September 21, 2016 11:33 AM EDT
RogueSilver said:
HumanOfPrey said:
Stormcloaks are the best hope for Skyrim's safety against the Thalmor Nazis.
You're discounting the fact Ulfric himself says the Stormcloaks cannot fight the entire Empire in an open invasion. Should you attempt to attack Solitude while the Dark Brotherhood quest "Bound Until Death" is active, you're met with this direct quote from Ulfric: "We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's cousin is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire. So we'll bide our time for now." If he admits he couldn't face a full invasion from the Empire, what real chance does he have against the Dominion (who I might also add, includes forces from Summerset Isle, Valenwood and Elsweyr)? This is Ulfric, in-game saying he could not take on Imperial forces alone. This is FACT.
Here we have the fall of a once great empire. The coward that the imperials refer to as Emporer, has just sold out Hammerfell. Were it not for them leaving the Empire, they would be currently occupied by the Dominion. Why should we trust an Empire that sells out their own people?
Hammerfell does not despise the Empire, they seceded as they could not accept the terms of the Concordat.
The outlaw of Talos worship is blatant discrimination to the entire Nord race. Now, obviously, the Aldmeri Dominion knew that this would result in internal chaos, and that is why the Empire is totally idiotic to have signed such a piece of garbage. The day the Empire signed the White-Gold Concordant is the day it died.
When you lose a war and sign a treaty, you have no say in the terms of that treaty, your only option is to obey. To give you a real world example, "The Treaty of Versailles" That Germany signed at the end of WWI. Germany had to accept blame, pay reparations, they were forbidden to have submarines or an air force, could only have an army of 100,000 and lost territories. NOW lets apply this to the White-Gold Concordat, which forced the Empire to pay reparations, lose territories, disband the Blades and banned the worship of Talos. Do you see a pattern? Do you understand that when it was signed they HAD to follow through with the terms? Terms they originally rejected when faced with the Ultimatum that started the Great War. The Empire is lucky the Dominion didn't "alter the deal" as it were.
The redguards have been holding their own for quite a while now, and the Thalmor is getting nowhere close to defeating them. But Hammerfell hasn't gone through an entire civil war, have they? That's very true, but I propose we observe how the Stormcloaks would do battle against the elves, and how an invasion of the Aldmeri Dominion would work out, (hint, it doesn't end well for the nazis.).
If Hammerfell was some shiny example that the Stormcloaks can defeat the Dominion, then the Empire would have won the Great War in the first place. The only reason that Hammerfell won against the Dominion was because the bulk/main forces of the Dominion were in Cyrodiil fighting, the Empire left Elite troops in Hammerfell prior to signing, the Redguards put their civil war on hold and fought together and the Redguards knew the land better. It wasn't some grand victory that proved one small nation could easily defeat the Dominion, if it were that easy, Hammerfell could have just kept going and fought the elves all the way back to the Summerset Isle, instead of signing their own peace treaty. People blindly assume that just because Hammerfell won 1 victory that somehow means the Dominion can be easily defeated. "Hammerfell did it, so can Skyrim!" isn’t a valid argument without seeing the bigger picture.
See where Skyrim is? Great, now see where the Summerset Isles are located? Excellent. Now, let's make a scenario. The Stormcloaks have just won their independence, and the Aldmeri Dominion is going to strike while Skyrim is still recovering. Sounds like a good tactic, eh? No, not at all. Let's say that the Thalmor sail ships past Hammerfell set for Skyrim. You know what's gonna happen as soon as a boat passes by the Hammerfell coast? It's gonna get sunken into the depths of oblivion. But let's just say the entire fleets goes out of its way to miss Hammerfell by going further west. That's great, their fleet is still untouched. Now they've made it to Skyrim. There're only 3 suitable ports in this province. Solitude, Dawnstar, and Windhelm. Guess what's gonna be stationed at each port? Stormcloaks. Lots of Stormcloaks. Ready to spill elven blood. The elves are going to be under constant pressure as soon as they reach land. Also, Solitude is the only port with fair weather. The rest are a freezing mess that the elves would be totally shocked by versus their nice and warm Summerset Isles. It would be an absolute clusterfuck for them.
