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The "missing" Redguard woman - what did you do?

    • 47 posts
    February 8, 2013 8:43 PM EST

    Firstly, SPOILER ALERT! Most unlikely, but just in case you haven't done this quest yet maybe you should read no further.

    On my second character, I've just played again the mission In My Time Of Need, where Alik'r warriors are looking for a Redguard woman believed hiding in Tamriel. First time around I just took the word of the damsel in distress and saw them off, but this time I gave it more thought, and that set me wondering about if and how any of you came to a reasoned decision about whether to help her or turn her in. I ended up at the same decision; I helped her again, and here's my thinking.

    1) If she is a traitor who sold out the Redguard city (forget the name) to the Imperials, then firstly why is she hiding at all? It seems clear from what the Alik'r say that the Empire took the city, so why not stay there? She would still be wealthy and prominent, with protection from the new Imperial authorities, and she wouldn't be spending her days as a tavern wench.

    2) OK, there might have been a risk of reprisals in the dead of night - in that case, she could simply move to safe Imperial territory, taking her fortune with her. It would be strange to leave all her wealth unnecessarily, and it would be madness for an Imperialist traitor to flee to Whiterun, a Nord stronghold with plenty of Stormcloak encampments and patrols in the country around. Whereas if she actually was an outspoken critic of the Aldmeri Dominion as she claims, then it makes a good deal of sense - she'd need to be gone, and fast, and to go where the Dominion couldn't reach her.

    3) The Alik'r claim to be on a mission which would be viewed as honourable work by all Nords. So why do they camp in a cave in the middle of nowhere, with mercenary bandits for company, and skulk around the countryside hassling Redguard women? If they had gone to him openly and told him of their mission, the Jarl of Whiterun would have welcomed them, fed them, given them quarters in the barracks, and supplied aid for the mission. They are hiding something.

    For these reasons I concluded that she has behaved in a way that is logical and consistent with her story, whereas the Alik'r are acting in a way that makes no sense at all. But what did you do? Anyone doubt my reasoning?

    • 1913 posts
    February 8, 2013 8:54 PM EST
    In the guide book it says that not even the game designers decided who is telling the truth and who is telling a lie... So, whatever you choose is fine
    • 291 posts
    February 8, 2013 9:38 PM EST

    Except, point 2 doesn't make sense.  Hammerfell left the Empire and opposed the Dominion.  They are an independent state, so why would anyone in Hammerfell possibly care if she was a critic of the Dominion!  No one would be after her, in fact, they'd applaud her outspoken opinions and agree with her!

    Furthermore, the Aldmeri Dominion captured the city of Taneth (the one Saadia supposedly sold out) over 28 years ago, with the resistance against the Dominion presence .  Now, pardon me, but Saadia looks to be about 40 at most, which means even if she did "sell out" the city, she would have been 12 years old!  Why on earth would the Dominion hire mercenaries to pursue a woman who spoke out against them as a child?  And, why would they possibly waste the man-power in tracking her down for twenty-eight years.  That's just ludicrous.  If she had been causing problems at the time, she would have been arrested or her parents arrested right then and there.  The Dominion wouldn't have waited around forever to come after her.

    If she had been causing problems, it would have occurred after the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai some 8 years after the war started, putting her at the age of 20 at least.  Hammerfell was granted independence and the Dominion pulled out of the land, but it is possible that during that process, someone could have attempted to smuggle armaments, money, information, items, to the Dominion to further their underground foothold in Hammerfell or the surrounding provinces.  This would be an act directly against Hammerfell's best interests in remaining an independent nation, ergo she would be counted for treasonous activities.

    Then if we look at Kematu's whole deal, he doesn't kill her if you allow him to arrest her.  He paralyzes her and takes her into custody.  Does that look like the kind of behavior used by an assassin?  No.  A bounty hunter, perhaps, but not the assassin Saadia claims the Alik'r are.  When you ask him what he's doing and means to do, he tells you upfront.  While it all might be a lie, it seems mighty dubious for an assassin or anyone hired to kill anyone to potentially alert their target.  At best, they would use you for information, kill you, then take down Saadia in the Bannered Mare.  They wouldn't use you to lure her out. Plus, if they truly were out to mean her harm, why would they obey the Whiterun Guards and stay away from the city?  They could have snuck over the walls, waited for her to leave the city, anything.  Instead they post themselves in Rorikstead.  

