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• Karver the Lorc

  

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  September 24, 2015 2:00 PM EDT

  Well, Arkay being a mortal before ascending to godhood is actually only one interpration of the nature of Arkay.

• Chris

  

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  September 24, 2015 2:04 PM EDT

  Some have him as the son of Akatosh and Mara

• Dakota

  

  • 39 posts
   

  September 24, 2015 7:05 PM EDT

  Obey the Thalmor! All Hail the Thalmor! All hail the 8 gods!
• Tom

  

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  September 24, 2015 7:23 PM EDT

  Well, for one Shor never had shrines. You don't worship a dead god. As we saw from some of the older concepts for the Nords, they had a different way of going about things.

  Talos is worshipped because he is a "Twilight" god. A god of the next cycle. A god of things to come. Talos does share aspects of Lorkhan, but also of Akatosh and Magnus. He is all three. That's what makes him so freaky when it comes to gods.

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  September 25, 2015 4:01 AM EDT

  The problem with Todd Howard's quote is that you take it out the hat to help your cause. If we look at the actual quote and what it means for the lore if we take it seriously it raises many uncomfortable questions.

  If what he said was absolute truth we would have to discount any sources not appearing in game. That would be both PGEs, the Improved Emperor's Guide, Arms and Armour of Tamriel, Kyne's Challenge, both Greg Keyes novels, Bounty of Mundus and probably a fair few more. Also, that would discount any sources we now rely on as fact, such as the meanings of the pre-fixes used by the Khajiit, not to mention loads of developer interviews and Loremaster's archive questions which contain great insights into the setting not available in-game. You could then argue that these sources must be "canon" because they have the Bethesda seal of approval on them, but that is not what Todd Howard said and you'd then be putting words in his mouth.

  But let's assume that they do have the Seal of Approval. What does that mean to those oog sources referenced in-game. The Many Headed Talos, for example, is quoted in a game released long after the author of that book left the team. Another is Eight Aedra which is quoted without appearing in-game. Not to mention the painted cows in Skyrim. How about Five Hundred Companions (or thereabouts) Of Ysgrammor the Returned? Then there's the Tower Lore, long relegated to the pseudo lore section of the Archives but proven by time and ESO/Skyrim to be well and truly relevant. What about the Tract of Merid Nunda? Another oog source referenced in-game. Can we assume that all these sources which now appear in game also have the Seal of Approval? Your argument is flawed.

  What is the reason for all of these oog sources by an author you clearly cannot stand (why is it so personal, did he insult you once?) being confirmed in-game time and again? To me the answer is clear: the story of TES didn't suddenly change when he left and continues more or less as originally outlined when he was part of the team. That and the fact Kurt Kuhlmann is more than likely his friend in real life, shared (or maybe even proposed) many of his strange ideas and still works with the company.

  So back to the Talos/Thalmor thing, you can stick your fingers in your ears as much as you want and only time will tell one way or another which road Bethesda take going forward. In the meantime I see no reason not to see the validity of these sources.

  So the facts, as I see them, are that the Thalmor are subjugating Talos worship. We are given a motive in an oog source which is up for debate, but lets remind ourselves of Delphine's line about the Thalmor:

  "When I was young, our leaders became obsessed with the Thalmor threat. They believed that if and when we found a Dragonborn, we would need to protect him/her against the Thalmor. Turns out, we fatally underestimated the Thalmor. They smashed us with ease during the Great War. I was one of the few who escaped. For a long time, all I cared about was staying alive, and taking revenge on the Thalmor when I could. But then the dragons returned. And I remembered that the Blades used to be dragonslayers. And that we were sworn to protect the Dragonborn, the greatest dragonslayer of all."

  Why would the Thalmor care about a figure of legend? Perhaps because they figured out what we all know from Skyrim in that he may well be a Shezarrine and not take kindly to their shit and actually have the power to stop it. Even removing the Shezarrine aspect from the equation Dragonborn are blessed by Akatosh who (we are led to believe) is pretty fond of harmony and will not take kindly to the Thalmor's shit. Just like Talos. 

  If their whole plan was this rather silly idea of trying to make people not believe in Talos by declaring it illegal and arresting people for worshiping him, they're doing an rather piss-poor job of it.

  Well they didn't win the war so maybe it's plan b?

• Paws

  

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  September 25, 2015 4:09 AM EDT

  Indeed, and possibly a holdover-myth of Xarxes?

• Tae-Rai

  

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  September 25, 2015 4:34 AM EDT

  I approve this message 

• Paws

  

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  September 25, 2015 5:06 AM EDT

  Which one, Ryls' or mine? I can't tell by the reply button

  I think it's worth bearing in mind that the Todd Howard interview Ryl brought up was as much a promotion of the (then) upcoming new game TES IV as it was about answering questions. Understandable considering Todd's job. He needed to keep the emphasis on the future, not the past.