The Dominion could easily use Cyrodiil as a jumping point into Skyrim. The Empire, weakened from a civil war with Skyrim, is in no posistion to tell them "no", ON TOP of the fact they could feel bitter towards losing the providence AND possibly losing their Emperor to Skyrim if the Dark brotherhood questline was completed in your playthrough. Also Skyrim is a much better place to wage war in than Hammerfell. There's an abundance of forests, providing an ample amount of wood for any army. There's fresh water literally everywhere. The forests teem with game and animal life, making living off the land much easier. Armies can avoid the cold by adequately insulating their armor. There's no way to avoid the heat without losing a lot of the protection your armor provides. In Hammerfell, fresh water is practically worth its weight in gold, animals are practically nowhere to be found in the barren deserts, and metal armor acts as a furnace which cooks anybody inside.
Let's say the Dominion finally take the ports. They're now ready to take Whiterun for central control. Now keep in mind, the Stormcloaks are known to utilize guerilla warfare tactics. Guess what's gonna be accompanying the Thalmor on their way to Whiterun? Ambushes. Lots of Ambushes. The Elves finally reach Whiterun, only to see that the entire city has been burned to the grounds and the resources taken up by the Cloaks. The Thalmor keep pushing down south, with no little to no rations, extremely alien weather, and a god-awful morale status. And you know what's going to be waiting at the fair weathered Riften? The Stormcloaks. The entire remains of the army. It'll be a stand of fully fed and high morale Nords against the sorry excuse for an army Dominion. Checkmate, Skyrim has won.
You clearly don't know what you're talking about. The Dominion is not "small", as it encompasses the Summerset Isles, Valenwood, and Elsweyr. That's roughly the same size as the current Empire. Besides, even Ulfric mentions that they cannot handle the full force of the Empire, which is damning evidence the Legion in Skyrim is merely a branch. If the Stormcloaks can't even handle a severely weakened Empire, how would they handle the Aldmeri Dominion, which has a lot of power?
Now, what if the Thalmor go through Cyyrodil instead? The White Gold concordant does not state that the elves can simply march an entire invasion force through Cyyrodil. And as cowardly as the Empire is, there's no way in hell they'll stand by as a threat as great as an invasion army walks across their lawn. There would be a second great war as a result of this. And the cloaks, along with the redguards, would probably assist the Empire in such a scenario.
Like I said If the Dominion wanted to use Cyrodiil as a jumping point into Skyrim, they could. The Empire will be even more weak after lose the civil war, so they are in no way set to refuse the Dominion invasion to Skyrim. Furthermore the Stormlcoaks would never go crawling back to the people they claimed were the enemy, because Nordic pride even if both hate the Dominion and the Redguards won't join the Stormcloaks because Skyrim stole lands from Hammerfell.
You're discounting the fact Ulfric himself says the Stormcloaks cannot fight the entire Empire in an open invasion. Should you attempt to attack Solitude while the Dark Brotherhood quest "Bound Until Death" is active, you're met with this direct quote from Ulfric: "We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's cousin is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire. So we'll bide our time for now." If he admits he couldn't face a full invasion from the Empire, what real chance does he have against the Dominion (who I might also add, includes forces from Summerset Isle, Valenwood and Elsweyr)? This is Ulfric, in-game saying he could not take on Imperial forces alone. This is FACT.
Ok, you really think the Empire is going to go into an all out war with the Cloaks, when the Thalmor are literally waiting with bated breath for them to do just that? No, that's not what would happen. Also, Ulfric implies that the only way an all out war against Cyyrodil would ever happen is due to a royal assassination. That is a FACT, good sir.
Hammerfell does not despise the Empire, they seceded as they could not accept the terms of the Concordat.
You're already nitpicking at this point. Even if the redguards do not despise the Empire, they still have a cold opinion about them. Nice try, though.
When you lose a war and sign a treaty, you have no say in the terms of that treaty, your only option is to obey. To give you a real world example, "The Treaty of Versailles" That Germany signed at the end of WWI. Germany had to accept blame, pay reparations, they were forbidden to have submarines or an air force, could only have an army of 100,000 and lost territories. NOW lets apply this to the White-Gold Concordat, which forced the Empire to pay reparations, lose territories, disband the Blades and banned the worship of Talos. Do you see a pattern? Do you understand that when it was signed they HAD to follow through with the terms? Terms they originally rejected when faced with the Ultimatum that started the Great War. The Empire is lucky the Dominion didn't "alter the deal" as it were.
The world war 2 analogy that you present is probably the weakest one I've ever seen before. Germany was not in the same position as the Empire. Germany had no power whatsoever to alter it, whereas the allies did. The Great War was practically a stalemate. The Empire and AD was pretty much matched, which means the Empire DID have a say so in the treaty. You act as if the Empire was the largest sufferer. The elves know how to play their cards; that is why the Imperials fell under.