    Plus, though they are staying with bandits, Kematu and his men don't just jump on you and attack you.  If you were a threat to their operation, half a dozen well-trained Alik'r warriors could easily take down anyone including any so-called Dragonborn, who is, by the way, trapped in a very tight and enclosed space with little room to be doing a whole lot of shouting.  Instead, he tells his men to stand down and doesn't even accuse you of doing any wrong by aiding her.  He assumes you've been duped just as everyone else has and seems quite sympathetic to her potential manipulation of you.  He quite readily asks for your help.  Had he really been out to exact anything other than justice, he would have behaved quite differently.

    Of course, when you alert Saadia to the fact that's she's being pursued, instead of thanking you, she leads you to a back room, draws a dagger on you, threatens to kill you (without so much as a by your leave), and gives vague and uncertain explanations.  When you ask her why someone might be chasing her over hill and dale, she responds with "I don't know... I guess I spoke out against the Aldmeri Dominion."  What?!  Uh, excuse me, but if someone were chasing me for months and years, I'd damn sure want to know why!  Plus, if she's running from the Thalmor, why isn't she still in Hammerfell?  Hammerfell is probably the best place to be hiding if you don't want the Thalmor sniffing around.  They're an independent state, half the province is empty desert, and there are no major Thalmor forces to be found.

    That said, I've thus far sided with Saadia, because I feel bad for her, criminal or no, I thought she deserved to go back to having a normal life.  That doesn't mean I believe her story for a minute, though. ;)

    • 1913 posts
    February 8, 2013 9:52 PM EST
    I actually thought what Kged did. It does seem suspicious, why didn't they just ask the jarl to help them, at the very least house them and provide leads?
    • 291 posts
    February 8, 2013 9:54 PM EST

    Hmm, it's possible Saadia could have paid off the guards?  We're never really given a good reason as to why the Alik'r aren't permitted in town.  The guards say they've "bothered enough" people in the city, yet they only just arrived.

    • 1913 posts
    February 8, 2013 10:00 PM EST
    ... She paid off... Every guard... In the entire hold...? That makes no sense Kyrie... But even if she some how paid off every last guard (which makes no sense), why didn't they just go to the jarl? I can walk can walk up to the jarl no problem no matter what race I am, and the guards give me no hassle.
    • 1913 posts
    February 8, 2013 10:03 PM EST
    Plus, if she paid off the guards, she obviously isn't hurting on money... Why doesn't she just leave by hiring a carriage, live in luxury in another area, or hire bodyguards to protect her?
    • 291 posts
    February 8, 2013 10:06 PM EST

    No, not every guard in the hold.  Just the ones in charge of the gates to Whiterun.  Rorikstead is within Whiterun hold, yet the guards don't stop them from staying there.

    And when you first go into Dragonsreach, you don't just walk up to the Jarl.  His housecarl intercepts you and demands to know what you think you're doing just barging into the court like you own the place.  When you enter the doors, the guards likely know you're there to give the Jarl a message about Helgen.  Once you relay the message, Balgruuf considers you to be a useful person to him and stops caring whether or not you enter his court.  In fact, after you kill the dragon, he makes you a part of his court.

    The ordinary commoner, or diplomat, however, would not have that privilege and would be intercepted by the housecarl or the guards at the door to Dragonsreach, pointing them to the correct procedure to requesting an audience with the Jarl.

    • 1913 posts
    February 8, 2013 10:13 PM EST
    There are still a lot of holes in your theory... I see what you mean, but I still think she's innocent.
    • 856 posts
    February 8, 2013 10:24 PM EST

    The alik'r were kicked out of Whiterun because one of their group was caught and arrested for burglary and is currently imprisoned there.  The two alik'r at the gate are told by the guards there "you'll lucky we don't toss you in jail after what happened." 

    • 1913 posts
    February 8, 2013 10:29 PM EST
    So why should we trust the know thieves?
    • 131 posts
    February 8, 2013 10:33 PM EST

    I usually side with neither but I'll usually do the quest as if I'd side with the Redguard woman

    • 773 posts
    February 9, 2013 4:40 AM EST

    Isn't the whole point that the game designers deliberately left it ambiguous - so that people would have a good reason to play it both ways?

    I wish there were many more quests that had this 'either-or' element to them.

    I've played this one both ways, but I tend to side with the Redguard woman most of the time.

