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Philosophical Debate: Caesar's Legion

    • 485 posts
    June 24, 2015 11:51 AM EDT

    I was surfing the net recently and came across a interesting old opinion piece on Caesar's Legion in 'The Escapist'. To my surprise this guy actually supports the legion in just about all of his play through's. Here's the excerpt from the discussion thread:

    Fallout is one of my favorite series. The current apple of my eye is New Vegas, partly because, as Yahtzee would say, it's a water cooler game. It's fun to talk about what you did, who you killed, where you went, etc.

    It seems that a lot of people I talk to are shocked that I always side with the Legion, being that they see the NCR as the 'good guys' and the Legion as the 'bad guy.' I don't think it's that cut and dry.

    First of all, most of the Mojave has been fed tons of NCR propaganda. "Here we are, here to unite the wastes! All lets all converge and stand together under the NCR flag!" they say. What they mean though is "Join us or we'll mark you as hostile and wipe you out." As we can see from the Khans, they don't really give a shit about people. There are plenty of people across the wastes who'll tell you of terrible things NCR troops have done. They want land and power, just like any empire. At least the Legion is up-front about it. And that intimidation is what helps keep Legion territory safe. Unlike the NCR, who spreads themselves incredibly thin with poorly-trained, poorly-armed volunteers, Legion takes care of their own. I mean, if you were a bandit, where would you rather set up shop, the territory that says "Cross us and we'll arrest you and throw you in jail!" or the one that says "Cross us and you'll be crucified and your wife and children will be sold into slavery?" Legion ain't nothin' to fuck with.

    That segways nicely into my next point; slavery. Yeah, it sucks. Yeah, it's morally wrong. But it's something of a necessary evil IMHO. I mean, for one thing, free labor. But more importantly, the threat of slavery is a powerful bargaining chip. When the Legion conquers your territory, you can either give your children up to be slaves or soldiers. Any parent would pick the latter, thus growing the Legion's powerful army.

    I don't want to sound like I'm pro-slavery IRL. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am for it in the fictional land of Fallout though. The NCR wants to rebuild the old world as it was. Sort of like, if society was on level five, and the war knocked it down to one, NCR wants to rebuild at level five. That's just not going to happen. Civilizations have to start at the bottom and build their way up, and the Legion realizes it. They may seem evil on the surface, but I think they're the best hope for the Mojave. The NCR is bloated, corrupt, and incompetent. As my dad would say, they couldn't find their ass with both hands.

    Personally, nothing outside of morbid curiosity will ever compel me to support Caesar's legion. Id rather destroy the Mojave Wastes myself than hand it over to those savages. But this guy makes a rather compelling argument, or at least the closest thing to a sound pro legion argument I've yet to read.

    So what are your  opinion regarding the merits of the legion? Are they just plain villainous, or is there more to them? Would the wastes be better off with Caesar running the show? I'm most interested in hearing from those who support the legion. I want to know why, or rather how could you. In any case, let's hear your thoughts. 

    You can view the original discussion here:

    http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.389855-Why-I-fight-for-Caesars-Legion-in-Fallout?page=1

    • 485 posts
    June 24, 2015 12:07 PM EDT

    First off Talos is a false god. Everyone knows that...

    Im going to put on my devil's advocate hat on for this one: Its clear you have no love of the legion. I assume you tend to support their bitter rivals, the NCR. If thats the case, what makes you think the NCR can do any better running the wastes? 

    • 1217 posts
    June 24, 2015 12:37 PM EDT

    I understand wanting  to play as the Legion. But trying to justify it is pointless, to me, and this certainly wasn't convincing.

    He spends a third of it talking about the NCR, with numerous contradictions and double standards. First, right off the bat, propaganda. And Caesar's Legion isn't brutally mindwashed? Then he talks about NCR wiping people out, only to later say that wiping people out is the Legion's shtick(and citing the Khans? A culture of drug dealers, who the Legion also doesn't care about, and will immediately enslave after the war). No examples of the people who will tell you about the terrible things the NCR has done, either.

