths

     

    Medieval

     

    Oooor, you could play ESO, join a guild and do this very thing. Our guild strategizes attack patterns, create distractions for other guilds, and advance on the map of Cyrodiil. Plus, you play against real players - so every fight is unpredictable, forcing you to communicate with your team and adapt to changing circumstances.

    Just my $.02

    I second this

    • 136 posts
    September 20, 2016 1:53 PM EDT

    RogueSilver said:

    Patriarch said:

    Medieval said:

    Hello!

    This post touch my hearth, as all topics related to war and battles

    So here is a little gift for everyone who enjoy this kind of stuff!!

    For anyone who wish to have a full Real time strategy game totally based on Elder Scrolls, quality made, fully lore-friendly, your dreams have come true

     

    Its needed Total War II game

     

    The mod: The Elder Scrolls Total War

    http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-elder-scrolls-total-war/images

     

    The game is so so so so extremely cool, one can play for hours, you will be hungry for battles and conquer, even learn how to create special tacticts what totally worths

     

    Medieval

     

    Oooor, you could play ESO, join a guild and do this very thing. Our guild strategizes attack patterns, create distractions for other guilds, and advance on the map of Cyrodiil. Plus, you play against real players - so every fight is unpredictable, forcing you to communicate with your team and adapt to changing circumstances.

    Just my $.02

    I second this

    Of course, you could always go solo and gank every enemy scrub you see. hahaha. 

    Ok, back on topic now...

    • 743 posts
    September 20, 2016 2:02 PM EDT

    Patriarch said:

    RogueSilver said:

    Patriarch said:

    Medieval said:

    Hello!

    This post touch my hearth, as all topics related to war and battles

    So here is a little gift for everyone who enjoy this kind of stuff!!

    For anyone who wish to have a full Real time strategy game totally based on Elder Scrolls, quality made, fully lore-friendly, your dreams have come true

     

    Its needed Total War II game

     

    The mod: The Elder Scrolls Total War

    http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-elder-scrolls-total-war/images

     

    The game is so so so so extremely cool, one can play for hours, you will be hungry for battles and conquer, even learn how to create special tacticts what totally worths

     

    Medieval

     

    Oooor, you could play ESO, join a guild and do this very thing. Our guild strategizes attack patterns, create distractions for other guilds, and advance on the map of Cyrodiil. Plus, you play against real players - so every fight is unpredictable, forcing you to communicate with your team and adapt to changing circumstances.

    Just my $.02

    I second this

    Of course, you could always go solo and gank every enemy scrub you see. hahaha. 

    Ok, back on topic now...

    My new username shall now be "RogueSolo"

    • 168 posts
    September 20, 2016 2:24 PM EDT

    Stormcloaks are the best hope for Skyrim's safety against the Thalmor Nazis.

    You're discounting the fact Ulfric himself says the Stormcloaks cannot fight the entire Empire in an open invasion. Should you attempt to attack Solitude while the Dark Brotherhood quest "Bound Until Death" is active, you're met with this direct quote from Ulfric: "We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's cousin is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire. So we'll bide our time for now." If he admits he couldn't face a full invasion from the Empire, what real chance does he have against the Dominion (who I might also add, includes forces from Summerset Isle, Valenwood and Elsweyr)? This is Ulfric, in-game saying he could not take on Imperial forces alone. This is FACT.

    Here we have the fall of a once great empire. The coward that the imperials refer to as Emporer, has just sold out Hammerfell. Were it not for them leaving the Empire, they would be currently occupied by the Dominion. Why should we trust an Empire that sells out their own people?

    Hammerfell does not despise the Empire, they seceded as they could not accept the terms of the Concordat.

    The outlaw of Talos worship is blatant discrimination to the entire Nord race. Now, obviously, the Aldmeri Dominion knew that this would result in internal chaos, and that is why the Empire is totally idiotic to have signed such a piece of garbage. The day the Empire signed the White-Gold Concordant is the day it died.

    When you lose a war and sign a treaty, you have no say in the terms of that treaty, your only option is to obey. To give you a real world example, "The Treaty of Versailles" That Germany signed at the end of WWI. Germany had to accept blame, pay reparations, they were forbidden to have submarines or an air force, could only have an army of 100,000 and lost territories. NOW lets apply this to the White-Gold Concordat, which forced the Empire to pay reparations, lose territories, disband the Blades and banned the worship of Talos. Do you see a pattern? Do you understand that when it was signed they HAD to follow through with the terms? Terms they originally rejected when faced with the Ultimatum that started the Great War. The Empire is lucky the Dominion didn't "alter the deal" as it were.

    The redguards have been holding their own for quite a while now, and the Thalmor is getting nowhere close to defeating them. But Hammerfell hasn't gone through an entire civil war, have they? That's very true, but I propose we observe how the Stormcloaks would do battle against the elves, and how an invasion of the Aldmeri Dominion would work out, (hint, it doesn't end well for the nazis.).

    If Hammerfell was some shiny example that the Stormcloaks can defeat the Dominion, then the Empire would have won the Great War in the first place. The only reason that Hammerfell won against the Dominion was because the bulk/main forces of the Dominion were in Cyrodiil fighting, the Empire left Elite troops in Hammerfell prior to signing, the Redguards put their civil war on hold and fought together and the Redguards knew the land better. It wasn't some grand victory that proved one small nation could easily defeat the Dominion, if it were that easy, Hammerfell could have just kept going and fought the elves all the way back to the Summerset Isle, instead of signing their own peace treaty. People blindly assume that just because Hammerfell won 1 victory that somehow means the Dominion can be easily defeated. "Hammerfell did it, so can Skyrim!" isn’t a valid argument without seeing the bigger picture.

    See where Skyrim is? Great, now see where the Summerset Isles are located? Excellent. Now, let's make a scenario. The Stormcloaks have just won their independence, and the Aldmeri Dominion is going to strike while Skyrim is still recovering. Sounds like a good tactic, eh? No, not at all. Let's say that the Thalmor sail ships past Hammerfell set for Skyrim. You know what's gonna happen as soon as a boat passes by the Hammerfell coast? It's gonna get sunken into the depths of oblivion. But let's just say the entire fleets goes out of its way to miss Hammerfell by going further west. That's great, their fleet is still untouched. Now they've made it to Skyrim. There're only 3 suitable ports in this province. Solitude, Dawnstar, and Windhelm. Guess what's gonna be stationed at each port? Stormcloaks. Lots of Stormcloaks. Ready to spill elven blood. The elves are going to be under constant pressure as soon as they reach land. Also, Solitude is the only port with fair weather. The rest are a freezing mess that the elves would be totally shocked by versus their nice and warm Summerset Isles. It would be an absolute clusterfuck for them.

    The Dominion could easily use Cyrodiil as a jumping point into Skyrim. The Empire, weakened from a civil war with Skyrim, is in no posistion to tell them "no", ON TOP of the fact they could feel bitter towards losing the providence AND possibly losing their Emperor to Skyrim if the Dark brotherhood questline was completed in your playthrough. Also Skyrim is a much better place to wage war in than Hammerfell. There's an abundance of forests, providing an ample amount of wood for any army. There's fresh water literally everywhere. The forests teem with game and animal life, making living off the land much easier. Armies can avoid the cold by adequately insulating their armor. There's no way to avoid the heat without losing a lot of the protection your armor provides. In Hammerfell, fresh water is practically worth its weight in gold, animals are practically nowhere to be found in the barren deserts, and metal armor acts as a furnace which cooks anybody inside.

    Let's say the Dominion finally take the ports. They're now ready to take Whiterun for central control. Now keep in mind, the Stormcloaks are known to utilize guerilla warfare tactics. Guess what's gonna be accompanying the Thalmor on their way to Whiterun? Ambushes. Lots of Ambushes. The Elves finally reach Whiterun, only to see that the entire city has been burned to the grounds and  the resources taken up by the Cloaks. The Thalmor keep pushing down south, with no little to no rations, extremely alien weather, and a god-awful morale status. And you know what's going to be waiting at the fair weathered Riften? The Stormcloaks. The entire remains of the army. It'll be a stand of fully fed and high morale Nords against the sorry excuse for an army Dominion. Checkmate, Skyrim has won.