  • February 9, 2013 4:42 AM EST

    Those Alik'r guys never sounded like ruthless bandits to me.

    Why would they openly visit Whiterun in broad daylight, all politely asking for directions, and later on allow you to live if you go and try to kill them in their cave, if they were actually bandits?

    I mean, 99% of the times in this game, when someone's evil they hang out in the wilderness like animals and never show up in town or have any interactions with other NPC's. And if they wanna sneak someone out of town, they wouldn't show up clearly dressed as "outsiders" asking for directions, they'd try to kidnap the person at night. Get my idea?

    On top of that Saadia just sounds like the obvious, stereotypical evil woman who pretends to be innocent to get away with it.

    Well maybe they're very skilled at lying, and did all of this exactly so that they didn't sound like they were the enemy, but I don't know, it sounds like common sense to me that Saadia was the evil one.

    • 377 posts
    February 9, 2013 5:37 AM EST

    Please read The Great War. This is such an informative book that would have erased any misconceptions and confusions that might have arisen from...well, whatever. The whole opening post is a confusing mess because it was the Aldmeri Dominion invading Hammerfell, NOT the Imperials.

    Iman of House Suda, under the alias of Saadia, was an Aldmeri turn-coat and betrayed the Redguard city of Taneth to the Dominion. Once the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai was signed in 4E 180 all Dominion forces are out of Hammerfell. I repeat, there are no Dominion forces in Hammerfell. No Redguard cities under Dominion rule. No secret agent Alik'r assassins in service to the Dominion (this is simply a ridiculous notion). Kematu & Alik'r are in Skyrim to bring Saadia back to face justice in Hammerfell.

    Saadia's "story" *lie* was that she was forced to flee Hammerfell to the province of Skyrim after speaking out negatively against the Aldmeri Dominion, who hired the Alik'r to hunt her down and assassinate her. ...right... The Aldmeri Dominion hired the Alik'r...??? What world is this in?!! Why aren't the Aldmeri Justiciars, that are very abundant in Skyrim, after her if this is truly the case?!

    If one knows the war story, and has talked to Kematu and listened to his side of the story it is quite obvious who the guilty party is. Hammerfell is cleaning house since the Dominion left, and exacting due process on criminals.

    "Don't be fooled by a pretty face. You're better than that."-Kematu. Kged got fooled.

    • 773 posts
    February 9, 2013 5:54 AM EST

    Great post lanep25 - and a compelling lore-based argument

    I'll definitely be handing Saadia over to the Alikr next time around.

    • 377 posts
    February 9, 2013 5:58 AM EST

    Saadia could very well be late 40's early 50's making her age very believable to be a traitor of the city of Taneth. That's a big problem with Skyrim - we really can't tell the age of NPCs. We can do all the guess work we want, and we could be completely wrong.

    But I am surprised that you would side with Saadia just because you "feel bad for her." Does she really deserve to go back to living a normal life after betraying her people??? Huh, what? I am happy you can see through her lies though.

    • 377 posts
    February 9, 2013 6:00 AM EST

    What holes?

    • 966 posts
    February 9, 2013 6:08 AM EST

    Aye, that's exactly how I see it. 

    It was obvious from the first time I did the quest.

    • 952 posts
    February 9, 2013 7:04 AM EST

    Sometimes I help her, sometimes I help the Alik'r. There is no true story in this quest, none of the 2 parties can prove their motives. Maybe she is this traitor, maybe she is just confused with her because of the scar.

    • 47 posts
    February 9, 2013 7:47 AM EST

    Damn. This is what happens when you don't do the research.

    Next dilemma: do I execute her?

    • 952 posts
    February 9, 2013 8:45 AM EST

    Give her to Kematu to bring her to justice, or kill her and piss Kematu of and receive no payment I think it is.

    • 1913 posts
    February 9, 2013 9:11 AM EST
    Guys... No one is right here. I have the game guide and they said they purposely left it ambiguous, so either way, you're right about this.
    • 1913 posts
    February 9, 2013 9:12 AM EST
    You still receive payment, it is the exact same amount if you turned her into kematu. So really, it doesn't matter which side you choose, the reward is the same and you can't tell who is lying, you just choose one or the other
    • 1913 posts
    February 9, 2013 9:16 AM EST
    Just saying, you all keep saying you have concrete evidence saying on side is right and the other is wrong, there is no proof so those members are lying