Forums » Fallout

Game Play Over Role Play

    • 12 posts
    December 2, 2015 12:29 AM EST

    Fallout 4 is is an amazing game but I can't help feeling its more of a trade off than a total improvement. I've spent almost 270 hours in the game and I can't help feeling role playing players got screwed over this time around. I can't seem to immerse myself in it like I did with previous titles such as fallout: new vegas and skyrim. There are little RPG elements in this game and I find that highly disturbing for a game meant to be an RPG title.

    I first would like to tackle the the speech system/player choices. I'm pretty sure we've all heard by now how it is pretty lacking in player choices. I've made 4 characters now and each of them go with the set 4 options available. It pretty much all equals the same or you sometimes have the option to say yes or no. Now, don't get me wrong, your choices can sometimes have impact and you can do outright evil choices. But, the lack of choice is so underwhelming that I can't help feeling like the title should be called "Fallout 4: Story Mode". Now I won't go as far to say it is a linear game leading to one choice, because that is simply not the case. But how you want your character to be is pretty much ruined by the voice system.

    Now, I wasn't against the voice system on my first play through. But after my second and third play through, you start realizing the flaws with it. creating a new character, that is suppose to be different from the others feels non-existent. I think this is ruined by the characters having the same exact voice. Different face, same person. And you seriously cannot be a bad guy in this game. It's more of, "you were a good person, but the bombs fell, and you're a victim of this wasteland world. You've had it pretty tough, you're just misunderstood. Just gotta do what you gotta do to survive out here." This is pretty apparent with the "mean" options. The character's voice isn't always that "mean" sounding at all. You really have a hard time being evil in this game compared to the other titles. I guess that's for this whole thing that they were going for which is the "grey area" which brings me to...

    The Karma System. Now at first, I didn't mind there not being a karma system. I really just thought it was a cheap gimmick in the other games and I don't need the game to tell me if my character is bad. But after playing different ways from each of the 4 characters, you start to realize how useful it to sort of have or "earn" a reputation whether it be good or bad. Now I honestly don't believe the karma system needs to be upfront and center like the previous games, but at least have it in the back round.

    This kind of takes me back to a voice protagonist. It really seems like a rip off from Mass Effect's Commander Shepard. But I don't want a commander Shepard, I want to create my own character as I kind of expected from fallout. No matter what you do, your character is pretty much predefined and he's going to respond to situation how the voice character responds to them. There is no room for imagination and the ability to create the character as your own.

    I think I'm done though. that's all the issues I've had with the game really. Everything else I really like. the combat, the graphics, the world itself is pretty amazing. I just can't help feeling RP players got screwed this time around.

    • 1595 posts
    December 2, 2015 4:04 AM EST

    Great post Isaac, very thoughtful. Are you sure you've come to the right place?  This is a matter I've been quite vocal about in the last few months too, especially as I have had my world turned upside down by The Witcher Wild Hunt which has challenged the idea that a predefined character is not as good as a "blank slate" character in terms of immersion and emotional attachment.

    Allow me to explain what I mean.

    As a fan of long time fan of Bioware's RPGs and more recently CD Projekt Red's Witcher games it is almost unfair to compare the dialogue system in a Bethesda game alongside those greats. Games like Fallout 3 and 4, Oblivion, Skyrim and Morrowind are great at doing what they do - which is to say giving the player the freedom to be who he/she wants to be. But the dialogue has always sucked even to the point of immersion breaking. You can imagine your character to be a grizzled veteran of the Great War all you want but as soon as another character refers to you as a 'boy' then the suspension of disbelief is shattered. So the sensible way around that problem is to have a shallow dialogue system and let the player's imagination do the rest.

    This is great and allows for a massive amount of character flexibility and freedom which in turn allows for a bigger sandbox to play in but doesn't allow for much emotional fulfilment. You can imagine Lydia is the love of your life all you want but you'll never feel any connection there beyond what you imagine.

