Forums » Elder Scrolls

Death of a Traitor: Roggvir

    • 1467 posts
    March 18, 2015 4:22 PM EDT

    Roggvir the guard, one of the few characters we see in this game actually be executed, his crime was allowing Ulfric Stormcloak to escape the city after the killing of High King Torygg. So Roggvir, traitorous scum, or simply following orders from a Jarl? Responsible for the killing of High King Torygg or simply a pawn in the great game of life?

    Also something to talk about is the people's reaction to his execution, outright disgust even though he was considered a good man by many.

    • 268 posts
    March 18, 2015 4:24 PM EDT

    When you play the Game of Thrones, you win or you die...

    • 627 posts
    March 18, 2015 4:26 PM EDT

    The common folk care not for the games of the Nobles

    I'm pretty sure that that isn't the proper quote, but it's been a while and I can't be stuffed checking.

    • 1217 posts
    March 18, 2015 4:27 PM EDT
    I think there's a question mark needed somewhere in there.
    • 11 posts
    March 18, 2015 4:31 PM EDT

    I personally think Roggvir was falsely accused. I remember reading somewhere (cannot remember if it was on the blog or on the Elder Scrolls Wiki) that he was just doing his job, and had no clue of Ulfric's intentions. It was only bad luck that he was caught opening the gate for him on both fronts.

    • 1467 posts
    March 18, 2015 4:32 PM EDT

    You can have two 

    • 8 posts
    March 18, 2015 7:05 PM EDT

    "When one expects something to be fair, they get the opposite"

    - CrazedAcension, 2015

    Honestly I think that Roggvir was not given a truly fair trial and immediately sent to the block after being discovered and put on the list. Anyone get it? 

    • 1217 posts
    March 18, 2015 7:08 PM EDT

    Responsible for the killing of High King Torygg or simply a pawn in the great game of life?

    There's no way he can be held responsible for the High King's death. He can, however, bear responsibility for the civil war that follows Ulfric's escape, and the lives lost in it. As for whether or not he deserves it, it's really hard to say, particularly without knowing how much he knew about the circumstances of the duel. How much could he know, if he was at the gate? Unless he knew Ulfric's intentions before the Jarl even went to the Blue Palace. If he was involved to that degree, it makes perfect sense that the Imperials would execute him.

    • 1217 posts
    March 18, 2015 7:17 PM EDT

    Is there evidence of any kind of trial system even existing in Skyrim? I don't think that's how they really handle crime.

    • 1467 posts
    March 18, 2015 7:24 PM EDT

    Did Roggvir not allow Ulfric passage both in and out of Solitude? That was always what I'd gotten out of the whole thing and if that is the truth then he could technically be held slightly responsible, if he simply let him out then he is responsible for barely anything. You could then say that everyone living in Solitude was responsible for the Civil War.

    Another thing to consider is that Ulfric can't have been chased out of Solitude, I think at least one Imperial Soldier, not to mention a Solitude Guard could have hit him with an arrow, he isn't invincible nor is he able to dodge arrows coming at him from all directions, and the run from the Blue Palace all the way to the Gates...Unlikely he could have run through without being attacked.

    In the end the exact situation is shrouded in a lot of mystery but taking that into consideration, Ulfric wasn't chased out of the city (most likely), he wasn't killed on the way back to Windhelm (a slight journey. I think that this could point towards Ulffric killing Torygg in fair combat as he says and the whole "Shouted him Apart" , "murdered him" etc. is just propaganda started by the Empire. 

  • March 18, 2015 7:29 PM EDT

    “The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones.”

    Ha! I didn't even need to google that. #soproud

    In terms of Roggvir, it depends on whether he was a conspirator. Was he brought by Ulfric and designated as the "driver of the escape vehicle", or was he simply a guard who was bought off and happened to accept a bribe from the man who would murder the High King? While being a corrupt law enforcement officer is hardly a capital crime, his last words obviously point to him sympathizing with Ulfric, which would lead credence to the former, and the Imperials are justified in executing him.

    • 1217 posts
    March 18, 2015 7:40 PM EDT

    There was nothing wrong with letting Ulfric in (unless, again, he already knew what Ulfric was going to do. There's no way to know that) as the High King's court was expecting him. He wasn't an invader or anything. The crime Roggvir is charged with is letting Ulfric escape.

    Another thing to consider is that Ulfric can't have been chased out of Solitude

    How would that tie to Roggvir, though? While we don't know the details of Ulfric's escape, I think it's much more likely that he did literally flee from the city. I don't think he went back to Windhelm until after Helgen. I interpreted the opening events of the game as his capture after fleeing from Solitude, but that is just my interpretation.

    I think that this could point towards Ulffric killing Torygg in fair combat 

    Ulfric himself says that he Shouted Torygg down. Whether or not that is fair combat is largely for the player to decide.

    • 743 posts
    March 18, 2015 7:44 PM EDT

    Whether or not Ulfric cheated in combat against Torygg is just how you said it, the player's decision. This ties into what someone's opinion would also be on Roggvir.