    You clearly don't know what you're talking about. The Dominion is not "small", as it encompasses the Summerset Isles, Valenwood, and Elsweyr. That's roughly the same size as the current Empire. Besides, even Ulfric mentions that they cannot handle the full force of the Empire, which is damning evidence the Legion in Skyrim is merely a branch. If the Stormcloaks can't even handle a severely weakened Empire, how would they handle the Aldmeri Dominion, which has a lot of power?

    Now, what if the Thalmor go through Cyyrodil instead? The White Gold concordant does not state that the elves can simply march an entire invasion force through Cyyrodil. And as cowardly as the Empire is, there's no way in hell they'll stand by as a threat as great as an invasion army walks across their lawn. There would be a second great war as a result of this. And the cloaks, along with the redguards, would probably assist the Empire in such a scenario.

    Like I said If the Dominion wanted to use Cyrodiil as a jumping point into Skyrim, they could. The Empire will be even more weak after lose the civil war, so they are in no way set to refuse the Dominion invasion to Skyrim. Furthermore the Stormlcoaks would never go crawling back to the people they claimed were the enemy, because Nordic pride even if both hate the Dominion and the Redguards won't join the Stormcloaks because Skyrim stole lands from Hammerfell.

    • 168 posts
    September 20, 2016 2:27 PM EDT

    Patriarch said:

    Sindeed said: Also, I fully support a independent Skyrim, just not an arrogant and racist one.

    No offense, but the racism argument is hollow in a TES universe. Using real world definitions and charaterizations, EVERY race in Tamriel is racist to some degree. Arguing that Skyrim should be governed by Nords is not racist--it's a form of nationalism and protectionism. No one, at any time, claimed that Skyrim was to be governed plurialistically. Further, although the Empire claims to be egalitarian, some overheard conversations in Oblivion and ESO demonstrate that Imperials believe that the Empire should be ruled only by Imperials.

    Skyrim is the first game in TES that made me question my support of the Empire. For the record, I'm not saying I don't support the Empire--I'll leave that unsaid (like who I'm voting for in the American election in November. lol). 

    I get that racial differences are part of Tamriel, BUT the Dark Elves also thought slavery was ok, and look where it's got them now. A healthy dose of tolerance would do some good in Skyrim. And yes, why not choose tolerance? What good does making enemies of other races based ONLY on their race?

    • 168 posts
    September 20, 2016 2:35 PM EDT

     

    Races control their own respective provinces, so why can't the Nords? Patriarch made a good reply regarding race.

    Tamriel has always been destined to be united under an Empire, and has fared much better when they have done so. First you had Alessia, blessed and favoured by both Akatosh and Lorkhan, succeeded by Reman, who also had connections to the Divine (although both of those two figures had deeper, creepier connections to the Aedra and other deities). Finally, we all know of Talos' role in reuniting the continent for a Third time, with the intent to “make all things right” (his words, not mine). Many concepts have metaphysical connotations in the Aurbis, and the Empire is more than just an Empire, particularly to Talos himself.

    • 136 posts
    September 20, 2016 2:41 PM EDT

    HumanOfPrey said:

    Patriarch said:

    Sindeed said: Also, I fully support a independent Skyrim, just not an arrogant and racist one.

    No offense, but the racism argument is hollow in a TES universe. Using real world definitions and charaterizations, EVERY race in Tamriel is racist to some degree. Arguing that Skyrim should be governed by Nords is not racist--it's a form of nationalism and protectionism. No one, at any time, claimed that Skyrim was to be governed plurialistically. Further, although the Empire claims to be egalitarian, some overheard conversations in Oblivion and ESO demonstrate that Imperials believe that the Empire should be ruled only by Imperials.

    Skyrim is the first game in TES that made me question my support of the Empire. For the record, I'm not saying I don't support the Empire--I'll leave that unsaid (like who I'm voting for in the American election in November. lol). 

    I get that racial differences are part of Tamriel, BUT the Dark Elves also thought slavery was ok, and look where it's got them now. A healthy dose of tolerance would do some good in Skyrim. And yes, why not choose tolerance? What good does making enemies of other races based ONLY on their race?

    I'm not saying that tolerance is a bad thing. Quite the contrary - I'm against racism in all its forms. All I'm saying is that we're asking all Tamrielic races to do something extremely foreign to them. As I previously mentioned, even the cosmopolitan Empire was riddled with underlying racism. The real world notions of racism and tolerance simply don't compute for the average Tamrielic. Heck, it doesn't compute for many in the real world. 

    I'll agree that the phrase, "Skyrim is for the Nords," is problematic. What exactly does that phrase mean to a Nord? If it means, "only Nords allowed in this country," then yeah we have a serious problem. If it means, "Only Nords should govern this country," now we're talking about something different. I think the Nords have the right to govern their own country, as other races do in their own homelands.


    This post was edited by The_Lex at September 20, 2016 2:42 PM EDT
    • 136 posts
    September 20, 2016 2:49 PM EDT

    HumanOfPrey said:

     

    Races control their own respective provinces, so why can't the Nords? Patriarch made a good reply regarding race.

    Tamriel has always been destined to be united under an Empire, and has fared much better when they have done so. First you had Alessia, blessed and favoured by both Akatosh and Lorkhan, succeeded by Reman, who also had connections to the Divine (although both of those two figures had deeper, creepier connections to the Aedra and other deities). Finally, we all know of Talos' role in reuniting the continent for a Third time, with the intent to “make all things right” (his words, not mine). Many concepts have metaphysical connotations in the Aurbis, and the Empire is more than just an Empire, particularly to Talos himself.

    This is the point, right? The Empires you described were "destined" because there was some kind of divine, metaphysical force driving their creation and legitimacy. What divine, metaphysical force drives the Mede Dynasty? Absolutely nothing. At least, nothing we know. This is especially true in light of the fact that the Mede Empire eliminated the remaining metaphysical property of the Empire: Talos. The dragonfires no longer need to need to be lit--that eliminated the Alessia/Akatosh connection. Talos was the only thing left. And they took that away. 

    the Empire is more than just an Empire, particularly to Talos himself.

    That Empire no longer exists. As it stands, that Empire is nothing to Talos because it banned Talos from its core. If a reformed/renewed Empire emerged from the ashes with some kind of metaphysical force driving it, I'd get behind it in a second.


    This post was edited by The_Lex at September 20, 2016 2:54 PM EDT
    • 136 posts
    September 20, 2016 3:04 PM EDT

    You make some good points. Because I'm at work, I can't engage in each one just yet. However, I will respond to this comment:

    HumanOfPrey said:

    Stormcloaks are the best hope for Skyrim's safety against the Thalmor Nazis.

    You're discounting the fact Ulfric himself says the Stormcloaks cannot fight the entire Empire in an open invasion. Should you attempt to attack Solitude while the Dark Brotherhood quest "Bound Until Death" is active, you're met with this direct quote from Ulfric: "We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's cousin is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire. So we'll bide our time for now." If he admits he couldn't face a full invasion from the Empire, what real chance does he have against the Dominion (who I might also add, includes forces from Summerset Isle, Valenwood and Elsweyr)? This is Ulfric, in-game saying he could not take on Imperial forces alone. This is FACT.

    That's not a fair argument. Yes, during a time of civil war, Skyrim wouldn't be able to handle an assault from the Empire. Buildings need to be repaired, supplies restocked, equipment produced. Real world example: Although America won its war for independence against the British Empire, it would not have been able to withstand a British invasion during or even immediately after the American Civil War.

    However, Ulfric's comment does show that he can assess the political climate and make tactical decisions in the best interests of the country.


    This post was edited by The_Lex at September 20, 2016 3:06 PM EDT
    • 743 posts
    September 20, 2016 3:09 PM EDT

    HumanOfPrey said:

    Stormcloaks are the best hope for Skyrim's safety against the Thalmor Nazis.

    You're discounting the fact Ulfric himself says the Stormcloaks cannot fight the entire Empire in an open invasion. Should you attempt to attack Solitude while the Dark Brotherhood quest "Bound Until Death" is active, you're met with this direct quote from Ulfric: "We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's cousin is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire. So we'll bide our time for now." If he admits he couldn't face a full invasion from the Empire, what real chance does he have against the Dominion (who I might also add, includes forces from Summerset Isle, Valenwood and Elsweyr)? This is Ulfric, in-game saying he could not take on Imperial forces alone. This is FACT.