    Games like Bioware's Mass Effect RPGs are almost the exact opposite in their focus on story and character over and above an open world. You can finish the games and feel like you have left friends behind in those worlds more than in a Bethesda game but each subsequent play through feels less and less unique compared to a game like Skyrim which is big enough for multiple interpretations.

    At least that was the traditional viewpoint.

    Now we are well into a new era of RPGs which have demonstrated that this mode of thinking is out dated. DA:I and Witcher 3 have demonstrated it is possible to have huge open worlds and emotional, story driven plots like never before. One thing even they can't do is allow for a totally blank slate character simply because the sheer number of options would make it an impossible task. To get around this, the characters are predefined to a certain extent, the player being allowed to colour in the remaining gaps through dialogue choices and decisions.

    Bioware have had a long time to perfect this style whereas it's new for Bethesda. While I am often critical of Fallout 4 and how distinctly underwhelmed I am by it and wondering why after seven years the best they could do was make it feel like Fallout 3.5, I don't think the voiced protagonists are the problem.

    Indeed, I reckon the dialogue is the best thing about the game so far and one of the only reasons I am dragging my arse all over the wasteland just to hear what my character Jennifer says next. Bitchy, smartassed, genuine, helpful or somewhat cruel, for the first time in a Bethesda game my character feels real rather than a two dimensional stereotype given life by my own imagination. Playing an evil character is fun and easy in a game like Skyrim because of that emotional gap. When you exist in a world which you never feel part of it makes playing a blood sucking vampire assassin necromancer quite easy. Playing a complete and total dick in Mass Effect is a lot harder because there isn't that emotional gap. Anyone who has played KotOR and chose the dark side knows where I am coming from I'm sure. Being the villain in that game was a lot more difficult emotionally than in any Bethesda game.

    So, TL;DR. I disagree and think the voiced protagonist is not the fault of why F4 lacks the same level of immersion as Skyrim. The problem with Fallout 4 and roleplaying lies not with it's dialogue system but within it's setting and how the story is delivered.

    • 649 posts
    December 2, 2015 4:38 AM EST

    The problem with Fallout 4 and roleplaying lies not with it's dialogue system but within it's setting and how the story is delivered.

    I agree. Dialogue isn´t bad and while it should help me, I can´t really get connected to my character. As I mentioned elsewhere, the game didn´t really make me care about the problems. I was only after Shaun. When I found him, I felt like completing the game, because I suddenly didn´t care about anything.

    I can´t really say why Iˇm not able to immerse with my character, I just can´t. So the game turned only to good FPS open-world game (because the combat is quite good FPS).

    And Phil, I agree with that "Fallout 3.5" opinion. After 7 years, all we got is slightly improved combat, new perk system, some crafting. There just isn´t that huge leap forward as with Morrowind-Oblivion-Skyrim.

    • 1595 posts
    December 2, 2015 6:51 AM EST

    As I mentioned elsewhere, the game didn´t really make me care about the problems. I was only after Shaun. When I found him, I felt like completing the game, because I suddenly didn´t care about anything

    Obvious SPOILERS AHEAD is obvious but I agree with this and will also use it to emphasise my point. I was after Shaun too and I found I genuinely cared thanks to the voice actress. When I met Father I was hopping for a Jack style "fuck you asshole" dialogue choice before the penny dropped when he explained what was going on. The game didn't disappoint and I vented with feeling!

    It was a moment in the game where plot, emotion, voice actor and dialogue were all working together in the right place at the right time and I was invested in my character. My problem is that these moments were few and far between.

    The voice acting was always on point, although I was frustrated when she said something I wasn't expecting, but that is the fault of the dialogue wheel rather than the acting. I say something sarcastic and something funny is said. So I choose sarcasm next time and something mean is said. If it were written on screen like the old style then maybe it would be easier to remain in-character rather than the pot-luck answers I started with. I figured out that the A button was normally morally good, B was morally questionable, Y was further info and X was sarcasm. Trouble was that when choosing Y I couldn't then go back and choose A when clued in.

