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Discussion: Alignments - Neutral Evil

Tags: #Alignments  #Zonnonn 
  • Member
    October 8

    soly said:

    I don't think NE is always necessarily unconcerned as we see with Calixto, but it's definitely a proven possibility. Similarly, it's definitely possible for NE to be malicious rather than merely unconcerned. You probably agree with me, but it's best to have these things aired out clearly.

    Your points are as excellent as always, Soly. You're theory of Mercer is especially intriguing - everything has a use kind of thing, it really reveals the thought process a NE might have. And you're right, I completely agree.

  • Member
    October 9

    soly said:

    I don't think NE is always necessarily unconcerned as we see with Calixto, but it's definitely a proven possibility. Similarly, it's definitely possible for NE to be malicious rather than merely unconcerned. You probably agree with me, but it's best to have these things aired out clearly.

    I would suggest that Evil might take a primarily calculating view of the world. Lives, for example, would hold no intrinsic value of their own; an Evil character would value a person's life only inasmuch as the person is useful to him or her. Calixto valued the people he stabbed as raw material. They were useful to him, but more useful dead. So he stabbed them.

    The Thieves' Guild is useful to Mercer - they bring in loots - and also importantly, the act of killing them has no value to Mercer. Why would he? A dead thief brings in no money, and if he stabs a thief, the rest the Guild will riot, and his income plunges. He also wants to safeguard the thieves who bring in money, so that they can continue to bring in money (they don't get caught) and so that they don't desert the Guild. As for thieves who don't bring in money? They're useful to him, too. If the town guard catches them and throws them in jail, they might be lulled into a false sense of security ("nah, those Thieves' Guild people are idiots, don't worry about them, they couldn't open a lock if I handed them the key"). In this sense, their continued existence isn't very valuable to Mercer - because they do not bring him money - but the end of their existence (when they get caught) is useful to him.

    From what I'm reading so far, NE is a really warm and cuddly alignment. If something good happens as a result of a neutral Evil character's actions, it is entirely coincidental. However, I guess it could be really good fun to play, especially if I'm right in thinking that Abnur Tharn fits this alignment like a glove.

    The Arch-Troll

    One of the most charismatic characters in the game, he is an unrepetentant troll. He is on the side of the Hero, genuinely helps save the world and always brings a smile, but all these things seem to benefit just one person in the end: Abnur Tharn. Sorry, like the Calixto thing or the opening post in which Zon mentions politicians, I tend to need examples for the alignment in question to stick.

  • Member
    October 9

    Paws said:

    From what I'm reading so far, NE is a really warm and cuddly alignment. If something good happens as a result of a neutral Evil character's actions, it is entirely coincidental. However, I guess it could be really good fun to play, especially if I'm right in thinking that Abnur Tharn fits this alignment like a glove.

    One of the most charismatic characters in the game, he is an unrepetentant troll. He is on the side of the Hero, genuinely helps save the world and always brings a smile, but all these things seem to benefit just one person in the end: Abnur Tharn. Sorry, like the Calixto thing or the opening post in which Zon mentions politicians, I tend to need examples for the alignment in question to stick.

    I reckon he fits pretty well. Not a monster, but by no means someone you'd want to talk to for any length of time. And the fact that he uses saving the world as basically an excuse to help himself is a perfect metaphor for NE in my eyes.

  • October 10
    I feel like Neutral Evil really fits in with thief classes, such as the Rogue or the Thief. Really not all that big on taking sides, but quite content with taking from others.
  • Member
    October 11
    Thieves, rogues and politicians, true, but you've made me think. Hate thinking. I remember that one of the things about the alignment system I could never wrap my head around was how the priesthood of a deity with that alignment would behave, or a paladin of a neutral evil god. To be neutral evil would make the tenets of the order or holy book a very nebulous thing, perhaps. How do you spread the holy word if you are NE? Would it be, "sign up and see what you can gain?" would the relationship between god and faithful be one of mutual benefit and profit only? How does religion work in the context of NE? I'm thinking almost similar to how the Thieves Guild and Nocturnal interact, but there must be other examples.
  • Member
    October 11

    Loopdiss said: I feel like Neutral Evil really fits in with thief classes, such as the Rogue or the Thief. Really not all that big on taking sides, but quite content with taking from others.

    I like that you're putting classes to the alignments, Loop, makes it a lot easier for me to visualise them when I can put a 'face' to the name! And I agree, Thief seems to be quite apt, does bad things but doesn't exactly have a big overarching plan.

    Paws said:

    Thieves, rogues and politicians, true, but you've made me think. Hate thinking. I remember that one of the things about the alignment system I could never wrap my head around was how the priesthood of a deity with that alignment would behave, or a paladin of a neutral evil god. To be neutral evil would make the tenets of the order or holy book a very nebulous thing, perhaps. How do you spread the holy word if you are NE? Would it be, "sign up and see what you can gain?" would the relationship between god and faithful be one of mutual benefit and profit only? How does religion work in the context of NE? I'm thinking almost similar to how the Thieves Guild and Nocturnal interact, but there must be other examples.