    Here we have the fall of a once great empire. The coward that the imperials refer to as Emporer, has just sold out Hammerfell. Were it not for them leaving the Empire, they would be currently occupied by the Dominion. Why should we trust an Empire that sells out their own people?

    Hammerfell does not despise the Empire, they seceded as they could not accept the terms of the Concordat.

    The outlaw of Talos worship is blatant discrimination to the entire Nord race. Now, obviously, the Aldmeri Dominion knew that this would result in internal chaos, and that is why the Empire is totally idiotic to have signed such a piece of garbage. The day the Empire signed the White-Gold Concordant is the day it died.

    When you lose a war and sign a treaty, you have no say in the terms of that treaty, your only option is to obey. To give you a real world example, "The Treaty of Versailles" That Germany signed at the end of WWI. Germany had to accept blame, pay reparations, they were forbidden to have submarines or an air force, could only have an army of 100,000 and lost territories. NOW lets apply this to the White-Gold Concordat, which forced the Empire to pay reparations, lose territories, disband the Blades and banned the worship of Talos. Do you see a pattern? Do you understand that when it was signed they HAD to follow through with the terms? Terms they originally rejected when faced with the Ultimatum that started the Great War. The Empire is lucky the Dominion didn't "alter the deal" as it were.

    The redguards have been holding their own for quite a while now, and the Thalmor is getting nowhere close to defeating them. But Hammerfell hasn't gone through an entire civil war, have they? That's very true, but I propose we observe how the Stormcloaks would do battle against the elves, and how an invasion of the Aldmeri Dominion would work out, (hint, it doesn't end well for the nazis.).

    If Hammerfell was some shiny example that the Stormcloaks can defeat the Dominion, then the Empire would have won the Great War in the first place. The only reason that Hammerfell won against the Dominion was because the bulk/main forces of the Dominion were in Cyrodiil fighting, the Empire left Elite troops in Hammerfell prior to signing, the Redguards put their civil war on hold and fought together and the Redguards knew the land better. It wasn't some grand victory that proved one small nation could easily defeat the Dominion, if it were that easy, Hammerfell could have just kept going and fought the elves all the way back to the Summerset Isle, instead of signing their own peace treaty. People blindly assume that just because Hammerfell won 1 victory that somehow means the Dominion can be easily defeated. "Hammerfell did it, so can Skyrim!" isn’t a valid argument without seeing the bigger picture.

    See where Skyrim is? Great, now see where the Summerset Isles are located? Excellent. Now, let's make a scenario. The Stormcloaks have just won their independence, and the Aldmeri Dominion is going to strike while Skyrim is still recovering. Sounds like a good tactic, eh? No, not at all. Let's say that the Thalmor sail ships past Hammerfell set for Skyrim. You know what's gonna happen as soon as a boat passes by the Hammerfell coast? It's gonna get sunken into the depths of oblivion. But let's just say the entire fleets goes out of its way to miss Hammerfell by going further west. That's great, their fleet is still untouched. Now they've made it to Skyrim. There're only 3 suitable ports in this province. Solitude, Dawnstar, and Windhelm. Guess what's gonna be stationed at each port? Stormcloaks. Lots of Stormcloaks. Ready to spill elven blood. The elves are going to be under constant pressure as soon as they reach land. Also, Solitude is the only port with fair weather. The rest are a freezing mess that the elves would be totally shocked by versus their nice and warm Summerset Isles. It would be an absolute clusterfuck for them.

    The Dominion could easily use Cyrodiil as a jumping point into Skyrim. The Empire, weakened from a civil war with Skyrim, is in no posistion to tell them "no", ON TOP of the fact they could feel bitter towards losing the providence AND possibly losing their Emperor to Skyrim if the Dark brotherhood questline was completed in your playthrough. Also Skyrim is a much better place to wage war in than Hammerfell. There's an abundance of forests, providing an ample amount of wood for any army. There's fresh water literally everywhere. The forests teem with game and animal life, making living off the land much easier. Armies can avoid the cold by adequately insulating their armor. There's no way to avoid the heat without losing a lot of the protection your armor provides. In Hammerfell, fresh water is practically worth its weight in gold, animals are practically nowhere to be found in the barren deserts, and metal armor acts as a furnace which cooks anybody inside.

    Let's say the Dominion finally take the ports. They're now ready to take Whiterun for central control. Now keep in mind, the Stormcloaks are known to utilize guerilla warfare tactics. Guess what's gonna be accompanying the Thalmor on their way to Whiterun? Ambushes. Lots of Ambushes. The Elves finally reach Whiterun, only to see that the entire city has been burned to the grounds and  the resources taken up by the Cloaks. The Thalmor keep pushing down south, with no little to no rations, extremely alien weather, and a god-awful morale status. And you know what's going to be waiting at the fair weathered Riften? The Stormcloaks. The entire remains of the army. It'll be a stand of fully fed and high morale Nords against the sorry excuse for an army Dominion. Checkmate, Skyrim has won.

    You clearly don't know what you're talking about. The Dominion is not "small", as it encompasses the Summerset Isles, Valenwood, and Elsweyr. That's roughly the same size as the current Empire. Besides, even Ulfric mentions that they cannot handle the full force of the Empire, which is damning evidence the Legion in Skyrim is merely a branch. If the Stormcloaks can't even handle a severely weakened Empire, how would they handle the Aldmeri Dominion, which has a lot of power?

    Now, what if the Thalmor go through Cyyrodil instead? The White Gold concordant does not state that the elves can simply march an entire invasion force through Cyyrodil. And as cowardly as the Empire is, there's no way in hell they'll stand by as a threat as great as an invasion army walks across their lawn. There would be a second great war as a result of this. And the cloaks, along with the redguards, would probably assist the Empire in such a scenario.

    Like I said If the Dominion wanted to use Cyrodiil as a jumping point into Skyrim, they could. The Empire will be even more weak after lose the civil war, so they are in no way set to refuse the Dominion invasion to Skyrim. Furthermore the Stormlcoaks would never go crawling back to the people they claimed were the enemy, because Nordic pride even if both hate the Dominion and the Redguards won't join the Stormcloaks because Skyrim stole lands from Hammerfell.

    You're discounting the fact Ulfric himself says the Stormcloaks cannot fight the entire Empire in an open invasion. Should you attempt to attack Solitude while the Dark Brotherhood quest "Bound Until Death" is active, you're met with this direct quote from Ulfric: "We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's cousin is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire. So we'll bide our time for now." If he admits he couldn't face a full invasion from the Empire, what real chance does he have against the Dominion (who I might also add, includes forces from Summerset Isle, Valenwood and Elsweyr)? This is Ulfric, in-game saying he could not take on Imperial forces alone. This is FACT.

    Ok, you really think the Empire is going to go into an all out war with the Cloaks, when the Thalmor are literally waiting with bated breath for them to do just that? No, that's not what would happen. Also, Ulfric implies that the only way an all out war against Cyyrodil would ever happen is due to a royal assassination. That is a FACT, good sir.

    Hammerfell does not despise the Empire, they seceded as they could not accept the terms of the Concordat.

    You're already nitpicking at this point. Even if the redguards do not despise the Empire, they still have a cold opinion about them. Nice try, though.

    When you lose a war and sign a treaty, you have no say in the terms of that treaty, your only option is to obey. To give you a real world example, "The Treaty of Versailles" That Germany signed at the end of WWI. Germany had to accept blame, pay reparations, they were forbidden to have submarines or an air force, could only have an army of 100,000 and lost territories. NOW lets apply this to the White-Gold Concordat, which forced the Empire to pay reparations, lose territories, disband the Blades and banned the worship of Talos. Do you see a pattern? Do you understand that when it was signed they HAD to follow through with the terms? Terms they originally rejected when faced with the Ultimatum that started the Great War. The Empire is lucky the Dominion didn't "alter the deal" as it were.