    Another example of that roleplay/player distance comes from how the story is delivered. When I met Piper she was on about the Synth menace, how they have infiltrated society and all that stuff. I read her paper but didn't have enough to form an opinion due to lack of prior set up. The very next quest involved a detective who was a Synth. Yet Piper said naught about it and it turned out I needed him and liked him to boot.

    The point I'm making here is that for me in the space of five minutes I went from thinking Synths are a real menace to thinking that only Synths who pretend to be human are a menace. Those who look like machines but act human are fine.

    Was it only the insecurity Piper doesn't like? Does it help to be able to categorise something on sight? It was a philosophical question I had no time for in my quest to find Shaun. The Synth issue was like a background noise the game didn't make me listen to until much later and by then it was too late.

    Contrast this with the Geth in Mass Effect and AI in general portrayed in that series. You're not playing the game long when the issue of AI comes up and you're forced to confront it. By then you have plenty of exposition under your belt (thanks Tali) and your Shepard can have a definite opinion one way or another. fast forward to ME2 and whether you should save Legion or throw him out an airlock and chances are your Shepard already knows what he/she will do.

    So for me the Synth thing was dropped to late and when I was preoccupied with finding my son. Which totally worked as a driving force in the same way Ciri worked as W3's MacGuffin but lacked the same art. In that game many of the side quests were somehow linked to that search and, in a very clever way, introduced new characters and issues to care about in the process. Fallout 4 isn't as artful at weaving story threads together leaving me cold to some characters and plots.

    • 649 posts
    December 2, 2015 8:07 AM EST

    The game made me care only about finding Shaun. Why should I care about Synths? Building new settlements? Minutemen, Brotherhood of Steel or Railroad? You only start to care somehow once you find out the Institute is involved. So you have to get some help, that´s ok. Every group has different opinions, and that´s the problem. You have to make a decision to join one of those groups without actually having your own opinion.

    You meet some guy and his brother in the marke with guard killing the (supposed) Synth. Then you meet two exactly same guys outside Diamond City with one pointing a gun at the other one a both scream at you "He´s a Synth!" And that´s it? That´s supposed to help me form an opinion? What a bullshit.

    And that whole "boogeyman" thing...well, even that didn´t made me care. As you said, Piper preaches about Institute being a real threat, it´s Synths are common danger and then you meet Nick. Quite cool Synth. And then there are Synths that want to kill you.

    I.DON´T.CARE.

