Forums » Elder Scrolls

Mods for money? Would you or wouldn't you?

    • 1913 posts
    April 23, 2015 5:45 PM EDT

    So... What are y'all opinions on this? Are you for it? Against it?

    • 1483 posts
    April 23, 2015 6:57 PM EDT

    This'll render Steam Workshop pointless. People will just get the mods from Nexus for free. So unless you'll make something extremely awesome and specifically restrict it to Workshop, only then will you generate some profit. Will it be worth the time and effort? I don't think so.

    • 1467 posts
    April 23, 2015 7:00 PM EDT

    I'm hoping that it means that the quality modders can get paid for their mods, change into a full-time job and create bigger and better mods for me. You'll see idiots who post mods for ridiculous prices but I wouldn't be surprised if top quality modders end up having "premium editions" for their mods. Release one for cheaper or free of charge and then release a paid version. 

    Overall I think it's a good thing and hopefully people will be smart about it but that's up to individuals, goodness knows I'd pay for some of the best mods out there and if it can support these people creating them for me then good on them (if it's purely steam credit then maybe not so much).

    • 130 posts
    April 23, 2015 7:01 PM EDT

    I think some mods deserve support, but most really don't. I also don't like the idea of looking up reviews for a mod everytime I see one with a cost.

    The other problem with it is more practical. I don't think such a cost system would work, especially for an old game. There are plenty of up to date mods that have been around for a long time and downloaded by thousands of people. I doubt too many authors will convert their mods to cost money, and the ones that do will probably make little due to the hundreds of other mods out there that are still free.

    Also, I can see this running into copyright problems. People making money modifying a copyrighted game sounds like it could lead to a lawsuit.

    I won't buy mods. I think you should donate to mod makers if you find a mod really good, but you shouldn't be forced to pay for them. I don't want more DLC. If mods costing money becomes widespread, I'll just stick with the console version of games in future.

    • 116 posts
    April 23, 2015 7:35 PM EDT
    I would think only the large mods that overhaul the game drastically should even consider charging users.

    Some mods that already exist that would IMO qualify would be mods like Skyre, Civil War Overhaul, and those ones that make you eat/sleep and condition yourself for the weather of Skyrim. But even these if they had a price tag should come very cheaply (under $5)

    Mods that I could think of that I'd like to see and would consider paying for would be something that seperates armor pieces (cheat piece, leg armor, pauldrons, etc etc) while adding unique accessories for a more unique diverse Skyrim. A mod that overhauls smithing and alchemy to more realistic ways. Mods like these
    • 144 posts
    April 23, 2015 9:25 PM EDT

    I agree wholeheartedly on the sticking to console games if this becomes all encompassing. What would be the reason to play on PC at that point?

    • 1467 posts
    April 23, 2015 9:31 PM EDT

    Mods will get better. The little modders will either not bother or they will not have mods that people download. If nobody downloads the mod then nobody downloads it, the modder will then (most likely) either lower or remove the price of the mod and then people will download it.

    The money is only going to really come into play with really good Mods (and Trolls of course). These people who dedicate hundreds of hours (if not more) into their mods will earn money off of the mods and then continue to make better mods simply because if their mods are good enough then they will get money from them, maybe enough to work less on another job.

    I think it'll go down the same path as Youtube did (well slightly different, but very similar), with people not seeing them as people with actual jobs because it's all on a Computer and they're self-employed. 

  • April 23, 2015 10:06 PM EDT

    Pardon my French, but I think this is a fucking terrible idea and those involved in the conception of this money-grubbing scheme should be shot. *ahem, starting rant*

    Should modders get more recognition and respect for that they do? Of course they should. Most of them do really fantastic work and become minor celebrities in this community and I understand their frustration. I really do. But this was not created by Steam to support modders. Most of the money (75%) goes to Valve, while the modder will only receive a nickle of it if their mod makes over $100. Will this encourage more, better modders to come out of the shadows or charge for their mods? Absolutely, unequivocally not. Because no one will pay for them. The bulk of people who use mods have huge modlists (unsurprisingly, few such people are on the Skyrim Blog) are the people who download multiple mods on a daily basis, those who consume the most and are most active in the modding community. This is the target audience. I could easily blow $20 a night on mod testing with this system. Would I? No. And I know very few mod users who are for it. Those who are typically have very small modding lists and this would not particularly impact them.

    If the Nexus introduced a YouTube-ish feature, where you watched a few adds before downloading it where the proceeds went to the modder, I would be fine with it. They already have donate buttons. The point is that mods make the game, for me and most modders, but to pay for a 4 year old game that is cheaper than some of these mods is ridiculous and not honouring mod authors or even appealing to their desire to be recognized and paid for their work. It's like being paid for writing Harry Potter fanfiction or having PPV builds (don't get ideas, Emer).