    The world war 2 analogy that you present is probably the weakest one I've ever seen before. Germany was not in the same position as the Empire. Germany had no power whatsoever to alter it, whereas the allies did. The Great War was practically a stalemate. The Empire and AD was pretty much matched, which means the Empire DID have a say so in the treaty. You act as if the Empire was the largest sufferer. The elves know how to play their cards; that is why the Imperials fell under.

    If Hammerfell was some shiny example that the Stormcloaks can defeat the Dominion, then the Empire would have won the Great War in the first place. The only reason that Hammerfell won against the Dominion was because the bulk/main forces of the Dominion were in Cyrodiil fighting, the Empire left Elite troops in Hammerfell prior to signing, the Redguards put their civil war on hold and fought together and the Redguards knew the land better. It wasn't some grand victory that proved one small nation could easily defeat the Dominion, if it were that easy, Hammerfell could have just kept going and fought the elves all the way back to the Summerset Isle, instead of signing their own peace treaty. People blindly assume that just because Hammerfell won 1 victory that somehow means the Dominion can be easily defeated. "Hammerfell did it, so can Skyrim!" isn’t a valid argument without seeing the bigger picture.

    Now you're butchering my points. I did not say the 'Cloaks could beat the Thalmor at their mainland, I stated that they could defend Skyrim. Big difference there, bud. 

    The Dominion could easily use Cyrodiil as a jumping point into Skyrim. The Empire, weakened from a civil war with Skyrim, is in no posistion to tell them "no", ON TOP of the fact they could feel bitter towards losing the providence AND possibly losing their Emperor to Skyrim if the Dark brotherhood questline was completed in your playthrough. Also Skyrim is a much better place to wage war in than Hammerfell. There's an abundance of forests, providing an ample amount of wood for any army. There's fresh water literally everywhere. The forests teem with game and animal life, making living off the land much easier. Armies can avoid the cold by adequately insulating their armor. There's no way to avoid the heat without losing a lot of the protection your armor provides. In Hammerfell, fresh water is practically worth its weight in gold, animals are practically nowhere to be found in the barren deserts, and metal armor acts as a furnace which cooks anybody inside.

    You're delusional if you believe the Empire will allow the Thalmor to stroll an invasion force through their backyard. The Empire IS in a position of telling them to get their damn troops out of the province, as that is a war threat to the Imperials.

    Skyrim is not a good place to wage war. Go back to 8th grade history and study up on Napolean's invasion of Russia. A barren wasteland filled with nothing but snow is not prime for a bunch of elves that are used to the warm islands of their home province. Insulated armor can only go so far, bro. 

    You clearly don't know what you're talking about. The Dominion is not "small", as it encompasses the Summerset Isles, Valenwood, and Elsweyr. That's roughly the same size as the current Empire. Besides, even Ulfric mentions that they cannot handle the full force of the Empire, which is damning evidence the Legion in Skyrim is merely a branch. If the Stormcloaks can't even handle a severely weakened Empire, how would they handle the Aldmeri Dominion, which has a lot of power?

    I believe you are the one who doesn't know what you're talking about. Your logic has made literally no sense so far. Like I said, the Dominion is just as weak as the Empire, they just know how to properly play their cards. Do you really think the Empire would allow the Thalmor to just take an independent Skyrim? Hell no, that would lead to the elven nazis having a station in their backyard. It would be suicide if the Empire did not assist the cloaks.

    Like I said If the Dominion wanted to use Cyrodiil as a jumping point into Skyrim, they could. The Empire will be even more weak after lose the civil war, so they are in no way set to refuse the Dominion invasion to Skyrim. Furthermore the Stormlcoaks would never go crawling back to the people they claimed were the enemy, because Nordic pride even if both hate the Dominion and the Redguards won't join the Stormcloaks because Skyrim stole lands from Hammerfell.

    Again, the Empire would not allow the Thalmor to take Skyrim, as it would allow the elves to attack them from both fronts. Nordic pride is not a valid excuse to say an alliance is impossible, just look at ESO. The Nords hate the dark elves and the argonians, yet the Ebonheart Pact was formed. I'm also quite sure the redguards would disregard the petty rivalry to help against the Dominion.

     

     

  • Mr.
    • 763 posts
    September 20, 2016 3:51 PM EDT

    What an interesting conversation. While I'm here, what do you guys think of the necessity of having Thonar Silver-Blood alive for a succesful Ulfric/Stormcloak rule of the Reach and Skyrim? Would losing he be too big of an impact, and would you consider leaving him alive the best decision, even considering everything he has done (using the Forsworn to hurt the competition and so on) or do you think that a Stormcloak ruled Skyrim would be as successful with a dead Thonar as it would if Thonar was alive? All of this considering the King in Rags, Madanach, is also dead.


    This post was edited by Mr. at September 20, 2016 3:52 PM EDT
    • 743 posts
    September 20, 2016 3:54 PM EDT

    Mr. Edd said:

    What an interesting conversation. While I'm here, what do you guys think of the necessity of having Thonar Silver-Blood alive for a succesful Ulfric/Stormcloak rule of the Reach and Skyrim? Would losing he be too big of an impact, and would you consider leaving him alive the best decision, even considering everything he has done (using the Forsworn to hurt the competition and so on) or do you think that a Stormcloak ruled Skyrim would be as successful with a dead Thonar as it would if Thonar was alive? All of this considering the King in Rags, Madanach, is also dead.

    I believe Thonar's death would make a minimal inconvenience towards the Stormcloaks. I honestly think he would be replaced without hesitation.

  • Mr.
    • 763 posts
    September 20, 2016 4:17 PM EDT

    RogueSilver said:

    Mr. Edd said:

    What an interesting conversation. While I'm here, what do you guys think of the necessity of having Thonar Silver-Blood alive for a succesful Ulfric/Stormcloak rule of the Reach and Skyrim? Would losing he be too big of an impact, and would you consider leaving him alive the best decision, even considering everything he has done (using the Forsworn to hurt the competition and so on) or do you think that a Stormcloak ruled Skyrim would be as successful with a dead Thonar as it would if Thonar was alive? All of this considering the King in Rags, Madanach, is also dead.

    I believe Thonar's death would make a minimal inconvenience towards the Stormcloaks. I honestly think he would be replaced without hesitation.

     

     Just to make sure things are clear, Thonar is not the Jarl, he's the younger brother, the one managing the finances and lands of the Silver-Blood family and the payment of the laborers. Given that they seem to supply Markarth and the Reach with half its wealth, wouldn't you say Ulfric would be better off being supported by an experienced manager such as Thonar? I say that because when we look at the other clans and families that support the Stormcloaks, none seem to match the Silver-Blood's power and wealth, with the exception perhaps of the Shatter-Shield Clan and perhaps the Cruel-Sea and that Riften one where father and son spend their whole time drinking.

     Who do you see replacing Thonar?

    • 224 posts
    September 20, 2016 7:56 PM EDT

    Zonnonn said:

    A fellow Total War lover I see, Medieval. Have you tried out the Third Age mod yet (LOTR), it's the best looking and put together one I've seen, although I've only played 2 more. Every enemy is skinned beautifully, the combat and factions are all powerful in their own ways and flavourful, it's generally great. he only bad hing is that Orcs always have more people in a unit, making auo-resolve battles always in their favour.

     

    Yes, I'm :) . I have seen the LOTR mod of Total War II, cool one, is incredible how detailed are the Overhaul mods the people create. Because I love Elder Scrolls too, the TES mod for Total War is perfect

    • 490 posts
    September 20, 2016 10:01 PM EDT
    Bring back Ayleid rule.
    • 168 posts
    September 21, 2016 11:33 AM EDT

    RogueSilver said:

    HumanOfPrey said:

    Stormcloaks are the best hope for Skyrim's safety against the Thalmor Nazis.

    You're discounting the fact Ulfric himself says the Stormcloaks cannot fight the entire Empire in an open invasion. Should you attempt to attack Solitude while the Dark Brotherhood quest "Bound Until Death" is active, you're met with this direct quote from Ulfric: "We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's cousin is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire. So we'll bide our time for now." If he admits he couldn't face a full invasion from the Empire, what real chance does he have against the Dominion (who I might also add, includes forces from Summerset Isle, Valenwood and Elsweyr)? This is Ulfric, in-game saying he could not take on Imperial forces alone. This is FACT.

