Forums » Elder Scrolls

Gender Roles in TES

  • Tom
    • 624 posts
    January 28, 2016 7:08 AM EST

    But alas, only one makes a good maid.

    • 700 posts
    January 28, 2016 8:01 PM EST

    I mean, if you read the 36 Lessons, subjects like anal sex are broached

    O_O

    Well that caught me off guard. 

    I've never played Morrowind, so how exactly is lore dispensed in that game compared to Skyrim? 

    • 1595 posts
    January 29, 2016 5:19 AM EST

    O_O

    Well that caught me off guard. 

    I've never played Morrowind, so how exactly is lore dispensed in that game compared to Skyrim? 

    Now there's a can of worms Liege. The best way of putting it is using the gameplay to help illustrate it, followed by a bit of noodling on the subject of divinity.

    Firstly, from a gameplay standpoint: You can use a spell called ALMSIVI Intervention which when cast teleports you to the nearest Temple. You'd like to believe this is the hand of the Tribunal at work. You can cast a similar spell called Divine Intervention which does exactly the same thing except takes you to the nearest Imperial Cult Shrine instead. All well and good, roleplaying abounds. Until, that is, you buy the Mark and Recall spells which does the same thing only better. If you care enough you are left wondering, "did ALMSIVI intervene at all?"

    The second thing is about divinity and how it is portrayed. There are numerous contradictory stories on the apotheosis of The Tribunal, so many in fact that it just becomes a case of pick your favourite. The 36 Lessons can be taken as less a truth than a piece of propaganda, depending on what story you buy into. Hell, the 36 Lessons contain at least two hidden messages, one of which is "He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this."

    That aside, one of the things I absolutely love about Morrowind and the history of the Dunmer is the fall of Baar Dau. See, in the same Sermon that anal sex reference is from we also get this wonderful exchange between Nerevar and Vivec:

    When Nerevar returned, he saw the frozen comet above his lord's city. He asked whether or not Vivec wanted it removed.

    'I would have done so myself if I wanted, silly Hortator. I shall keep it there with its last intention intact, so that if the love of the people of this city for me ever disappear, so shall the power that holds back their destruction.'

    Nerevar said, 'Love is under your will only.'

    Vivec smiled and told the Hortator that he had become a Minister of Truth.

    We know what happens to the Ministry of Truth, it crashes into the earth and causes the Red Year. It begs the question, was Vivec right? Did the comet crash because the people stopped loving him and thus proving his divine power once and for all?

    Or did the people stop believing in the Triune Faith after the events of TES III Morrowind and subsequently the once steady stream of pilgrims leaving donations of levitation potions at the Ministry of Truth dry up?

    Either way it get's you thinking. The other good one along a similar vein is the Ghost Fence. The Tribunal used much of their power sustaining it to keep out the Blight. Somehow they managed to change the Dunmeri traditions and got people to donate a portion of their bones to sustain this barrier.

    Who was really keeping out the Blight and holding up the Ministry of Truth, the Gods or the people of Morrowind? If the answer is the latter, does it mean you doubt the Tribunal's divinity more or less? I mean, to inspire an entire nation to do these things is no mean feat. One might say it is godly, even.

    • 1595 posts
    January 29, 2016 5:43 AM EST

    Damn, I was so busy waffling I forgot to actually answer the question. The difference in how lore is presented in Morrowind compared to Skyrim is that in TES III it is all from the point of view of the people. The main quest and the Ashlander prophecies hammer home this point. Depending on how you see it, you could be the prophesied Nerevarrine or just someone who, through a series of unforeseeable events just happens to share the same traits as that individual of prophecy.

    Skyrim gave us a few moments of perspective, especially around the Dragon War and the Way of the Voice - who taught who the Thu'um is a contradiction and a matter of personal belief to some extent but it sort of pales in comparison to the complexity of Morrowind.

    Skyrim nailed it with "Alduin is Real and He 'ent Akatosh." That is the right way of doing it. Then along comes KP Gelebor and tells us "Auriel, Alkosh and Akatosh are all the same" and proceeded to set us back I don't know how long.