    • 1467 posts
    March 18, 2015 7:46 PM EDT

    Fair combat is indeed up to the player to decide and I merely meant it as Roggvir used it. I am of course getting very off topic and talking a little too much about Ulfric, got a little side-tracked with the whole thing. 

    • 743 posts
    March 18, 2015 7:52 PM EDT

    Know exactly what you mean Dragonborn, its hard to stay on a specific topic in a civil war discussion.

    • 1467 posts
    March 18, 2015 7:56 PM EDT

    To get back on topic I might as well just straight out give my opinion. 

    I am curious on who exactly decided Roggvir was guilty, but in the end I think Roggvir is the one who is most responsible for his own death. Simply staying quiet instead of screaming his praises of Ulfric would have most likely led to the assumption that he truly didn't know what Ulfric had done and allowed him to live. In the end it was his support for Ulfric that landed his head in a different pile then his body.

    • 95 posts
    March 19, 2015 6:02 AM EDT

    Personally... I have a huge hatred for the Imperial Legion since they sided with the Thalmor and proved clearly incapable of defeating them at any turn. So personally, I hate the Thalmor EVEN more. I always save Roggvir and attack the entire hold of Solitude as soon as the time comes and then slowly begin the process of crippling the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion.

    Here is my plans in order WITHOUT any followers:

    - Obliterate the entire Thalmor Embassy.

    - Decapitate Elenwen...

    - Attack all agents of the Thalmor in every hold.

    - Save Roggvir and attack all of the guards in Solitude.

    - Attack the Thalmor heaquarters in Solitude.

    - Come back with the army of Stormcloaks and attack the entire legion and sack Solitude once again.

    - Decapitate General Tulius...

    - Listen to Ulfrics speech.

    - Kill all Penitus Oculatus agents.

    - Invade the Katariah ship and massacre everyone.

    - Decapitate the Titus Mede II...

    - Eliminate all the main camps of the Imperial Legion.

    And that is how I deal a truely devastating blow to the Imperial Legion AND the Thalmor...

    Does this prove how much I hate them both? XD

  • March 19, 2015 6:16 AM EDT

    If the Legion is weak, the Legion is weak. I suppose mere men cannot truly hope to combat against mer of that level. That alone is no reason to hate them I believe.

    Instead, you should've taken over the Legion and given them the power they so desperately needed: The power to crush all who oppose their rule.

    • 95 posts
    March 19, 2015 6:21 AM EDT
  • March 19, 2015 3:41 PM EDT

    The sooner the Empire stops looking at people as  traitors, and starts looking them as people crying out for change, the sooner they'd stop having wars like these. 

    • 168 posts
    March 19, 2015 5:59 PM EDT

    It's hard to say if Roggvir is really a traitor. The question is: why anyone told Roggvir to don't let Ulfric escape after he killed Torygg? Did he know that Ulfric killed the man to begin with? Or by the time he knew that Ulfric already left Solitude?

    • 237 posts
    March 19, 2015 6:39 PM EDT

    Considering there are two gates to Solitude, guarded by more than one guard, there's no way Roggvir could have been the only one responsible for Ulfric exiting the city.  Thus, the only logical conclusion is that there was no reason to stop him.

    Any guards at the city gates would not have been at the Blue Palace to personally witness Ulfric's duel with Torygg.  If he wasn't being chased by guards (which there is no indication he was), the gate guards would not have any reason to stop a Jarl from walking out of the city gates.  If he was being chased by palace guards, there are enough guards at the gates that Roggvir could not have gotten him out of the city on his own.  Even if he had tried, the other guards could easily have stopped Ulfric at the outer gate, or simply bonked Roggvir on the head and stopped him right there in the city.

    Numerous dialogues indicate Torygg was defeated in a legal, martial dual that he chose to accept, knowing he would certainly die.  It's much more likely that Ulfric left the Blue Balance entirely uncontested, and the Empire came along later to declare it a crime.  Roggvir was the unfortunate scapegoat used by the Legion to avoid besmirching the Solitude court and the entire city guard.

    • 179 posts
    March 19, 2015 6:57 PM EDT

    How do we know that Torygg chose to accept the duel? According to the Stormcloaks, Torygg was killed in "fair combat" but we don't know what "fair combat" entails. Also, it's entirely possible that Ulfric fought his way past the guards but he still needed Roggvir's help to open the gate.

    • 237 posts
    March 19, 2015 7:59 PM EDT

    How did Roggvir open both gates?  Although I guess we also ignore the detail of closing the gate whenever the player's on the run after a murdering spree.

    The court wizard of Solitude tells you about the duel, among many others.  Noteworthy with Sybille's dialogue are the dev notes embedded in the game code.  Ulfric's claim that he knocked Torygg down with a shout and then ran him through with a "mere blade", as opposed to shouting him to pieces, seem to be true.

    • 179 posts
    March 19, 2015 9:07 PM EDT

    Yeah, the whole "Roggvir opening the gate" thing falls apart once you scrutinize it. I mean, why didn't Ulfric take the exit out of Solitude that the player uses during the DB questline?