    A few notable modders (Chesko and isoku) as well as others endorse the project with this bitter frustration, but we're entering a dangerous territory once money enters the equation. What about InsanitySorrow? Tons of people and mods use his assets for free, but what if he decides to make his mods "for pay"? Truly, this works for any popular modder who makes community resources. Loads more mods use FINIS or Apachi hair, what'll happen if they go to pay? Will they get a slice of this already small pie? What about mods that import or borrow textures or scripts from other games? Also, how would anyone monitor this? Would Valve hire a few hundred monkeys to run through the scripting and textures, to make sure that all the assets are "unique" and not plagiarizing others' work?

    I'm hoping this will crash and burn, but there's a part of me that's scared that this is just the beginning and PC gamers will be forced to put up with this as more and more modders feel the lure of promised money for their hobby (sweet gig if you can get it) and leave the free sites.

    P.S. Anyone remember the dark days of the Horse Armor DLC? Yeah...

    • 1467 posts
    April 23, 2015 10:20 PM EDT

    I didn't see that bit on Modder's not getting money unless it's over $100, that's some bullshit right there. The idea is good but I guess when you get into the deeper bits of info (that wasn't in the article was it, I swear I'm not that blind yet) that's when it starts looking shadier and shadier. 

    • 87 posts
    April 23, 2015 11:25 PM EDT

    There is the Nexus, which already outclasses the Workshop in every possible way. No, I do not support the ability to charge for mods; it seems an insult to a community that has lasted such a long time.

    • 189 posts
    April 24, 2015 12:15 AM EDT

    Agreed on all counts. Another issue: What about updates and compatibility patches? What if you pay for a mod, but it doesn't work with another mod you're using? Steam's current terms of use say that, if this happens to you, your best option is to leave a comment politely asking the mod author to create a compatibility patch. In other words, customers here have no recourse, and if you pay for something that doesn't work, you're S.O.L.

    Another scenario would be that a mod you download works for a few months, but then breaks because of an official patch or an update to another mod you're using. You've paid for a mod, presumably with the right to use it in perpetuity, yet you do not get what you paid for. This sounds like very shaky ground to me, and even if Valve's legal team has justification for the current terms, they certainly don't bode well as far as customer satisfaction, PR, and support go. All of which have been issues for Valve/Steam of late, even disregarding this particular matter.

    I absolutely feel that modders should have the right to be compensated for their work. But this system seems silly and ill-conceived, and I think that it will lead to some major issues and ultimately not pan out.

  • April 24, 2015 1:36 AM EDT
    Maybe if it worked like patreon,then yeah it would be a cool system.I do feel that the modders deserve some kind of compensation, and it would only increase the quality of mods, and hell, a lot of mods wouldn't have to be halted because the modder can't afford to continue their craft. Though, if they do get paid, then there will be an unending supply of DMCA claims. I also feel that Steam is taking far too large of a cut, 75% is just outrageous considering all they are doing is hosting the service. Which let's be honest, doesn't cost a whole lot. This is one big mess.
    • 1483 posts
    April 24, 2015 6:19 AM EDT
    • 1483 posts
    April 24, 2015 7:48 AM EDT

    I suppose you can send the build to other members via PM, provided they pay for it  Don't think you'll make much though 

    • 622 posts
    April 24, 2015 7:52 AM EDT

    Next thing you know, we'll be charging for builds... Skyrim Blog Gold edition! 

    • 622 posts
    April 24, 2015 7:56 AM EDT

    Done. Now on, you'll be paying me %5 per build you view :D Will also accept cookies as payment!

    • 1483 posts
    April 24, 2015 8:00 AM EDT

    Ads are different. We can, for example, use ads on TSB and give a portion of income to the most active members (not that it'll ever happen). Clicking on the ads does not take away money too. But paid content is different. You'll have to pay to get access to a build/mod. Many people will be against it, modders and users included. Just take a look at the link I posted above. 

    • 4 posts
    April 24, 2015 8:44 AM EDT

    If you guys actually think quality of mods will improve with this, you're sorely mistaken. If anything, they'll go down, flooding the market with small skeleton mods then adding a bunch of other mods are requirements. Whenever you start something like this, money making becomes the concern. This'll do nothing but kill quality mods on the workshop.

    It's a good thing that Steam have made it so incredibly exploitative that most will realise it's not worth their time. 75% commission starting from 400 USD upwards. That means the first 400 go directly to Steam. If you make 399.99 USD, you don't get anything.