  This is from another interview:

  34. The Pocket Guide to the Empire (and its environs) mentions that Cyrodil has some colonies of "true Akaviri", and people with Akaviri facial traits and last names. Will this lore be present in any form in the game?

  The vagaries of Akaviri culture have been all but completely absorbed into the cosmopolitan social structure of Cyrodiil. Holding out hope for some kind of remote pool of "true Akaviris" was perhaps simply wishful thinking on the part of the author of the initial Pocket Guide. A new version is being composed to correct his mistakes and exaggerations.

  As grateful as I am for the 3rd Edition, can I actually take it as official lore despite not being in game? Which is it guys?  

• Rylasasin

  

  • 12 posts
   

  September 25, 2015 5:33 AM EDT

  The problem with Todd Howard's quote is that

  (Snip for space)
  What is the reason for all of these oog sources by an author you clearly cannot stand (why is it so personal, did he insult you once?)
  (Snip for space)

  many of his strange ideas and still works with the company.

  
  Well, I (for once) didn't want to veer off in this direction. And this time I tried my best to keep the Kirk bashing to a complete minimum, but since you brought it up, I might as well. 
  
  Just remember: You started it this time, not me. 
  (Warning: off topic.)
  
  

  What is the reason for all of these oog sources by an author you clearly cannot stand (why is it so personal, did he insult you once?) 

  My problem is two fold.: Kirkbride himself, and his cult. I'll address the former first.

  Problem with Kirkbride has to do with the general attitude he has towards these things. Especially his treatment of any race that isn't human or his pet dunmer. In fact, when you really think about it, his whole attitude is more than a bit ethocentrical.
  
  Oh yes, let's take a potentially interesting faction with a potentially valid point to make depending on your POV, with a history that might make you feel sympathy for them, a race that a lot of players have grown attached to (myself included)...
  ... And turn them all into mustache-twirling cliched comic book "Mythic Dawn MK II" villains that want to blow up the world. And not only that, but write the "ending" to Tes to be where all "teh ebil non humens die and teh humens and dark elves live happilee evar aftar on teh moonz" Way to completely slap High Elf fans right in the face, Kirkie-boy. 

  Not to mention he's an utterly obnoxious Talos fanboy.
  
  Some of it's okay, and some of it makes for good mod material (Specraverse which deals with Magne-Ge, and Wheels of Lull are two of my favorite mods... although I'll admit I don't much care for the latter's plot as much as I do the other stuff in it) But really, that's all it should amount to IMO: Fodder for Modders. Anything beyond that just ruins the series IMO.
  Feel free to call me out on this, as I don't really have a source, but I heard that at one time Kirk even wanted to make Morrowind so you couldn't play as a non-human. Again, don't have a source, but considering everything else about him, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if this was true.

  As for his cult, my problem with them is that they won't shut up and they've got to spam their crap everywhere. How many times have you counted that someone's tried to have a serious discussion about the Thalmor, or Queen Ayrenn, or the Khajiit, or Reman without some Kirkbot coming in and talking about f*ing towers/destroy man conspiracies, or KINMUNE, or Moon Colonies, or Time Traveling Robots as if it were established fact?
  I also love (sarcasm) how utterly two-faced they are about the whole "Canon-Noncanon" thing. They'll convince you hard to believe there's no such thing as canon, then they'll turn around and try to insist that C0dA and everything Kirkbride writes is completely true and shouldn't be questioned. IE: "There's no such thing as canon... unless Kirkbride writes it. then it's 100% canon and should not be questioned." 
  Not to mention it really diminishes the rest of the contributions of the other contributers to the TES Series. 
  Seriously they've already ruined /r/teslore (have you seen the place? It's atrocious.) and the Beth Boards.
  
  Hope that answers your question. Again, I'd like to point out that you started it this time, not me.

  (On topic starts here)

  Why would the Thalmor care about a figure of legend? Perhaps because they figured out what we all know from Skyrim in that he may well be a Shezarrine and not take kindly to their shit and actually have the power to stop it. Even removing the Shezarrine aspect from the equation Dragonborn are blessed by Akatosh who (we are led to believe) is pretty fond of harmony and will not take kindly to the Thalmor's shit. Just like Talos. 

  Or it could be because the Dragonborns have a consistent record of causing troubles for the Dominion, and because you the player especially are pretty much assumed to be working against the Dominion right from the outset and never given a choice to do otherwise even as an Altmer? (Which I think is part of the reason Fallout NV's quest writing > TES's writing, btw.)
  
  And what exactly does Delphine mean by "Protect him" anyway? Protect him from assassination... or recruitment?
  
  I tend to operate on a form of Occam's Razor: never attribute metaphysics and legend to that which can be adequately explained by simple politics and history.