    Editor nitpick: Segue

    Then it basically continues it's tradition of justifying the Legion's evil while vilifying the NCR, ultimately ending with: "We had to have slaves to get to the civilized society, so that's what we need again," and a couple of random quotes from NPCs instead of reason.

    TL;DR - Ultimately a weak justification, in my book. There's nothing wrong with saying "I want to play an evil character this time around," in an RPG, but there's no point in pretending it's anything else.

    • 485 posts
    June 24, 2015 1:25 PM EDT
    Alas we arrive at the reason for this discussion. The dudes arguement ultimately sucks but is still the closest thing to a coherent argument. I figured if anyone had the talent to perform the linguistic gymnastics necessary to make the legion out to be anything other than textbook villains, they could be found here.
    • 338 posts
    June 24, 2015 1:34 PM EDT

    I think you're going to be hard-pressed to find anyone with the linguistic gymnastics (beautiful phrase by the way) who also supports the savage, bloodthirsty ways of the Legion. For God's sake, they crucify people. The NCR might have had it's share of atrocities, but from what I gather from Boone's dialogue, they didn't realize Bitter Springs was where the women and children lived when they attacked; they thought it was just another bunker. And, while they did kill said women and children, the Red Berets did call in to HQ to confirm the order to fire. The legion on the other hand just brutally kills or enslaves everybody.

    • 485 posts
    June 24, 2015 1:40 PM EDT
    At another time I'd like to read what your justification is for comparing the ncr to neo-nazis. For now I'm curious to know what would you do differently than the ncr or the legion. Actually the more interesting question is what could you do? You're just one courier. The ncr has vast resources. The legion, though primitive, also has resources.
    • 338 posts
    June 24, 2015 1:44 PM EDT

    He has the "I'm not an NPC" boon. 

    • 485 posts
    June 24, 2015 1:54 PM EDT
    Oh I know it's going To be hard. Between their brutal tactics, the slavery, and the raging mysoginy, it's going to quite difficult to justify what this group does. But humor me. Perhaps next time I do this I'll work with a more naunced subject.
    • 1217 posts
    June 24, 2015 1:57 PM EDT

    They have...peace...in their...territory?

    • 338 posts
    June 24, 2015 2:01 PM EDT

    Who are you, Darth Sidious?

    Peace through oppression isn't true peace. So you're going to be hard pressed to even make that argument when trying to speak of Caesar's Legion in a positive light.

    • 1217 posts
    June 24, 2015 2:17 PM EDT

    I was being sarcastic. It would take some serious brainwashing to call what Caesar's territory has or what they offer "peace."

    • 338 posts
    June 24, 2015 2:20 PM EDT

    Exactly. They're the bad guys. Where NCR is like "eh" we do bad things but we're trying to be good.

    • 394 posts
    June 24, 2015 2:48 PM EDT

    Amo Amas Amat Amamus Amatus Amant. That's about all the Latin I know sorry., and I'm not even sure about that.

     Apart from place names like Chester, Worcester etc. And animal and plant names  And Roman Catholic stuff. And legal terms. And Cogito Ergo Sum, Quod Erat Demonstrandum, Veni Vidi Vinci. And Julius, Nero , Caesar. 

    Actually I know quite a bit! Ask me if you need to know anything ;)

    • 1913 posts
    June 24, 2015 2:58 PM EDT

    I actually believe the Legion is a fine side (morally wrong, but in terms of effectiveness it is good)

    • 1217 posts
    June 24, 2015 3:01 PM EDT

    Effectiveness really isn't the question, though.

    • 394 posts
    June 24, 2015 3:23 PM EDT

    If you're playing as a version of yourself yes, but not if you're rolepaying, and Fallout and TES games are great for that

    • 485 posts
    June 24, 2015 3:25 PM EDT
    It's interesting that you mention that. I think among the most interesting thing to do in a roleplayjng game like fallout is to make decisions and hold firmly to beliefs you could even begin to agree with in real life.

