Forums » Elder Scrolls

• Drakon

  

  • 159 posts
   

  January 16, 2014 8:24 PM EST

  Hello I was wondering what you people thought of these leaders as people. Not whole of the stormcloaks and imperials. Just what you think of them as individuals. What  good qualities do they have? What bad? What likable qualities do they have?

   

   

   

  

• Theodorus

  

  • 194 posts
   

  January 16, 2014 8:35 PM EST

  Between those two it's too easy. Tullius is the better man. Turn this into Imperials vs Stormcloaks for an actual discussion.

• Drifa Skir

  

  • 158 posts
   

  January 16, 2014 8:38 PM EST

  One of the things I like about Ulfric is that he's sensitive to what the people of Skyrim think about his political project, and he understands the need to win them to his vision, which is a comprehensive vision of an economically self-sufficient vibrant Skyrim free of Thalmor and Imperial interference.  Whatever you think about the possibilities that Skyrim could win a war against the Thalmor once they are independent of the Empire, I do think it's obvious that Ulfric has more than just that one war in mind - he mentions liberating the silver mines from Imperial levy, rebuilding the armies of the individual holds, and strengthening the new jarls in their leadership, a project of which the Empire has no similar version.  Tullius is only interested in how Skyrim can fit into the larger Imperial project of defeating the Thalmor, which has already suffered grievous setbacks.

• Bokult Shur'Tugal

  

  • 27 posts
   

  January 16, 2014 8:45 PM EST

  I wonder if they have family how they are like, or how their parents(guardians) taught as children. Was Tullius taught to be a good leader by his parents? Are his siblings (if any) like him, his children? Are Ulfrics parents stubborn like him? Unhesitating when a new code or rules must be created? And do they believe Ulfric to be a greedy general grasping for power?

• Matt Feeney the New Guy

  

  • 1124 posts
   

  January 16, 2014 8:54 PM EST

  Don't care for either of them. Though it seems like Tullius is a better strategist between capturing Ulfric and working with a weakened legion.
• Drakon

  

  • 159 posts
   

  January 16, 2014 9:02 PM EST

  There's SOO MANY OF THEM!

• Deleted Member

  
   

  January 16, 2014 9:18 PM EST

  Tulius, thanks to his military training and Imperial arrogance, underestimates his opponent, and thanks to his pride, he blames the stalemate on having not enough soldiers, weapons, supplies, or whatever. He's underestimating the people of Skyrim. He doesn't take them seriously, or this rebellion seriously. Not taking the people of Skyrim seriously is what started the rebellion, and if Tulius doesn't shape up, he'll lose it. 

  I seriously don't think Tulius is a better commander than Ulfric. If he was, why's the war taking so long? After all, Ulfic is a backwoods ignorant Nord. (SARCASM TO THE MAX) 

• Jen

  

  • 88 posts
   

  January 16, 2014 9:27 PM EST

  I don't like either of them much, I think they are both arrogant and stubborn to be honest. Yet I sympathize with both sides, since I don't think there is an easy answer. I do think Ulfric cares about his people (not much about anyone else though). So I will say that Ulfric at least has that going for him. 

• Bryn

  

  • 1913 posts
   

  January 16, 2014 9:37 PM EST

  I think that was the intent... To make them equally horrible and equally sympathetic... Tulius is horrible because of his constant insult of the nord culture (especially to his legate), he's arrogant, and unbelievably focused on winning the war and not helping anyone... Ulfric... Well we all know...
• Deleted Member

  
   

  January 16, 2014 9:40 PM EST

  I think they made the 'horribleness' of Ulfric more obvious, and they hid his redeeming qualities while they did the reverse for Tulius. Those sneaky Bethesdans

• Shuuiketsu

  

  • 127 posts
   

  January 16, 2014 9:43 PM EST

  I don't get it. What does Ulfric do that can be classified as horrible? I don't think that he's racist nor power-hungry.

• Drifa Skir

  

  • 158 posts
   

  January 16, 2014 9:45 PM EST

  Despite the fact that I strongly prefer Ulfric, I do indeed think he's racist.  Power hungry is debatable, depending on whether you believe the reports of others, or Ulfric's own words.

• Deleted Member

  
   

  January 16, 2014 9:46 PM EST

  I don't think he's given a fair trial either, that's why I put "horribleness" in quotes. 

  The man's doing more for Skyrim than the Empire's done in a while. National Pride goes a long way. 