    Here we have the fall of a once great empire. The coward that the imperials refer to as Emporer, has just sold out Hammerfell. Were it not for them leaving the Empire, they would be currently occupied by the Dominion. Why should we trust an Empire that sells out their own people?

    Hammerfell does not despise the Empire, they seceded as they could not accept the terms of the Concordat.

    The outlaw of Talos worship is blatant discrimination to the entire Nord race. Now, obviously, the Aldmeri Dominion knew that this would result in internal chaos, and that is why the Empire is totally idiotic to have signed such a piece of garbage. The day the Empire signed the White-Gold Concordant is the day it died.

    When you lose a war and sign a treaty, you have no say in the terms of that treaty, your only option is to obey. To give you a real world example, "The Treaty of Versailles" That Germany signed at the end of WWI. Germany had to accept blame, pay reparations, they were forbidden to have submarines or an air force, could only have an army of 100,000 and lost territories. NOW lets apply this to the White-Gold Concordat, which forced the Empire to pay reparations, lose territories, disband the Blades and banned the worship of Talos. Do you see a pattern? Do you understand that when it was signed they HAD to follow through with the terms? Terms they originally rejected when faced with the Ultimatum that started the Great War. The Empire is lucky the Dominion didn't "alter the deal" as it were.

    The redguards have been holding their own for quite a while now, and the Thalmor is getting nowhere close to defeating them. But Hammerfell hasn't gone through an entire civil war, have they? That's very true, but I propose we observe how the Stormcloaks would do battle against the elves, and how an invasion of the Aldmeri Dominion would work out, (hint, it doesn't end well for the nazis.).

    If Hammerfell was some shiny example that the Stormcloaks can defeat the Dominion, then the Empire would have won the Great War in the first place. The only reason that Hammerfell won against the Dominion was because the bulk/main forces of the Dominion were in Cyrodiil fighting, the Empire left Elite troops in Hammerfell prior to signing, the Redguards put their civil war on hold and fought together and the Redguards knew the land better. It wasn't some grand victory that proved one small nation could easily defeat the Dominion, if it were that easy, Hammerfell could have just kept going and fought the elves all the way back to the Summerset Isle, instead of signing their own peace treaty. People blindly assume that just because Hammerfell won 1 victory that somehow means the Dominion can be easily defeated. "Hammerfell did it, so can Skyrim!" isn’t a valid argument without seeing the bigger picture.

    See where Skyrim is? Great, now see where the Summerset Isles are located? Excellent. Now, let's make a scenario. The Stormcloaks have just won their independence, and the Aldmeri Dominion is going to strike while Skyrim is still recovering. Sounds like a good tactic, eh? No, not at all. Let's say that the Thalmor sail ships past Hammerfell set for Skyrim. You know what's gonna happen as soon as a boat passes by the Hammerfell coast? It's gonna get sunken into the depths of oblivion. But let's just say the entire fleets goes out of its way to miss Hammerfell by going further west. That's great, their fleet is still untouched. Now they've made it to Skyrim. There're only 3 suitable ports in this province. Solitude, Dawnstar, and Windhelm. Guess what's gonna be stationed at each port? Stormcloaks. Lots of Stormcloaks. Ready to spill elven blood. The elves are going to be under constant pressure as soon as they reach land. Also, Solitude is the only port with fair weather. The rest are a freezing mess that the elves would be totally shocked by versus their nice and warm Summerset Isles. It would be an absolute clusterfuck for them.

    The Dominion could easily use Cyrodiil as a jumping point into Skyrim. The Empire, weakened from a civil war with Skyrim, is in no posistion to tell them "no", ON TOP of the fact they could feel bitter towards losing the providence AND possibly losing their Emperor to Skyrim if the Dark brotherhood questline was completed in your playthrough. Also Skyrim is a much better place to wage war in than Hammerfell. There's an abundance of forests, providing an ample amount of wood for any army. There's fresh water literally everywhere. The forests teem with game and animal life, making living off the land much easier. Armies can avoid the cold by adequately insulating their armor. There's no way to avoid the heat without losing a lot of the protection your armor provides. In Hammerfell, fresh water is practically worth its weight in gold, animals are practically nowhere to be found in the barren deserts, and metal armor acts as a furnace which cooks anybody inside.

    Let's say the Dominion finally take the ports. They're now ready to take Whiterun for central control. Now keep in mind, the Stormcloaks are known to utilize guerilla warfare tactics. Guess what's gonna be accompanying the Thalmor on their way to Whiterun? Ambushes. Lots of Ambushes. The Elves finally reach Whiterun, only to see that the entire city has been burned to the grounds and  the resources taken up by the Cloaks. The Thalmor keep pushing down south, with no little to no rations, extremely alien weather, and a god-awful morale status. And you know what's going to be waiting at the fair weathered Riften? The Stormcloaks. The entire remains of the army. It'll be a stand of fully fed and high morale Nords against the sorry excuse for an army Dominion. Checkmate, Skyrim has won.

    You clearly don't know what you're talking about. The Dominion is not "small", as it encompasses the Summerset Isles, Valenwood, and Elsweyr. That's roughly the same size as the current Empire. Besides, even Ulfric mentions that they cannot handle the full force of the Empire, which is damning evidence the Legion in Skyrim is merely a branch. If the Stormcloaks can't even handle a severely weakened Empire, how would they handle the Aldmeri Dominion, which has a lot of power?

    Now, what if the Thalmor go through Cyyrodil instead? The White Gold concordant does not state that the elves can simply march an entire invasion force through Cyyrodil. And as cowardly as the Empire is, there's no way in hell they'll stand by as a threat as great as an invasion army walks across their lawn. There would be a second great war as a result of this. And the cloaks, along with the redguards, would probably assist the Empire in such a scenario.

    Like I said If the Dominion wanted to use Cyrodiil as a jumping point into Skyrim, they could. The Empire will be even more weak after lose the civil war, so they are in no way set to refuse the Dominion invasion to Skyrim. Furthermore the Stormlcoaks would never go crawling back to the people they claimed were the enemy, because Nordic pride even if both hate the Dominion and the Redguards won't join the Stormcloaks because Skyrim stole lands from Hammerfell.

    You're discounting the fact Ulfric himself says the Stormcloaks cannot fight the entire Empire in an open invasion. Should you attempt to attack Solitude while the Dark Brotherhood quest "Bound Until Death" is active, you're met with this direct quote from Ulfric: "We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's cousin is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire. So we'll bide our time for now." If he admits he couldn't face a full invasion from the Empire, what real chance does he have against the Dominion (who I might also add, includes forces from Summerset Isle, Valenwood and Elsweyr)? This is Ulfric, in-game saying he could not take on Imperial forces alone. This is FACT.

    Ok, you really think the Empire is going to go into an all out war with the Cloaks, when the Thalmor are literally waiting with bated breath for them to do just that? No, that's not what would happen. Also, Ulfric implies that the only way an all out war against Cyyrodil would ever happen is due to a royal assassination. That is a FACT, good sir.

    Hammerfell does not despise the Empire, they seceded as they could not accept the terms of the Concordat.

    You're already nitpicking at this point. Even if the redguards do not despise the Empire, they still have a cold opinion about them. Nice try, though.

    When you lose a war and sign a treaty, you have no say in the terms of that treaty, your only option is to obey. To give you a real world example, "The Treaty of Versailles" That Germany signed at the end of WWI. Germany had to accept blame, pay reparations, they were forbidden to have submarines or an air force, could only have an army of 100,000 and lost territories. NOW lets apply this to the White-Gold Concordat, which forced the Empire to pay reparations, lose territories, disband the Blades and banned the worship of Talos. Do you see a pattern? Do you understand that when it was signed they HAD to follow through with the terms? Terms they originally rejected when faced with the Ultimatum that started the Great War. The Empire is lucky the Dominion didn't "alter the deal" as it were.

    The world war 2 analogy that you present is probably the weakest one I've ever seen before. Germany was not in the same position as the Empire. Germany had no power whatsoever to alter it, whereas the allies did. The Great War was practically a stalemate. The Empire and AD was pretty much matched, which means the Empire DID have a say so in the treaty. You act as if the Empire was the largest sufferer. The elves know how to play their cards; that is why the Imperials fell under.