    You try discussing the subject with someone now. "Nope, Akatosh is Auriel. Gelebor says so." Now the rich and complex lore of TES has been reduced to a series of fucking codex entries.

    • 700 posts
    January 29, 2016 2:21 PM EST

    I think I see what you're saying. It reminds me of something I read very briefly a few months ago in Lore. There were a few comments going back and forth that referred to TES lore as "sand" as opposed to something more solid, like concrete. And that sounds like what Morrowind and Alduin is Real did, if I'm understanding you correctly. The lore has flow, it can go multiple directions, there are gaps left for the player to interpret and fill, to think about, rather than presenting the player with an absolutely solid account of what's true, like Gelebor did. 

    Is that about right? I admit, I do quite like the kind of lore that leaves room for interpretation. I think that's why, even though I enjoy Mass Effect, I have trouble getting into its lore which are literal codex entries :P.

    Still, I'm more interested in Morrowind now than I've ever been. I'll have to queue it up in my list of games. Thanks for taking the time to explain all of this too! It's really quite helpful. 

    • 1595 posts
    January 30, 2016 4:09 AM EST

    You're thanking me for completely derailing your topic? Lol, you're welcome

    I think you've summed it up nicely Liege. Gelebor's statement is still in-character and only reflects his opinion so  it is still very much open to interpretation, but the very fact he said it without there really being an obvious counter opinion in the quest makes him a sort of Mr Exposition. Those less familiar to the lore could take what he said at face value - which is fine, but leaves no room for discussion. That's really all we do, discuss and interpret until we think we have found the interpretation most likely to be the truth.

    I like codexes codisies codex-style encyclopedias like Mass Effect uses, but TES just has a very different method which suits it perfectly.

    But yeah, ultimately TES lore should be about interpretation and Morrowind simply gave us a helluva lot to interpret.

  • January 30, 2016 6:44 PM EST

    and that doesn't change until civilization when you see that shifting of power and authority to men when class systems, property rights, and inheritance become a thing.

    Ancient Egypt and Ancient Persia, and maybe Etruscan civilization, were quite modern — not that any of our ideas are new — in regards to gender in comparison to their neighbours, not that more could not have and that history could not have happened any differently (humans have a tendency towards fatalism and related other silliness).

    I think there is a reason the Stormcloaks have many more women in their ranks than the Legion

    I think it is because the game takes place in Skyrim (not really the reason but that is my reason), which would make sense as the Stormcloaks are — despite the bland presentation in Skyrim — engaging in guerrilla warfare. Women would seem more inconspicuous to your average Legionnaire, and considering the Stormcloaks are defending their homeland — as they see it — women might be more encouraged to take up arms, which can also be coupled with their warrior culture.

    Whilst the Legionnaires in Skyrim are from Skyrim, they see it more as stopping a rebellion, something was not supposed to last but a few months, and it almost did. Regardless, no point in sending your daughters to stop a rebellion, right? It is not total war, after all.

    Now, against the Dominion? That's different.

    • 1595 posts
    January 31, 2016 4:28 AM EST

    That's a very interesting interpretation in regard to the role of women in the Gormcloak rebellion and a great way to bring this back on topic.

    Whilst the Legionnaires in Skyrim are from Skyrim, they see it more as stopping a rebellion, something was not supposed to last but a few months, and it almost did. Regardless, no point in sending your daughters to stop a rebellion, right? It is not total war, after all.

    Now, against the Dominion? That's different.

    Are you suggesting the Imperial Army left the lady legionnaires at home? That'd be a strange way of managing a campaign. Or are you advocating that the Imperial Legion has very few women in their ranks?

    Either of those would be interesting and may speak volumes about the culture.

  • February 1, 2016 12:08 AM EST

    Are you suggesting the Imperial Army left the lady legionnaires at home?

    Conceivably, although Skyrim is home in this case.

    Or are you advocating that the Imperial Legion has very few women in their ranks?