    Make no mistake people, this is exploitation, you will not be helping the modders, you'll just be growing steam's wallet and maybe, just maybe, the modders will get the few extra pennies. 

    Don't support this, if you want to help the modders donate to them directly. My only concern is that if Steam makes this viable then even the dedicated modders of  the past will go into a cash cow frenzy and start releasing mods in separate DLCs (like every game developer ever is doing).

    There really is no upside, and no one should be supporting this at all. App store charges 30% commission, and that's considered robbery. Freaking 75% with the first 400 claimed, HA! No thank you.

    First they went and turned the industry to into a massive money grab with no inventive ounce left in them, now they want to take away the only thing that made PC gaming worth anything, and gave hope to the creative future of games. Screw it, i'm on the verge of uninstalling steam. I've given that idiot Gaben enough money.

    • 30 posts
    April 24, 2015 9:06 AM EDT

    Hmm... seems like there are 2 sides of the coin here. But let's start with the facts shall we?

    • Skyrim is a 4 year old game
    • Vanilla skyrim has outdated mechanics and graphics

    Enter the mods

    Mods overall the following:

    • Graphics
    • Mechanics
    • Texture
    • Immersion

    The thing about mods is that they have always been free... created solely out of the love and passion of an individual (or group of, in the case of luftaaran and other such big mods) and shared with the community.

    Introducing monetization mechnics for such bog mods like luftaaran, skyblivion and even to a certain extent, quest mods like moon & star and even falskaar would help with the improvement and maintainence of said mods.

    However, echoing and agreeing with the netizens of the interweb, it would be better via a medium like pateron or even direct donation to show support.

    What valve & Steam are doing does not seem to benefit modders and certainly the modding community at large. Chesko's pull out of the fishing animation mod is just proof of it.

    Whilst i think a well modded skyrim can ensure longevity of the game even modern contenders and even surpass them (Dragon age inquisition: yeah, looking at you...), this is not the way to do it.

    Introduce a mechanic like donation or what pateron is doing or if any modders do visit this site and visit this page, then yeah, let us paypal donate to you.

    Cause i would gladly donate to the creation and support of mods like Frostfall, Hunterboen, Wet & Cold, Ineed, Realistic Needs & Diseases, various ENB creators, TK combat, Duel combat realism, kurtee bandage,Falskaaer, moon and star and other such mods that increase the immersion, content, mechanics and playability of the game than corporate giants to want to rip off the modding community.

    And just for the record, my skyrim is modded so much, that i didn't find the need to play any online games (been a wow player for long and ESO beta tester... account idle cause there is no immersion in both) or gain new games like dragon age inquisition or shadow of mordor.

    A well modded skyrim truly outshines and surpasses most of the current games. Please do not destroy it bethesda.... you will be ruining the love and adulation millions across the world have come to associate TES with.

    • 30 posts
    April 24, 2015 10:17 AM EDT

    Hey Ben,

    Yeah, true enough... my view on this is from a PC point of view, cause.. mods.

    But seriously, graphics are only one part of the concerns i suppose. Some console games with probably better graphics of current open world RPG nature:

    • Dragon Age Inquisition
    • Shadow of Mordor
    • The Beta released Witcher 3: Wild Hunt

    The witcher 3 looks sick btw, without mods!

    On the topic of graphics alone, here are the components as how i see it:

    • Facial Textures
    • Environment Textures and details

    Facial Textures

    The current console based vanilla skyrim sort of has this weird problem with Blocky faces and noses. It's like the dev's were lazy with this feature. Thankfully, mod authors decided to fix this, hence the various texture packs.

    Also, body structures are more fittingly altered through mods. In vanilla skyrim, Mjoll, Lydia and Even non battle armored lasses like Olfina greymane are sorta doing the male walking model thing.

    With Mod's that can be used to change the body structure (UNP, CBBE) to reflect the true strength a feminine warrior, this modification bring modification to a different level altogether.

    Environment Texture and details

    Mods like SIMM and texture replacer mods for trees, rocks, waters and even the weather in general. Vanilla has some nice angles and screenshots, i agree. However, to take it to the next level and be on par with the games i mentioned above, Skyrim modding helps unleash the full potential of the game.

    Once again, console gamers have got some cool stuff that can be achieved that cannot be obtained by PC players (ie: Game pad button control for left handed weapon swapping, etc)

    However, without mods. especially the immersive mods... games just don't feel like games no more. Nothing breaks immersion more than standing in the rain and not having the ground have splashes of water, not feeling damp or wet, or swimming bares assed in the frozen lakes and not suffering from some form of... consequence.