    It gives your gameplay some interesting perspectives. Sometimes you'll cringe or even feel sickened by what your moral opposite would do within a virtual world.
    • 1913 posts
    June 24, 2015 4:08 PM EDT

    Well then... never mind :p

    • 1913 posts
    June 24, 2015 4:11 PM EDT

    Well, that isn't exactly true... I'm against all forms of violence (well, causing said violence) but in Fallout I have no qualms capping someone in the face.

    • 1217 posts
    June 24, 2015 4:21 PM EDT

    I would immediately point you to the Khans and the Twisted Hairs (and who knows how many other tribes) as evidence that that notions is BS. Being known for brutality does not make them honest by any stretch of the imagination. NCR's trademark atrocity is Bitter Springs, which doesn't compare with anything the Legion has done.

    • 1217 posts
    June 24, 2015 4:33 PM EDT

    Not sure what you mean.

    • 1217 posts
    June 24, 2015 4:55 PM EDT

    Mmm, I don't really think so. It's just a question of where you are in the chain of communication. You don't know what happened to the Twisted Hairs until Ulysses gives you the whole story, just like you don't know what happened to the Khans at Bitter Springs until Boone tells you. It's not some kind of coverup. People just don't want to talk about it, because it's a big black mark on their history. Caesar's version of that was setting Joshua Graham on fire and throwing him into a canyon.

    • 485 posts
    June 24, 2015 5:02 PM EDT
    Let's kick morality to the curb for a moment and look at this from another angle.

    The ncr can barely hold on to the territory they do have in the wastes. Add to that their propensity for driving away any possible allies in their quest to stake their claim on everything they lay eyes on. The khans and brotherhood are good examples. They're stretched thin and they know it, yet they persist.

    The legion does not hold on to territory as tightly. Despite that their trade routes are the safest. Nobody with a functioning brain would dare fuck with a legion trade route. Merchants under the legions employ enjoy hassle free travel. The ncr on the other hand have their hands full with not only occupying all that territory, but fending off not just the legion, but raiders, and the khans as well.

    The point I'm trying to make is the ncr cannot sustain itself out there. Life under the legion would be brutal at first but perhaps peaceful once order is regained. Even if hey won, the death toll will have bee too demoralizing to its citizens back in the rear. Driving the legion out will be a hollow victory, and the wastes a lost cause. We already know desertion is a serious issue in ncr ranks, an issue the legion does not share. The legion need only let the ncr exhaust itself before coming in for the kill.
    • 1217 posts
    June 24, 2015 5:44 PM EDT

    Morality is inextricably connected to the issue, because it's directly tied to the peace of the area.

    Are we removing the player character from the equation? Because then it's a question of "Could they accomplish what I do for them without me?" If yes, either party is equally viable. We know the NCR can maintain the Mojave, because that's one thing that can happen if you beat the game. Having the NCR present is still a net gain in the region, even if they are spread thin, because there's no one else there to do what they do, and they do it without enslaving the populace.

    The Legion may certainly establish something peaceful and orderly, as I'm sure other regimes in history have done. That doesn't mean the living conditions are better, or even good or desireable, though. And would people even have the freedom to leave if they wanted to? Peace, imho, is not enough as a qualifier for who is the better choice.

    House is a non-issue. If the player character makes no appearance, Benny takes the chip to Caesar, like an idiot, and it either remains in his hands indefinitely, or he successfully uses it to destroy the bunker. Either way, any of House's military might is neutralized.

    • 1217 posts
    June 24, 2015 5:48 PM EDT

    I staunchly disagree. You'd be aware of some facets of the culture, and that many Legion enemies end up slaves. You would never know whether or not you were destined for that fate yourself. That much is in the vanilla game. They aren't even free of the politics. There may not be the same jockeying for top office as in the NCR, but with Caesar's eventual death (sooner, rather than later), the wars of succession are bound to follow.