    • 12 posts
    December 2, 2015 1:05 PM EST

    thanks for the responses guys! I'm going to try to respond in one go to everyone because I'm getting  a general consensus from your posts. Now that I've read your comments, I think my post was lacking in details I should have went into. First off, I agree with you all to an extent, especially Bethesda going into a field they are not use to and trying something knew with voice characters. The story made me very emotional. (I want to put a SPOILER ALERT for anyone that is going to further read my comment). Making my character look like me, have my name, and having Codsworth say my name made me very immersed with that one specific character which was my first play through. In my opinion, this is one of the best stories in a game I have ever come across. I couldn't help feeling attached NPCs and followers. During my first play through, I was totally immersed. These were my decisions, and my views and my choices that I would make. But my choices for this game effected me for my first character that I made my own. When I fist saw Shaun, I thought to myself "this old fool has my eyes! huh... not your average looking mad scientist game villain... Why doe he look like me though?!" ( I actually shot "father" and tried to get my synth son who I thought was my real son out of there but then realized it was a mistake so reloaded. But even then, you could actually totally go with that option and the game continues which I found amazing.) So after I found out Shaun was my own son... I thought to myself, "dear God, its my son!" I was completely immersed the whole way through on my first play through. It also effected my relationships I had with my "friends". But that's what had me ponder a bit, I thought of these NPCs as my friends. Especially Nick Valentine. In fact, I was so emotionally attached to the idea as nick being a friend that when I sided with the institute, I couldn't face him... I felt ashamed for what I believed, that he was just a robot... A slave, meant for experimental purposes and nothing more. it took me 2 weeks of playing (and after playing with him with the other characters I made) to get the courage to talk to him on the character that was me. And when I did, I felt even more hurt and ashamed because I felt like I betrayed a friend. But there was no other choice I could make! how could I betray my own son?! how could I destroy his legacy! how could I reject the gift where his only chance to show he had love for me was to leave everything he had for me. So I was very immersed my first time around with the story Bethesda created. But after creating my second character, because I like to create multiple characters to role play... It felt off. I did a sarcastic playthrough railroad agent with my second play through. (after writing this I realized my problem might be I got too attached to my first character and his decisions so that might be the main issue for me why I don't feel immersed). With my second character, it still felt like it was this one person. The first character I created. And I honestly blame it on the voice and the options. I started to realize, its still the same. These options all lead to one goal and it feels like the same choices from my first play through. Minus the big choices like deciding which factions to join and the "yes or no" ultimatums you come across. It felt like it was still the same person. Not only did it break my immersion for my second character, but also for my first as I started to realize... This isn't my voice. This isn't how I would respond or how I would say this. Its kind of the thing with Commander Shepard where I can get immersed because right off the bat I know this is Commander Shepard and this is his mission. Right now, in this game, I am playing as Commander Shepard. Same with the Witcher series as well. This is Geralt of Rivia and I am doing his quest!. But like I said, I don't want another "third person" RPG, meaning this is a predefined role I must play and make his or her choices. I wanted an original Bethesda game where I can make a character and use my imagination to decide what this character is like. With the voice, it feels like someone else's identity. I agree with Phil when he mentioned the dialogue has always not been so good with the options.. But I think it comes down to how vivid your imagination is. Me, I have a very vivid imagination, so its probably easier for me to imagine my characters roles. But with the voicing... It makes it predefined. It makes it feel like this is someone else and their choices. Which I wouldn't mind if I wasn't so use to Bethesda making immersive "create your own character/life" games. But I guess it comes all comes down to personal preference. The thing with not caring about anything else but the story, I felt that too at first, but the more I discovered on my own the more I started to realize Bethesda did this on purpose. I think instead of trying to get the game to force you to explore, they leave it totally up to the player to find out on their own. For example, like karver mentioned, I didn't really know about the synth too much or what they were about. I just went with the story and after I finished I felt that was that, I'm done. But when I made other characters I started to discover that the story is spread out through the whole world of the game. with my first character, I had formed the opinion, "The institute isn't all that bad, they haven't done anything TERRIBLY wrong under the leadership of Shaun. They kind of are the best hope for humanity with all this superior technology they have. Synths are just robots!" But it wasn't until I forced myself to explore with my second character that I started to find things interesting. (I'd like to put another spoiler alert for anyone who hasn't discovered some things on their own and would like to) The institute isn't really trying to save humanity, they're trying to save themselves. They've massacred whole towns including children over stupid misunderstandings on their end, being merciless and careless. Not only that, but they have been infecting the populous with their strand of the FEV virus making the super mutants run freely. I couldn't help feeling disgusted and that everyone wasn't being paranoid like the institute made it seem. These people had legitimate concerns and hatred for what the institute has done. It's the same with the other factions as well. It's actually hard to discover some key things without doing multiple play throughs. (or at least reading or watching online). So I think the game totally leaves it up to the player to decide to branch off from the story if they want. But I have to admit, the game doesn't seem to give you a reason to. You have to discover it totally on your own. I liked finding out about Preston Garvey and how the minute men were destroyed. It actually goes into full detail  throughout the world on how they got to that point where you needed to save them. Also, I definitely agree it feels like fallout 3.5 or even Skyrim: Fallout Edition. But Honestly I think it has more to do with the industry and console limitations. (Sorry that my response doesn't have separated paragraphs and my have typos. I'm a bit tired and I got lazy lol )