    I cannot give an estimate on the number of women in their ranks — TES does not offer such information as it has yet to be relevant, really — but I doubt they would make up a large portion, and I expect women Legionnaires to be primarily healers; all of the Imperialized female Divines are associated with nurturing aspects, unlike the (traditional) Nords, whose beliefs and legends consist of shield-maidens, and I also prefer to view the Stormcloaks as adherents to traditional beliefs. I do not like how the Nords were Imperialized in Skyrim but that is a digression.

    Anyway, I was analyzing the possibility within a sexist framework of kinship and its unfortunate implications in regards to battle.

    Ulfric's nationalist diatribe at the gates of Solitude uses feminine language to describe Skyrim and the Nords' connection to the province. "In cities across Covenant lands, stories grow of Orcs defiling our women [my emphasis] and siring unnatural half-breeds!" says a racist Breton in Orcs: The Vermin Amongst Us. What, Orc women are not defiling Breton and Redguard men?

    I doubt the Imperials are any less reactionary in this regard. If anything, they might be more so as Saint Alessia is more or less the mother of their imperialistic heritage, but this is all speculative. Such sentiments are more apparent in this world because humans have only each other to fight but I expect the frequent conflict with elves and the widespread racism against them would lead to something similar.

    • 1595 posts
    February 1, 2016 6:26 AM EST

    Excellent point about the legion medics, hadn't considered that. Also, I like your note about the WWI-style propaganda:

    I wonder if in discussions like this if we risk transferring too much, that we may view Imperial culture as being slightly misogynistic in its views towards women based on our own society's history.

    To counter that, how cool would it be if the simple reason why we don't see many women in the Legions is simply because the majority choose not to? Alessia brought life to the idea that brings the gods great joy - freedom.

  • February 18, 2016 3:03 AM EST

    I wonder if in discussions like this if we risk transferring too much, that we may view Imperial culture as being slightly misogynistic in its views towards women based on our own society's history.

    Conceivably, and I view any conculture remotely Greco-Roman inspired as having a hint of misogyny, so I am definitely not being biased. Then again, I have never had any positive interaction with people with Latin names and Romanesque avatars, for what it is worth considering the internet is... stupid.

    To counter that, how cool would it be if the simple reason why we don't see many women in the Legions is simply because the majority choose not to?

    Not cool, or bad.

    • 27 posts
    March 8, 2016 12:37 PM EST

    Heh, I dunno, I run Immersive patrols so I've killed plenty of Imperial female Soldiers, most of them as scouts which is peculiar. Same with Civil War Overhaul....

    But honestly since there are several different roles where females play eith a strong lead or equal support, I don't think there is that much bias. I do find it hilarious that in the vanilla game the only females in the Imperial army are high ranking and ummm....oh yeah Nord! You could say that the run of the mill Imperial woman has no use for violent professions I suppose.

    • 1441 posts
    March 8, 2016 12:41 PM EST

    If you've played past Elder Scrolls games, there is a difference in stats between the genders, aside from Imperials, who are the most balanced. thoughts?

    • 27 posts
    March 8, 2016 1:56 PM EST

    Interesting, I never played the older games. Skyrim was the first single player game I've played in a very very long time unless we are talking RTS war games. I think if there is a difference between gender stats, I would have to see if they were balanced or over favored between one gender and the other and then if there were ways to compensate so as to put the genders on equal footing. I do know for a long time there were MMOs that were bugged to favor female running speeds and reaction times over males.  I guess in the end it just depends upon the stat differences before I oucld make a firm position on that topic.

    • 1441 posts
    March 8, 2016 1:58 PM EST

    Like, female characters often had more endurance and intelligence, men more strength and whatnot

    • 700 posts
    March 8, 2016 7:39 PM EST

    What are the stat differences? I haven't played anything before Skyrim extensively enough to be familiar with them. 

  • Tom
    • 624 posts
    March 9, 2016 2:39 PM EST

    I'm stuck on DnD-style stats, but it'd make more sense to me for women to have a higher charisma or social skill compared to men's strength.

    • 404 posts
    March 9, 2016 2:53 PM EST

    D&D is a great series of board games. I use part of it for my ideas.

    • 41 posts
    April 26, 2016 1:24 AM EDT
    There was one group... Zainab I think? That basically ignored their wise women xD