    We're getting into some deep territory here! Personal gain does seem to be the running theme for neutral evil, but I feel like there should be some deeper message or goal when it comes to religion... But I guess whether there is or not is up for debate. In DnD and similar fantasy games there's always magic users (I think they're Warlocks?) who sign up to a God for power but sign away their soul in exchange, which seems pretty similar to me. Such a god doesn't seem the type to have 'regular' followers, more like Cultists. Take Boethiah for example, people fight and kill each other in a desperate attempt to be her Champion, which benefits them as well her. But maybe that's too direct, and in that case your example is spot on. Less 'sell your soul to the devil' and more about mutual benefits for both parties, although for both parties its to a lesser degree. Hmmm, this is interesting, I might have to come back after thinking on it a bit more.

  • October 11

    Paws said:

    soly said:

    I don't think NE is always necessarily unconcerned as we see with Calixto, but it's definitely a proven possibility. Similarly, it's definitely possible for NE to be malicious rather than merely unconcerned. You probably agree with me, but it's best to have these things aired out clearly.

    I would suggest that Evil might take a primarily calculating view of the world. Lives, for example, would hold no intrinsic value of their own; an Evil character would value a person's life only inasmuch as the person is useful to him or her. Calixto valued the people he stabbed as raw material. They were useful to him, but more useful dead. So he stabbed them.

    The Thieves' Guild is useful to Mercer - they bring in loots - and also importantly, the act of killing them has no value to Mercer. Why would he? A dead thief brings in no money, and if he stabs a thief, the rest the Guild will riot, and his income plunges. He also wants to safeguard the thieves who bring in money, so that they can continue to bring in money (they don't get caught) and so that they don't desert the Guild. As for thieves who don't bring in money? They're useful to him, too. If the town guard catches them and throws them in jail, they might be lulled into a false sense of security ("nah, those Thieves' Guild people are idiots, don't worry about them, they couldn't open a lock if I handed them the key"). In this sense, their continued existence isn't very valuable to Mercer - because they do not bring him money - but the end of their existence (when they get caught) is useful to him.

    From what I'm reading so far, NE is a really warm and cuddly alignment. If something good happens as a result of a neutral Evil character's actions, it is entirely coincidental. However, I guess it could be really good fun to play, especially if I'm right in thinking that Abnur Tharn fits this alignment like a glove.

    The Arch-Troll

    One of the most charismatic characters in the game, he is an unrepetentant troll. He is on the side of the Hero, genuinely helps save the world and always brings a smile, but all these things seem to benefit just one person in the end: Abnur Tharn. Sorry, like the Calixto thing or the opening post in which Zon mentions politicians, I tend to need examples for the alignment in question to stick.

    Very nice comparison Paws.

  • Member
    October 11

    I really do enjoy this alignment due to the sheer versatility it offers for my personal playstyle (I do exclusively play assassins :p). I always liked the idea in fantasy of a character disregarding the rules and going their own way. I would also go as far as to suggest that, while ironic, a neutral evil character may benefit from having their own code to go by. It offers a bit of irony and dimension to a seemingly one dimensional "don't give a damn" character that is all too common for roguish classes. 

    Have an illegal assassination contract that needs to be filled? A neutral evil character can likely be the most efficient. Why? Becuase they don't particularly take joy in being evil, it's just a sort of by-product of not caring about the law and having their own selfish ambitions. This generally results in a cold killer that only cares about getting that fat purse of gold after the job is done. They're more likely to not do anything stupid because they don't take any particular pleasure in killing. 

    The above summary is just my take on what this alignment actually entails. Alignments can have several variations, obviously. So don't quote me :P

  • Member
    October 11

    Rogue said:

    I really do enjoy this alignment due to the sheer versatility it offers for my personal playstyle (I do exclusively play assassins :p).

    Wait what?! I never noticed :P

    I always liked the idea in fantasy of a character disregarding the rules and going their own way. I would also go as far as to suggest that, while ironic, a neutral evil character may benefit from having their own code to go by. It offers a bit of irony and dimension to a seemingly one dimensional "don't give a damn" character that is all too common for roguish classes. 

    Have an illegal assassination contract that needs to be filled? A neutral evil character can likely be the most efficient. Why? Becuase they don't particularly take joy in being evil, it's just a sort of by-product of not caring about the law and having their own selfish ambitions. This generally results in a cold killer that only cares about getting that fat purse of gold after the job is done. They're more likely to not do anything stupid because they don't take any particular pleasure in killing. 

    The above summary is just my take on what this alignment actually entails. Alignments can have several variations, obviously. So don't quote me :P

    Reliability... Interesting. I haven't thought about it that way, but I reckon you're right. An overly Chaotic or Lawful character would be bound to act out based on their beliefs, and Good-aligned ones would probably be a little squeamish about the whole killing business. Yeah, only NE or NN would really be the ones you could trust I reckon, well to get the job done at least, I definitely wouldn't want to turn my back on a NE assassin!

    I'm really liking the different perspectives by the way guys! We're delving into loads of different areas, more than I thought of, it's making for some great discussion.