• Karver the Lorc

  

  • 649 posts
   

  September 25, 2015 5:42 AM EDT

  

• Veloth the Prophet

  

  • 641 posts
   

  September 25, 2015 5:50 AM EDT

  I am utter confused by your post (rant?) Kirkbride is the one (nearly the only one) that is actually giving the Altmer\Thalmor a sympathetic background and goal. I have to ask, have you actually read Kirkbride's C0DA? Because it seems you are mistaken about a lot of things, all the men die, the Altmer return to aethereus as gods after a badass eons long battle with the numidium and the Dunmer and Khajiit hightail it to the moons. So a human-fanboy I hardly think so.

• Rylasasin

  

  • 12 posts
   

  September 25, 2015 6:03 AM EDT

  I am utter confused by your post (rant?) Kirkbride is the one (nearly the only one) that is actually giving the Altmer\Thalmor a sympathetic background and goal.

  "Destroy the world" is not sympathetic, I don't care how much bullshit metaphysics you try to throw into it.
  

  I have to ask, have you actually read Kirkbride's C0DA?

  Couldn't get past the first entry before giving up on how awful it was, actually. Oh well, that's what Wikis are for.
  

  Because it seems you are mistaken about a lot of things, all the men die,

  And that makes the Thalmor sympathetic again... how? Also, Vivec creates new men.
  

  the Altmer return to aethereus as gods

  They're erased from existence. Numidium kills them.

• Veloth the Prophet

  

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  September 25, 2015 8:00 AM EDT

  "Destroy the world" is a complete simplification of what the Altmers goals are, read up on their lore, they want to return to aetherius! They are not destroying the world, they are unmaking creation so that it never happened in the first place, so that they will always have been gods.

  So in other words you are talking about stuff you don't actually know about.

  Whats sympathetic about the Altmer\Thalmor is that Kirkbride made them in to a race who was ripped from heaven by trickery and chained to a harsh uncaring painful existence surrounded by ignorant children. Said ignorant children actively worship a god that not only tricked them to start with but also his reincarnation strengthens the shackles that bind them to hell. They then try to wipe them out with a magic nuke that they have to fight non-stop for eons!

  Also the New Man has nothing to do with humans... it's talking about a new Ameranth.

  Another oversimplification. The Altmer are not erased. The Numidium uses the ancestroscythe on them. Ancestor. The Numidium reverts the Altmer back in to their ancestors aka the et'Ada.

  Kirkbride's whole idea for Elder Scrolls is for it to be the opposite of the Lord of the Rings, instead of it being the coming of the Age of Man it's instead the Fall of Man and the Rise of Mer. He said the Altmer will win in the end no matter what.

• Karver the Lorc

  

  • 649 posts
   

  September 25, 2015 9:36 AM EDT

  "Kirkbride's whole idea for Elder Scrolls is for it to be the opposite of the Lord of the Rings, instead of it being the coming of the Age of Man it's instead the Fall of Man and the Rise of Mer. He said the Altmer will win in the end no matter what."

  This makes me like Thalmor even more. I mean, if you want something get done - like eradicating Men - than you certainly need some radical group to be in charge.

• Paws

  

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  September 25, 2015 12:44 PM EDT

  Well, I (for once) didn't want to veer off in this direction. And this time I tried my best to keep the Kirk bashing to a complete minimum, but since you brought it up, I might as well.

  Ha, you can't help yourself but have a dig. Remember the below? It seems you're blaming MK for everything, but what about the other writers?

  There's zero evidence for it (even for a "small/rogue sect" let alone the whole org,) outside of Kirkbride's work. And Kirkbride... well... the less said about him (let alone his fans,) the better.

  So to follow your example and keep this on topic, it seems we have a different view on how to approach the Thalmor's goals. Those of us who accept the MK quote at face value see things in game which support it while those who reject it look for other explanations. That's cool and I never have an issue with that, only those latter who vocally dismiss the former.

  I want to examine your Occam's Razor a bit more. Lets start with this:

  You see, at the close of the 2nd era, Tiber Septim made a peace treaty with the Aldmeri Dominion. Then not even the next day, he used Numidium to basically mass murder millions of Altmer simply so he could add the dominion to his kingdom.

  What is the sources for this? I'm not disputing it but curious if you can back it up with certainty. It doesn't suffice to simply quote Vix as if his word is law. Also, how about this one below?

  And if you think it ended there, guess again. Even in the fourth era, Talo's followers continued his legacy with Proxy wars, while the Blades (who coincidentally happen to be Talo's biggest fanboys, surpassing even Ulfric and his ilk) commited a great many acts of Terrorism. Something the dominion put up with for a whole 149 years before they finally decided they were sick of the Empire's and the Blade's shenanigans and decided to take the battle to them instead.

  As far as I can tell this is just pure conjecture based off of Vix's own conjecture (yes guys, he did it too). The details of the Falinesti incident are as vague as the details on the Thalmor purges. Assuming it was an act of terrorism is just one way of looking at it but remember the only source is from the Thalmor point of view. So back it up with  good argument instead of saying "well duh, of course Thalmor are being dicks coz the Empire were dicks to them first."

  And what exactly does Delphine mean by "Protect him" anyway? Protect him from assassination... or recruitment?

  Too thin Rooster, too thin