    Even the game killed in the wild can be more realistically realized by mods. Vanilla looting of a wolf is just some meant and... coins? (how the heck did it get there?}

    with a mod like hunterborn, i can skin the wolf, harvest it's body for ingredients and even cut it's meat to cook unique "wild game" food.

    None of the above i know are present in any of the games i mentioned nor MMO's 

    • 4 posts
    April 24, 2015 11:23 AM EDT

    You can't compare the two payment systems, they  are totally separate. Youtube =/= micro-transaction money. Valve are pulling 75% off of a price tag that won't peak over 5$, and for the biggest mods won't peak over 15$. They keep the first 400$ the mod makes as well. You're left with minimal returns on anything that you put out. Put more effort in, you don't get that time's worth back, and at that point you might as well be doing it for free. If you want to make anything real out of it, you split it into DLCs and ship them. Now I'm not saying the modders that already make some of the best mods out there are going to up and change, but they will be inclined to change the way they handle their mods. Others, in fact the vast majority of new comers, will pounce on the opportunity to flood the shop with mods full of 'potential' that will never see it realised. Don't compare this shop to something as different as Youtube. Compare it instead to the next closest thing, the Steam Greenlight. Has it given as some good indie games? Sure. Is the vast majority useless crap that the devs will lure you into buying and drag out development until everyone's forgotten about it? Yes. And that's exactly what's going to happen. 

    If this was anything other than a money grab, I'd probably support it, because modders get to decide to charge for their work if they deem it worthy, and that's their choice. But this is nothing but exploitation. What's more, it's going to interfere with the fundamentals of what made the modding community so great. That ability to share and build off of each other in the sole interest of helping the community made for a unique occurence, now that's going to go out the window. Chesko's fishing mod has already been pulled out of the shop, because Fore (author of FNIS, a mod tool from which basically every skeleton/animation/pose mod is made) called him out for using his work. Back when everyone worked with the understanding that modders modded for the community, that would have never been an issue.

    Fudgemuppet provides an entertainment service, and if their quality drops their money drops. A mod isn't the same thing, there's no obligation to keep the quality up, their money doesn't stop if the mod doesn't meet expectations. Who's there to act as quality control? Who's going to test the mods and ensure compatibility? What if I download a mod and it breaks my game relative to my mod order, and I had no way of knowing? I had to pay for this beforehand... By contrast I don't have to pay Fudgemuppet anything. I don't have anything to lose if they start releasing crap, they do. I can, with no detriment to me, stop viewing their product. Am I going to get guaranteed refunds on mods that don't meet my expectations? No, of course not. You see where I'm going with this? That's just a very bad comparison.

    This whole thing is all bad. If you weren't on console and ran 200 mods that consistently had to be tweaked and/or kept up with the broader modding community, you'd feel the same way too. Assuming you don't use Steam, I'll just tell you that this is only part of a general trend of monetisation with the guise of helping the community. Once Valve used to be the last hope for PC Gamers, proving that you could release great F2P games and make money without it being P2W (DotA 2, TF2) now they're jumping on trends in order to make a quick buck. EA 2 incoming.

    (It's not likely big modders are going to tank quality, but if they actually have an interest in making money, because of how exploitative Valve is being, they're going to need to split their work and make us buy every expansion. If they don't, then they might as well be releasing it for free because they're going to be making chump change. Imagine if tomorrow youtube took another 50% of Fudgemuppet's ad money, would those ads be doing anything? They'd be working off of donations and sponsorships. If ads were the only source of money, they'd be forced to split every build into 2/3 parts just to keep up.)

    • 4 posts
    April 24, 2015 11:48 AM EDT

    See now I feel like an idiot. I didn't want to insult your taste in youtubers so I didn't add the fact that those two have no concept of Character Building at all... Should've known better.

    Can you tell this whole thing has me on edge? :P

    • 1913 posts
    April 24, 2015 4:17 PM EDT
    What makes this worse? This works on a refund policy where if the mod isn't to your liking or doesn't work, you have a 24 hour refund period where you can ask the creator for a refund... The problem with this is if the person say doesn't see this message or just "MISSED IT" then the customer is not legally obligated to obtain a refund... So... Yeah.. Issue there...
    • 1439 posts
    April 24, 2015 5:05 PM EDT

    It depends, if the mod is big enough it could be DLC, like Faalskarr or something like some of Trainwiz's quest mods, then I wuld pay for it

  • April 24, 2015 7:08 PM EDT
    Passion project or not,someones time is always worth money.Look at it like this,if mods cost money, people will vote with their wallet. That way,the good mods will be separated from the bad.