    If Hammerfell was some shiny example that the Stormcloaks can defeat the Dominion, then the Empire would have won the Great War in the first place. The only reason that Hammerfell won against the Dominion was because the bulk/main forces of the Dominion were in Cyrodiil fighting, the Empire left Elite troops in Hammerfell prior to signing, the Redguards put their civil war on hold and fought together and the Redguards knew the land better. It wasn't some grand victory that proved one small nation could easily defeat the Dominion, if it were that easy, Hammerfell could have just kept going and fought the elves all the way back to the Summerset Isle, instead of signing their own peace treaty. People blindly assume that just because Hammerfell won 1 victory that somehow means the Dominion can be easily defeated. "Hammerfell did it, so can Skyrim!" isn’t a valid argument without seeing the bigger picture.

    Now you're butchering my points. I did not say the 'Cloaks could beat the Thalmor at their mainland, I stated that they could defend Skyrim. Big difference there, bud. 

    The Dominion could easily use Cyrodiil as a jumping point into Skyrim. The Empire, weakened from a civil war with Skyrim, is in no posistion to tell them "no", ON TOP of the fact they could feel bitter towards losing the providence AND possibly losing their Emperor to Skyrim if the Dark brotherhood questline was completed in your playthrough. Also Skyrim is a much better place to wage war in than Hammerfell. There's an abundance of forests, providing an ample amount of wood for any army. There's fresh water literally everywhere. The forests teem with game and animal life, making living off the land much easier. Armies can avoid the cold by adequately insulating their armor. There's no way to avoid the heat without losing a lot of the protection your armor provides. In Hammerfell, fresh water is practically worth its weight in gold, animals are practically nowhere to be found in the barren deserts, and metal armor acts as a furnace which cooks anybody inside.

    You're delusional if you believe the Empire will allow the Thalmor to stroll an invasion force through their backyard. The Empire IS in a position of telling them to get their damn troops out of the province, as that is a war threat to the Imperials.

    Skyrim is not a good place to wage war. Go back to 8th grade history and study up on Napolean's invasion of Russia. A barren wasteland filled with nothing but snow is not prime for a bunch of elves that are used to the warm islands of their home province. Insulated armor can only go so far, bro. 

    You clearly don't know what you're talking about. The Dominion is not "small", as it encompasses the Summerset Isles, Valenwood, and Elsweyr. That's roughly the same size as the current Empire. Besides, even Ulfric mentions that they cannot handle the full force of the Empire, which is damning evidence the Legion in Skyrim is merely a branch. If the Stormcloaks can't even handle a severely weakened Empire, how would they handle the Aldmeri Dominion, which has a lot of power?

    I believe you are the one who doesn't know what you're talking about. Your logic has made literally no sense so far. Like I said, the Dominion is just as weak as the Empire, they just know how to properly play their cards. Do you really think the Empire would allow the Thalmor to just take an independent Skyrim? Hell no, that would lead to the elven nazis having a station in their backyard. It would be suicide if the Empire did not assist the cloaks.

    Like I said If the Dominion wanted to use Cyrodiil as a jumping point into Skyrim, they could. The Empire will be even more weak after lose the civil war, so they are in no way set to refuse the Dominion invasion to Skyrim. Furthermore the Stormlcoaks would never go crawling back to the people they claimed were the enemy, because Nordic pride even if both hate the Dominion and the Redguards won't join the Stormcloaks because Skyrim stole lands from Hammerfell.

    Again, the Empire would not allow the Thalmor to take Skyrim, as it would allow the elves to attack them from both fronts. Nordic pride is not a valid excuse to say an alliance is impossible, just look at ESO. The Nords hate the dark elves and the argonians, yet the Ebonheart Pact was formed. I'm also quite sure the redguards would disregard the petty rivalry to help against the Dominion.

     

     

    Ok, you really think the Empire is going to go into an all out war with the Cloaks, when the Thalmor are literally waiting with bated breath for them to do just that? No, that's not what would happen. Also, Ulfric implies that the only way an all out war against Cyyrodil would ever happen is due to a royal assassination. That is a FACT, good sir.

    Ulfric mentions that they cannot handle the full force of the Empire, which is damning evidence the Legion in Skyrim is merely a branch. If the Stormcloaks can't even handle a severely weakened Empire, how would they handle the Aldmeri Dominion, which has a lot of power?

    You're already nitpicking at this point. Even if the redguards do not despise the Empire, they still have a cold opinion about them. Nice try, though.

    Hammerfell didn’t agree with the Empire either but they didn’t start killing Imperials or standing on soap boxes claiming they no longer NEEDED the Empire, they just kept fighting the Dominion.

    The world war 2 analogy that you present is probably the weakest one I've ever seen before. Germany was not in the same position as the Empire. Germany had no power whatsoever to alter it, whereas the allies did. The Great War was practically a stalemate. The Empire and AD was pretty much matched, which means the Empire DID have a say so in the treaty. You act as if the Empire was the largest sufferer. The elves know how to play their cards; that is why the Imperials fell under.

    If the Dominion was as weak as the Empire, there wouldn’t be a “Great War 2 - Even More Great” coming soon or hell, there wouldn’t even be a cold war going on right now between the Empire and the Dominion. On top of that it's widely known the Empire had no way of knowing how much of the Dominion's forces they had beat back. They wanted/needed to get back the imperial city, and once they did it was abundantly clear their own forces were in no shape to continue the fight. There absolutely was a need to sign it.

    Now you're butchering my points. I did not say the 'Cloaks could beat the Thalmor at their mainland, I stated that they could defend Skyrim. Big difference there, bud. 

    An Independent Skyrim has no allies, 2 major borders with Thalmor already stationed there, just fought a civil war with its entire force, and Ulfric himself stated they Could not defend against an invasion from the Empire. Can Skyrim fight 2 fronts? Especially after losing men in a civil war? Especially when most of its army consists of civilians and such who have no military or combat training?  

    You're delusional if you believe the Empire will allow the Thalmor to stroll an invasion force through their backyard. The Empire IS in a position of telling them to get their damn troops out of the province, as that is a war threat to the Imperials.

    Skyrim is not a good place to wage war. Go back to 8th grade history and study up on Napolean's invasion of Russia. A barren wasteland filled with nothing but snow is not prime for a bunch of elves that are used to the warm islands of their home province. Insulated armor can only goso far, bro.

    Use the logic here. Do you think the Empire, who became even more weak after losing a civil war is in a position to stop the Thalmor? And do you think Skyrim is a frozen wasteland? Last time I checked there is no snow on Riverwood.

    I believe you are the one who doesn't know what you're talking about. Your logic has made literally no sense so far. Like I said, the Dominion is just as weak as the Empire, they just know how to properly play their cards. Do you really think the Empire would allow the Thalmor to just take an independent Skyrim? Hell no, that would lead to the elven nazis having a station in their backyard. It would be suicide if the Empire did not assist the cloaks.

    The WGC was signed in 4E 175, the civil war in Skyrim starts in 4E 201, Do you think the Dominion has just been sitting around with their thumbs up their asses for the last 26 years? They are not as weak as you would like to believe they are, and not to mention they have the Wood Elves AND the Khajiits to call on as well. It's not just everyone vs Summerset Isles. And like I said before the Empire is not in a position to stop the Thalmor after becoming even more weak after losing the civil war. And why would the Empire assist the Stormcloaks if they lose Skyrim? They just lost an entire legion to a bunch of pro-Nords barbarians yelling about how they want to kill imperials dogs, the wounds would be too fresh to even think of an alliance. The Empire lost their soldiers, so if The Dominion assaults Skyrim, The Empire will probably just watch them burn. 

    Again, the Empire would not allow the Thalmor to take Skyrim, as it would allow the elves to attack them from both fronts. Nordic pride is not a valid excuse to say an alliance is impossible, just look at ESO. The Nords hate the dark elves and the argonians, yet the Ebonheart Pact was formed. I'm also quite sure the redguards would disregard the petty rivalry to help against the Dominion.