• flex buffchest

  

  • 38 posts
   

  January 16, 2014 9:49 PM EST

  <<««««« 3rd option coming to the table in less than 48hrs. (you guys make it too tuff not to advertise)
• Drifa Skir

  

  • 158 posts
   

  January 16, 2014 9:50 PM EST

  Also, I think it's darn near impossible for these two to be in the roles that Beth has cast them in *without* being arrogant and stubborn.  I mean, really, it takes some serious chutzpah to imagine that one could lead a rebellion against an empire, or defeat a rebellion.  I think I just take the arrogance as par for the course.  I do think, too, that Ulfric does listen to Galmar and Jorlief, as well as the Dragonborn if you get to Season Unending.  I never completed an Imperial play through, so I don't know if Tullius is equally willing to take advice, which I think would be an important point.  

• Deleted Member

  
   

  January 16, 2014 9:51 PM EST

  Yeah, but considering everything, he's kinda justified. Nords are his only allies. The dark elves in Windhelm don't want to help the fight, one of them has Imperial armor( making him a spy). Ulfric might change his tune if they actually helped Windhelm. They want help, but offer nothing in return. I wouldn't like them either. Refugees, right? They aren't citizens. Why do they think they get the same treatment? 

• Drifa Skir

  

  • 158 posts
   

  January 16, 2014 9:53 PM EST

  hrmm, interesting….

• Drifa Skir

  

  • 158 posts
   

  January 16, 2014 9:56 PM EST

  I think you're forgetting thousands of years of Elf-Nord warfare.  It's not likely that those attitudes would be changed overnight.  Not even all Nords support Ulfric; why would you automatically expect the Dunmer to do so?  If Ulfric were a better politician, he would make an effort to win the Dunmer with his case for war, but he does no such thing, mostly because if he did, he'd be too clearly a good guy, and Beth had to give him a huge whopping tragic flaw.
  
  I think it's more interesting to analyze them both from a storytelling perspective, than from a perspective of "who's right" or "who's wrong" or "who's justified".

• Jen

  

  • 88 posts
   

  January 16, 2014 10:04 PM EST

  I actually think they romanticized Ulfric to a maddening degree. It's well and good to fight for your people (with no desire for power, of course not...haha) but it's another to actually consider what a civil war is going to do to your people and whether or not they are going to be strong enough and united enough to fight the real threat. Since both sides need the Dragonborn to win this war for them, I think they both underestimate their enemies and have inflated egos, and are both playing the role the true enemy wants them to play. But maybe it's just because I don't care for civil war questline in general.

• Deleted Member

  
   

  January 16, 2014 10:14 PM EST

  Honestly, how is the Dominion gonna get forces into Skyrim? They'd have OUTRAGEOUS supply lines. They'd have to either, A) sail around the coast of Cyrodiil, Hammerfell and Highrock. or B) go over land through Valenwood, and Cyrodiil, over the Jerrals, and then hope they are actually of any use. They'd have to completely destroy the Imperial forces in Cyrodiil, destroy the resistance fighters, and then somehow manage to move a significant force into Skyrim, AND THEN beat the Nords. The only way the Dominion can set foot in Skyrim is because of politics, something that once ignored, can't really do much. 

  Let the Empire rip of the Concordat. What're the elves gonna do? Launch a war they're not ready for?

• Matt Feeney the New Guy

  

  • 1124 posts
   

  January 16, 2014 10:21 PM EST

  "...working with a weakened legion." This may have something to do with the longevity of the war.
• Jen

  

  • 88 posts
   

  January 16, 2014 10:37 PM EST

  I do see your point, but logistics aside, even Ulfric acknowledges that the elves are the biggest threat to his people. I might think he's an egomaniac, but I think that shows he isn't a complete fool.

• Shuuiketsu

  

  • 127 posts
   

  January 17, 2014 2:58 PM EST

  Yes, he is quite the racist. However, everybody are. It is not weird at all consider they are different races with different strength, history and have a story of being a pain in the ass of each other. If I was a Nord and my ancestors were used as slaves by the Dunmer, I'd hate them too. 
  

• Drakon

  

  • 159 posts
   

  January 17, 2014 5:36 PM EST

  I would say the thalmor's racism out does ulfric's by a landslide

• Drifa Skir

  

  • 158 posts
   

  January 17, 2014 6:13 PM EST

  agreed.