[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Richtus]Richtus[/url] said:[/b]

So I have a question about the resto loop/glitch.

I tried starting the recently restored Eternal Flame build, and it says that taking a fortify restoration potion before putting on spell enhancing gear, or a shrine blessing, or a standing stone power should enhance the effects of said items.

So I tried that, I made a low level fortify restoration potion (21%) with only 1/5 in the alchemist perk, and it did indeed enhance the items I had.

However, once the potion runs out a minute later, the enhancements are gone.

The Eternal Flame build mentions taking the potion before a standing stone, or a shrine blessing,  but what is the point when the effect will wear off long before you get to a fight?

Do I need to add more perks? Do I need to go through the whole resto loop process to make rediculous resto potions?

[/blockquote]

Do you use Unofficial Patches? 

I do have the Unofficial Patch, but I also have another mod the re-enables the resto loop, which the unofficial patch had "fixed".

 I know it works because I used it for another build here.

I've seen the resto loop used to make things like crazy smithing or enchanting potions to make crazy armor/weapons and enchantments, but I'm questioning it for this Eternal Flame build when it comes to the things I already mentioned, taking the potion before putting on gear/using shrines or stones, etc.

@ Richtus:  The Resto-Loop and what you are doing are two different things. 

Resto-Loop is used to create super powerful potions. 

The Eternal Flame build is not doing this they are using a differnt glitch to augment the magnitude of enchantments and blessings.  In this case the glitch is that the augment is permanent when it should be limited to the duration of the potion, with a few caveats.   Augmented enchantments are only permanant until you remove the equipment at which point they will revert back to their orignal levels.  Augmented blessings only last until the blessing naturally expires or you replace/renew it, at which point the augments will need to be reapplied.

My assumption is that the USP fixes this second glitch, and that your Resto-Loop patch only addresses the Resto-Loop and doesn't do anything for the "permanancy" glitch that the Eternal Flame is using.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Vargr]Vargr White-Tree[/url] said:[/b]

@ Richtus:  The Resto-Loop and what you are doing are two different things. 

Resto-Loop is used to create super powerful potions. 

The Eternal Flame build is not doing this they are using a differnt glitch to augment the magnitude of enchantments and blessings.  In this case the glitch is that the augment is permanent when it should be limited to the duration of the potion, with a few caveats.   Augmented enchantments are only permanant until you remove the equipment at which point they will revert back to their orignal levels.  Augmented blessings only last until the blessing naturally expires or you replace/renew it, at which point the augments will need to be reapplied.

My assumption is that the USP fixes this second glitch, and that your Resto-Loop patch only addresses the Resto-Loop and doesn't do anything for the "permanancy" glitch that the Eternal Flame is using.

[/blockquote]

Ahh, thanks for clearing that up! Guess I'll look into it, see what I can find, or just move on. Thanks again!

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Aysleph]Aysleph[/url] said:[/b]Should I use enchanting or alchemy for my upcoming playthrough as a witchhunter?[/blockquote]

In the interest of full disclosure, I should probably mention that I personally favor Enchanting over Alchemy for most of the reasons you've mentioned (in particular the fire-and-forget aspect--enchant it, wear or wield it, and you're done). And for a pure mage, Alchemy's buffs are nice, but you lose all of its damage capabilities if you plan to never wield a weapon. Still, if you run out of juice those poisons will be the only thing that makes your dagger even remotely useful (unless you've got some pretty boss enchantments on those daggers).

That said, some of the builders on the vault that I most look up to favor Alchemy over... well, just about every skill. There is something incredibly versatile about Alchemy that I really like, and for some builds (as much as I hate to admit it) Alchemy fits the roleplay better than Enchanting. Unless your witchunter is an arcane witchunter, Alchemy might very well fit the roleplay better than Enchanting. Also, if you're rocking a crossbow or bow and arrow, Alchemy is absolutely devastating (especially with the Poisoner perk and stacking 'weakness to...' poisons).

So I guess my answer is 'depends' xD

*cracks knuckles*

Alright. Let's do this.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Aysleph]Aysleph[/url] said:[/b]...I started thinking; when would it ever be beneficial for a mage to choose alchemy over enchanting?[/blockquote]

Many Alchemical Fortification effects are actually funamentally different from their Enchanting archetypes. For example, the Fortify Destruction Enchantment will reduce the overall cost of a spell, while the Fortify Destruction Alchemical effect straight up increases the damage of your destruction magic. Given the number of free Destruction Fortification enchants laying around to be found, investing in a potion that can crank your power output by 40% starts to sound pretty nice.

For the record:

-Fortify Conjuration potions raise the duration on your summons (kind of meh, but sometimes helpful)

-Fortify Alteration increases the duration of Alteration (mildly gamebreaking when you can Paralyze an entire room full of enemies for up to a minute, and I hear this can also affect the Slow Time shout)

-Fortify Illusion increases the level your Illusion spells effect enemies (which is more useful for higher level spells minus the Illusion perks because of math I'll let you read.)