    The Nords won't forge an alliance with anyone because of their pride. It's part of what defines the Nords as a people, and I love them for it, but it blinds them. It's something that is definetly a factor often overlooked when people try and argue "well the Nords would just call [name of the nation] for help". They wouldn't. Even Balgruuf, a pro-Empire Nord Jarl had to be convinced to let the Empire defend his city against the Stormcloaks. His steward even said "hey why don't we just let some Legionnaires die in place of some of our own men" when discussing the defense of his city. He knew Ulfric was coming for him, and was prepared to lose his hold rather than allow the Empire to help. And Did you know the Redguards and Nords fought against each other during War of Bend'r-Mahk some 600 years ago? Hammerfell just experienced Haymon Camoran or the Camoran Usurper taking advantage of the disunity between the Crowns and Forebears to invade the weakened Hammerfell. After the Camoran Usurper's invasion, the further weakened Hammerfell faced the Nords from Skyrim. The Crowns and Forebears was too caught up with their hatred for each other to face the Nords properly. It ended up with Elinhir and half of Dragonstar captured by Skyrim. So if you think Hammerfell and the Empire are going to step in and help Skyrim, you're mistaken. War grievances do not disappear overnight. 

    • 743 posts
    September 21, 2016 11:35 AM EDT

    Mr. Edd said:

    RogueSilver said:

    Mr. Edd said:

    What an interesting conversation. While I'm here, what do you guys think of the necessity of having Thonar Silver-Blood alive for a succesful Ulfric/Stormcloak rule of the Reach and Skyrim? Would losing he be too big of an impact, and would you consider leaving him alive the best decision, even considering everything he has done (using the Forsworn to hurt the competition and so on) or do you think that a Stormcloak ruled Skyrim would be as successful with a dead Thonar as it would if Thonar was alive? All of this considering the King in Rags, Madanach, is also dead.

    I believe Thonar's death would make a minimal inconvenience towards the Stormcloaks. I honestly think he would be replaced without hesitation.

     

     Just to make sure things are clear, Thonar is not the Jarl, he's the younger brother, the one managing the finances and lands of the Silver-Blood family and the payment of the laborers. Given that they seem to supply Markarth and the Reach with half its wealth, wouldn't you say Ulfric would be better off being supported by an experienced manager such as Thonar? I say that because when we look at the other clans and families that support the Stormcloaks, none seem to match the Silver-Blood's power and wealth, with the exception perhaps of the Shatter-Shield Clan and perhaps the Cruel-Sea and that Riften one where father and son spend their whole time drinking.

     Who do you see replacing Thonar?

    You make a good point regarding family politics and Thonar's experience. It would probably be a good idea to just leave him in charge. I'm not entirely sure who he'd be replaced with, though.

    • 743 posts
    September 21, 2016 12:17 PM EDT

    @HumanOfPrey I'm gonna start a new comment chain, as the current one is getting ridiculously long. I do enjoy the in-depth posts, by the way.

    Ulfric mentions that they cannot handle the full force of the Empire, which is damning evidence the Legion in Skyrim is merely a branch. If the Stormcloaks can't even handle a severely weakened Empire, how would they handle the Aldmeri Dominion, which has a lot of power?

    I already discussed in depth that the elves cannot wage war in Skyrim. They are still weak, and they simply cannot invade an alien province with totally odd weather. Again, it would be an absolute death wish to the Empire if they were to allow the elves to take a province that shares their border. They would HAVE to help Skyrim.

    If the Dominion was as weak as the Empire, there wouldn’t be a “Great War 2 - Even More Great” coming soon or hell, there wouldn’t even be a cold war going on right now between the Empire and the Dominion. On top of that it's widely known the Empire had no way of knowing how much of the Dominion's forces they had beat back. They wanted/needed to get back the imperial city, and once they did it was abundantly clear their own forces were in no shape to continue the fight. There absolutely was a need to sign it.

    There is no evidence that the Aldmeri Dominion had more power than the Empire post-Great War. The elves are cunning and simply better at playing their cards than the imperials. The Empire should not have buckled so quickly and signed that damned treaty. 

    An Independent Skyrim has no allies, 2 major borders with Thalmor already stationed there, just fought a civil war with its entire force, and Ulfric himself stated they Could not defend against an invasion from the Empire. Can Skyrim fight 2 fronts? Especially after losing men in a civil war? Especially when most of its army consists of civilians and such who have no military or combat training?  

    An independent Skyrim knows what the hell they're doing, according to you. After all, you did quote Ulfric's statement about how they couldn't survive against the Empire full-force. Ulfric must know a few things, right? He knows how to play the game, the Stormcloaks will have at least the Empire as an ally. Also, most of the troops in the 'Cloaks were former Great War vets displeased at the Empire's betrayal. 

    Use the logic here. Do you think the Empire, who became even more weak after losing a civil war is in a position to stop the Thalmor? And do you think Skyrim is a frozen wasteland? Last time I checked there is no snow on Riverwood.

    The Empire wouldn't have a choice if the Thalmor invaded Skyrim, they would have to help the Stormcloaks. The reasoning behind this is obvious; if the elves take Skyrim, they would be capable of attacking Cyyrodil on multiple fronts. That would be suicide if the imperials allowed such a thing to happen. Also, the only ports in Skyrim are in the frozen wasteland portion. The elves are gonna be in hell if they use that as staging grounds, which they would have to use, as the Empire, again, could not allow an entire invasion force to stroll through their province. They are kinda major enemies, you know.

    The WGC was signed in 4E 175, the civil war in Skyrim starts in 4E 201, Do you think the Dominion has just been sitting around with their thumbs up their asses for the last 26 years? They are not as weak as you would like to believe they are, and not to mention they have the Wood Elves AND the Khajiits to call on as well. It's not just everyone vs Summerset Isles. And like I said before the Empire is not in a position to stop the Thalmor from becoming even more weak after losing the civil war. And why would the Empire assist the Stormcloaks if they lose Skyrim? They just lost an entire legion to a bunch of pro-Nords barbarians yelling about how they want to kill imperials dogs, the wounds would be too fresh to even think of an alliance. The Empire lost their soldiers, so if The Dominion assaults Skyrim, The Empire will probably just watch them burn. 

    Of course the Dominion have been regaining their strength during the span of peace. I never suggested that they weren't. You said that the Empire only used one mere branch, surely that's not weakening them to the point of committing suicide by allowing the Dominion to take Skyrim. I'll repeat myself again; the Empire has to help Skyrim against the Thalmor. If the Dominion take Skyrim, they'll have multiple fronts to attack the imperials from. It would be suicide to not help the 'Cloaks. What do you think is worst, swallowing your pride and helping Skyrim, or dying?

    The Nords won't forge an alliance with anyone because of their pride. It's part of what defines the Nords as a people, and I love them for it, but it blinds them. It's something that is definetly a factor often overlooked when people try and argue "well the Nords would just call [name of the nation] for help". They wouldn't. Even Balgruuf, a pro-Empire Nord Jarl had to be convinced to let the Empire defend his city against the Stormcloaks. His steward even said "hey why don't we just let some Legionnaires die in place of some of our own men" when discussing the defense of his city. He knew Ulfric was coming for him, and was prepared to lose his hold rather than allow the Empire to help. And Did you know the Redguards and Nords fought against each other during War of Bend'r-Mahk some 600 years ago? Hammerfell just experienced Haymon Camoran or the Camoran Usurper taking advantage of the disunity between the Crowns and Forebears to invade the weakened Hammerfell. After the Camoran Usurper's invasion, the further weakened Hammerfell faced the Nords from Skyrim. The Crowns and Forebears was too caught up with their hatred for each other to face the Nords properly. It ended up with Elinhir and half of Dragonstar captured by Skyrim. So if you think Hammerfell and the Empire are going to step in and help Skyrim, you're mistaken. War grievances do not disappear overnight

    Yes, the Nords will forge an alliance if it means self-perseverance. ESO is an excellent demonstration of this. The nords, argonians, and dunmer all hated each other immensely, yet the Ebonheart Pact was formed. As for Hammerfell, the redguards will set aside their rivalries if it means self-preservation for them. War grievances do subside if all parties have a common enemy that threatens their nations' existence. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, right?

    • 641 posts
    September 21, 2016 2:49 PM EDT

    The thing that annoys me the most about Imperials Vs Nords is that the war in Skyrim is NOT Imperials Vs Nords, that's why it's a Civil War. It is a war between pro-Empire nords vs secessionist nords. 