If Hammerfell was some shiny example that the Stormcloaks can defeat the Dominion, then the Empire would have won the Great War in the first place. The only reason that Hammerfell won against the Dominion was because the bulk/main forces of the Dominion were in Cyrodiil fighting, the Empire left Elite troops in Hammerfell prior to signing, the Redguards put their civil war on hold and fought together and the Redguards knew the land better. It wasn't some grand victory that proved one small nation could easily defeat the Dominion, if it were that easy, Hammerfell could have just kept going and fought the elves all the way back to the Summerset Isle, instead of signing their own peace treaty. People blindly assume that just because Hammerfell won 1 victory that somehow means the Dominion can be easily defeated. "Hammerfell did it, so can Skyrim!" isn’t a valid argument without seeing the bigger picture.
Now you're butchering my points. I did not say the 'Cloaks could beat the Thalmor at their mainland, I stated that they could defend Skyrim. Big difference there, bud.
The Dominion could easily use Cyrodiil as a jumping point into Skyrim. The Empire, weakened from a civil war with Skyrim, is in no posistion to tell them "no", ON TOP of the fact they could feel bitter towards losing the providence AND possibly losing their Emperor to Skyrim if the Dark brotherhood questline was completed in your playthrough. Also Skyrim is a much better place to wage war in than Hammerfell. There's an abundance of forests, providing an ample amount of wood for any army. There's fresh water literally everywhere. The forests teem with game and animal life, making living off the land much easier. Armies can avoid the cold by adequately insulating their armor. There's no way to avoid the heat without losing a lot of the protection your armor provides. In Hammerfell, fresh water is practically worth its weight in gold, animals are practically nowhere to be found in the barren deserts, and metal armor acts as a furnace which cooks anybody inside.
You're delusional if you believe the Empire will allow the Thalmor to stroll an invasion force through their backyard. The Empire IS in a position of telling them to get their damn troops out of the province, as that is a war threat to the Imperials.
Skyrim is not a good place to wage war. Go back to 8th grade history and study up on Napolean's invasion of Russia. A barren wasteland filled with nothing but snow is not prime for a bunch of elves that are used to the warm islands of their home province. Insulated armor can only go so far, bro.
You clearly don't know what you're talking about. The Dominion is not "small", as it encompasses the Summerset Isles, Valenwood, and Elsweyr. That's roughly the same size as the current Empire. Besides, even Ulfric mentions that they cannot handle the full force of the Empire, which is damning evidence the Legion in Skyrim is merely a branch. If the Stormcloaks can't even handle a severely weakened Empire, how would they handle the Aldmeri Dominion, which has a lot of power?
I believe you are the one who doesn't know what you're talking about. Your logic has made literally no sense so far. Like I said, the Dominion is just as weak as the Empire, they just know how to properly play their cards. Do you really think the Empire would allow the Thalmor to just take an independent Skyrim? Hell no, that would lead to the elven nazis having a station in their backyard. It would be suicide if the Empire did not assist the cloaks.
Like I said If the Dominion wanted to use Cyrodiil as a jumping point into Skyrim, they could. The Empire will be even more weak after lose the civil war, so they are in no way set to refuse the Dominion invasion to Skyrim. Furthermore the Stormlcoaks would never go crawling back to the people they claimed were the enemy, because Nordic pride even if both hate the Dominion and the Redguards won't join the Stormcloaks because Skyrim stole lands from Hammerfell.
Again, the Empire would not allow the Thalmor to take Skyrim, as it would allow the elves to attack them from both fronts. Nordic pride is not a valid excuse to say an alliance is impossible, just look at ESO. The Nords hate the dark elves and the argonians, yet the Ebonheart Pact was formed. I'm also quite sure the redguards would disregard the petty rivalry to help against the Dominion.
Ok, you really think the Empire is going to go into an all out war with the Cloaks, when the Thalmor are literally waiting with bated breath for them to do just that? No, that's not what would happen. Also, Ulfric implies that the only way an all out war against Cyyrodil would ever happen is due to a royal assassination. That is a FACT, good sir.
Ulfric mentions that they cannot handle the full force of the Empire, which is damning evidence the Legion in Skyrim is merely a branch. If the Stormcloaks can't even handle a severely weakened Empire, how would they handle the Aldmeri Dominion, which has a lot of power?
You're already nitpicking at this point. Even if the redguards do not despise the Empire, they still have a cold opinion about them. Nice try, though.
Hammerfell didn’t agree with the Empire either but they didn’t start killing Imperials or standing on soap boxes claiming they no longer NEEDED the Empire, they just kept fighting the Dominion.