    • 168 posts
    September 21, 2016 3:35 PM EDT

    @RogueSilver

    I already discussed in depth that the elves cannot wage war in Skyrim. They are still weak, and they simply cannot invade an alien province with totally odd weather. Again, it would be an absolute death wish to the Empire if they were to allow the elves to take a province that shares their border. They would HAVE to help Skyrim.

    The elves are weakened somewhat yes, but they are still a force to be reckoned with, and like I said before they have the Wood Elves and the Khajiits to call on as well. And the Empire isn't likely to let their legionnaires fight alongside the Stormcloaks after they killed so many of their brothers/sisters in arms. The wounds are too fresh to even think of an alliance.

    There is no evidence that the Aldmeri Dominion had more power than the Empire post-Great War. The elves are cunning and simply better at playing their cards than the imperials. The Empire should not have buckled so quickly and signed that damned treaty. 

    It was a little after 1 year this all took place, they JUST signed the peace treaty, and the Emperor HAS NO WAY OF KNOWING FOR SURE HOW STRONG THE ENEMY IS (I had to put it in caps because it's important to know). WE know from information produced AFTER the events that the Dominion may not have been able to fight. But even the lore doesn't state outright they were even. The Emperor can only make decisions based on the given information he had on hand, he just signed a peace treaty, the Imperial capitol was sacked, the land hadn't even healed from the scars of battle. I heard some people from other forums saying the Dominion was bluffing and the Empire should have call out the Dominion's bluff. That's reckless. It endangers the innocent people of both Cyrodiil and Skyrim, and for what?

    An independent Skyrim knows what the hell they're doing, according to you. After all, you did quote Ulfric's statement about how they couldn't survive against the Empire full-force. Ulfric must know a few things, right? He knows how to play the game, the Stormcloaks will have at least the Empire as an ally. Also, most of the troops in the 'Cloaks were former Great War vets displeased at the Empire's betrayal. 

    Ulfric knows that he is being fended off by a single legion  and as of the start of the Game, they already won. Ulfric was captured, and about to be executed. It is only because of Alduin's attack he survived, and subsequently his rebellion survived. The Stormcloaks are just getting started but they're only 1 half (if that) of skyrim, while the Legion forces have ALL of Cyrodiil, the 1 legion that's been holding off the rebellion, and the soldiers in High Rock. Not counting the (very few) elite troops that were left in Hammerfell. If Skyrim becomes independent by killing imperials to gain independence, Ulfric won't just allow more Imperials back into Skyrim to help, and would be less likely to offer their help, even if they both hate the Dominion. 

    The Empire wouldn't have a choice if the Thalmor invaded Skyrim, they would have to help the Stormcloaks. The reasoning behind this is obvious; if the elves take Skyrim, they would be capable of attacking Cyyrodil on multiple fronts. That would be suicide if the imperials allowed such a thing to happen. Also, the only ports in Skyrim are in the frozen wasteland portion. The elves are gonna be in hell if they use that as staging grounds, which they would have to use, as the Empire, again, could not allow an entire invasion force to stroll through their province. They are kinda major enemies, you know.

    The Empire could very well attack Skyrim themselves, bitter at the loss of the nation, its troops, possibly its Emperor, and out of fear Ulfric will instigate a premature attack on their lands.

    Of course the Dominion have been regaining their strength during the span of peace. I never suggested that they weren't. You said that the Empire only used one mere branch, surely that's not weakening them to the point of committing suicide by allowing the Dominion to take Skyrim. I'll repeat myself again; the Empire has to help Skyrim against the Thalmor. If the Dominion take Skyrim, they'll have multiple fronts to attack the imperials from. It would be suicide to not help the 'Cloaks. What do you think is worst, swallowing your pride and helping Skyrim, or dying?

    Indeed if the Thalmor invade Skyrim, they'll have multiple fronts to attack the imperials from. But Skyrim and the Empire have grudges and will do nothing unless directly attacked.

    Yes, the Nords will forge an alliance if it means self-perseverance. ESO is an excellent demonstration of this. The nords, argonians, and dunmer all hated each other immensely, yet the Ebonheart Pact was formed. As for Hammerfell, the redguards will set aside their rivalries if it means self-preservation for them. War grievances do subside if all parties have a common enemy that threatens their nations' existence. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, right?

    Just because they have a common foe doesn't mean they are going to forge an alliance because an alliance is defined by mutual benefit, that means "You do X for me and in return I do Y for you". I have in fact been attempting more research on the actual provinces and their relations, one thing I did come across is the fact that Skyrim still owns parts of Hammerfell. SO that means 1 of 2 things, either the Redguards could in fact use the lands the Nords took as a bartering chip in forming an alliance, or Hammerfell won't forge ANY sort of alliance partly due to fear of losing MORE lands having the Nords "help" take out the Thalmor. This honestly could go either way, but for me it just tells me Hammerfell isn't likely going to accept help from anyone. If Hammerfell was losing ground, or losing too many men, or if they were advancing on the Thalmor, collecting ships and supplies, someone approaching them with aid/supplies could forge an alliance to face a common enemy. As is stands now, Hammerfell is fine on its own. 

    • 585 posts
    September 21, 2016 4:38 PM EDT
    Medieval said:

    Zonnonn said:

    A fellow Total War lover I see, Medieval. Have you tried out the Third Age mod yet (LOTR), it's the best looking and put together one I've seen, although I've only played 2 more. Every enemy is skinned beautifully, the combat and factions are all powerful in their own ways and flavourful, it's generally great. he only bad hing is that Orcs always have more people in a unit, making auo-resolve battles always in their favour.

     

    Yes, I'm :) . I have seen the LOTR mod of Total War II, cool one, is incredible how detailed are the Overhaul mods the people create. Because I love Elder Scrolls too, the TES mod for Total War is perfect

    The game is amazing for those kind of mods, I've played a Game of Thrones one as well and that was loads of fun.
    • 224 posts
    September 26, 2016 12:30 AM EDT

    Patriarch said:

    Medieval said:

    Hello!

    This post touch my hearth, as all topics related to war and battles

    So here is a little gift for everyone who enjoy this kind of stuff!!

    For anyone who wish to have a full Real time strategy game totally based on Elder Scrolls, quality made, fully lore-friendly, your dreams have come true

     

    Its needed Total War II game

     

    The mod: The Elder Scrolls Total War

    http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-elder-scrolls-total-war/images

     

    The game is so so so so extremely cool, one can play for hours, you will be hungry for battles and conquer, even learn how to create special tacticts what totally worths

     

    Medieval

     

    Oooor, you could play ESO, join a guild and do this very thing. Our guild strategizes attack patterns, create distractions for other guilds, and advance on the map of Cyrodiil. Plus, you play against real players - so every fight is unpredictable, forcing you to communicate with your team and adapt to changing circumstances.

    Just my $.02

     

    I know, I love played Elder Scrolls Online, love PvP, was so exating, as you said you can create strategies in real time, form groups, run raids, even I lead some groups of a lot of people, I think that was the most exating. How I miss those days :/. Sadly I cant play it anymore, for some reason my video card doesnt run it, maybe due I uploaded to Windows 10, and also my internet connection this days suck so I'm out of it. But definitely PvP on Elder Scrolls Online is a kind of Total War game :)

    • 224 posts
    September 26, 2016 12:32 AM EDT

    Zonnonn said:
    Medieval said:

    Zonnonn said:

    A fellow Total War lover I see, Medieval. Have you tried out the Third Age mod yet (LOTR), it's the best looking and put together one I've seen, although I've only played 2 more. Every enemy is skinned beautifully, the combat and factions are all powerful in their own ways and flavourful, it's generally great. he only bad hing is that Orcs always have more people in a unit, making auo-resolve battles always in their favour.

     

    Yes, I'm :) . I have seen the LOTR mod of Total War II, cool one, is incredible how detailed are the Overhaul mods the people create. Because I love Elder Scrolls too, the TES mod for Total War is perfect

    The game is amazing for those kind of mods, I've played a Game of Thrones one as well and that was loads of fun.

     

    I havent played Games of thrones mod!! Damn I miss it, must be really cool, I'm recently a real fan of teh series. I think I must try the mod for Total War, thanks for the comment :)