The world war 2 analogy that you present is probably the weakest one I've ever seen before. Germany was not in the same position as the Empire. Germany had no power whatsoever to alter it, whereas the allies did. The Great War was practically a stalemate. The Empire and AD was pretty much matched, which means the Empire DID have a say so in the treaty. You act as if the Empire was the largest sufferer. The elves know how to play their cards; that is why the Imperials fell under.
If the Dominion was as weak as the Empire, there wouldn’t be a “Great War 2 - Even More Great” coming soon or hell, there wouldn’t even be a cold war going on right now between the Empire and the Dominion. On top of that it's widely known the Empire had no way of knowing how much of the Dominion's forces they had beat back. They wanted/needed to get back the imperial city, and once they did it was abundantly clear their own forces were in no shape to continue the fight. There absolutely was a need to sign it.
Now you're butchering my points. I did not say the 'Cloaks could beat the Thalmor at their mainland, I stated that they could defend Skyrim. Big difference there, bud.
An Independent Skyrim has no allies, 2 major borders with Thalmor already stationed there, just fought a civil war with its entire force, and Ulfric himself stated they Could not defend against an invasion from the Empire. Can Skyrim fight 2 fronts? Especially after losing men in a civil war? Especially when most of its army consists of civilians and such who have no military or combat training?
You're delusional if you believe the Empire will allow the Thalmor to stroll an invasion force through their backyard. The Empire IS in a position of telling them to get their damn troops out of the province, as that is a war threat to the Imperials.
Skyrim is not a good place to wage war. Go back to 8th grade history and study up on Napolean's invasion of Russia. A barren wasteland filled with nothing but snow is not prime for a bunch of elves that are used to the warm islands of their home province. Insulated armor can only goso far, bro.
Use the logic here. Do you think the Empire, who became even more weak after losing a civil war is in a position to stop the Thalmor? And do you think Skyrim is a frozen wasteland? Last time I checked there is no snow on Riverwood.
I believe you are the one who doesn't know what you're talking about. Your logic has made literally no sense so far. Like I said, the Dominion is just as weak as the Empire, they just know how to properly play their cards. Do you really think the Empire would allow the Thalmor to just take an independent Skyrim? Hell no, that would lead to the elven nazis having a station in their backyard. It would be suicide if the Empire did not assist the cloaks.
The WGC was signed in 4E 175, the civil war in Skyrim starts in 4E 201, Do you think the Dominion has just been sitting around with their thumbs up their asses for the last 26 years? They are not as weak as you would like to believe they are, and not to mention they have the Wood Elves AND the Khajiits to call on as well. It's not just everyone vs Summerset Isles. And like I said before the Empire is not in a position to stop the Thalmor after becoming even more weak after losing the civil war. And why would the Empire assist the Stormcloaks if they lose Skyrim? They just lost an entire legion to a bunch of pro-Nords barbarians yelling about how they want to kill imperials dogs, the wounds would be too fresh to even think of an alliance. The Empire lost their soldiers, so if The Dominion assaults Skyrim, The Empire will probably just watch them burn.
Again, the Empire would not allow the Thalmor to take Skyrim, as it would allow the elves to attack them from both fronts. Nordic pride is not a valid excuse to say an alliance is impossible, just look at ESO. The Nords hate the dark elves and the argonians, yet the Ebonheart Pact was formed. I'm also quite sure the redguards would disregard the petty rivalry to help against the Dominion.
The Nords won't forge an alliance with anyone because of their pride. It's part of what defines the Nords as a people, and I love them for it, but it blinds them. It's something that is definetly a factor often overlooked when people try and argue "well the Nords would just call for help". They wouldn't. Even Balgruuf, a pro-Empire Nord Jarl had to be convinced to let the Empire defend his city against the Stormcloaks. His steward even said "hey why don't we just let some Legionnaires die in place of some of our own men" when discussing the defense of his city. He knew Ulfric was coming for him, and was prepared to lose his hold rather than allow the Empire to help. And Did you know the Redguards and Nords fought against each other during War of Bend'r-Mahk some 600 years ago? Hammerfell just experienced Haymon Camoran or the Camoran Usurper taking advantage of the disunity between the Crowns and Forebears to invade the weakened Hammerfell. After the Camoran Usurper's invasion, the further weakened Hammerfell faced the Nords from Skyrim. The Crowns and Forebears was too caught up with their hatred for each other to face the Nords properly. It ended up with Elinhir and half of Dragonstar captured by Skyrim. So if you think Hammerfell and the Empire are going to step in and help Skyrim, you're mistaken. War grievances do not disappear overnight.