-Fortify Restoration is...Sort of insanely broken in the vanilla game. It boosts the effect of Restoration magic, and most all beneficial effects applied via perks and enchantments are considered to be a Restoration effect. If you play a modded game with an unofficial patch, this is probably instantly repaired, which will limit the usefulness of this in some ways, but still makes it a very nice effect for a Healer type mage, as well as one who wants to Turn Undead or spam the heck out of the stackable DoT from the Poison Rune.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Aysleph]Aysleph[/url] said:[/b]As far as I'm concerned, alchemy is just a weaker and temporary version of enchanting for a mage.[/blockquote]

Nope. There are several very important differences. First, Alchemy effects don't take up an equipment slot, so they can stack on top of existing enchantment effects. Remember that Destruction Fortification thing? It's easy to wear a Novice Robe of Destruction and chug a Fortify Destruction potion.

Another nice thing about Alchemy effects stacking on top of equipment? No need to swap out weapons or gear to gain new effects.

Also, potions and poisons have effects which are otherwise difficult to manage or take significant perk investment to acquire through normal magic. Wanna be an Alteration Witchhunter and Paralyze enemies while you shoot 'em full of arrows, but disappointed that Paralyze is an expert level spell? You can gather a whole lot of Canis Root, Swamp Fungal Pods, and Imp Stool without even having to try, then apply a Paralysis poison to your arrows. Want to sneak a little better, but no perks in Illusion? Chug a Fortify Sneak potion made from Abacean Longfin and Purple Mountain Flowers, which are easy to find, and then down an Invisibility potion made from Nirnroot and a Luna Moth Wing.

Some effects, like Weakness to Shock/Fire/Frost/Magic/Poison, can only be found via alchemy, which makes a build that can utilize them (e.g., a Witchhunter or even an Adept Conjuration mage with the Bound Bow spell) pretty dangerous.

Alchemy's effects might be temporary, yes, but not weaker.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Aysleph]Aysleph[/url] said:[/b]I don't think you can ever make fortify (destruction, conjuration, Magicka, etc) potions that could beat fortify enchanting effects, and since you'll be playing a mage, you have no weapons to apply poisons, and going Melee to apply poison with a dagger is not effective as a mage and using a bow is just awkward unless you're playing a Witchhunter.[/blockquote]

I think we covered this one before, since they're completely different effects, but to continue, it's pretty easy to use a Bound Bow to fire off some poisoned arrows as a mage in lieu of casting a fireball spell, then putting the bow away and casting as normal. The Bound Bow makes ranged Alchemy very viable for a number of mage builds, particularly the sneaky ones.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Aysleph]Aysleph[/url] said:[/b]The only reason to use alchemy over enchanting as a mage is if you're playing a necromancer or something of that sort and using poisons with positive effects to buff your minions.[/blockquote]

Continuing with the Bound Bow alone, you can pretty easily summon a pile of undead and, rather than buff them, inflict all sorts of alchemical damage and status effects on enemies while safely at range. This is all with only ONE spell school. What if you also dip into Destruction? A few arrows with poisons of Weakness to Shock, then a Fortify Destruction Spell, and then a few thrown Lightning Bolts will deal out some massive damage, and Restore/Fortify/Regen Magicka potions are very easy to craft.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Aysleph]Aysleph[/url] said:[/b]In addition to not being as strong, it's also just temporary and more costly. For enchanting, you just find the enchant, get a soul gem, enchant and then you'll have that for the rest of your gameplay, but for alchemy, you have to constantly find, craft, and drink potions which can be a hassle and take a huge impact on your gold.[/blockquote]

For Alchemy, you can find nearly all of your ingredients on the ground for free, if you know where to look. Also, you can take potions you've made from gathered flowers and roots and sell them twenty times over before you locate a Soul Gem and an item you're willing to part with for Septims. You can literally make money out of random ingredients you find lying around, and increase your Alchemy skill for doing so. In fact, sometimes the hard part about Alchemy is knowing when you're breaking the game's economy with potions.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Aysleph]Aysleph[/url] said:[/b]Should I use enchanting or alchemy for my upcoming playthrough as a witchhunter?[/blockquote]

If you've never tried Alchemy, I recommend it. Your game experience changes when you realize how much power and money exist all around your character in the form of torchbugs, fish, flowers, and netch-guts, and a Witchhunter build is actually one that can make the most out of nearly every aspect of Alchemy, boosting its weapon damage, stealth, magic damage, and even oddball stuff like Carry Weight without making you need to swap gear even once.

It'll also make you appreciate found enchanted gear much more, particularly artifacts. It's often easier to buy or find the right enchanted piece you need than it is to have a reliable supply of potions, even though you can grow most Alchemy ingredients in a Hearthfire Home.

There is definitely a plus side to Enchantment's fire-and-forget, static nature, but I don't think that makes it stronger than Alchemy. They're simply different, with different pros and cons. Why not try something new?

I like a lot of what you've said above, Mercurias, and one more thing. I play some mages with a concept Golden Fool and I are hashiing out called the "True Atronach", which is a lack of any sort of magic regen for a character who selects the atronach stone. Alchemy has become a part of the build as a source of replenishing magicka. It's a different approach for a mage and... if you're playing a "good" mage, you may also not be into messing around with souls and souls trapped in gems forever put into the soul cairn. But that flower on the side of the road that a deer would probably eat anyway? 

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/ShinJin]ShinJin[/url] said:[/b]

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Aysleph]Aysleph[/url] said:[/b]Should I use enchanting or alchemy for my upcoming playthrough as a witchhunter?[/blockquote]

In the interest of full disclosure, I should probably mention that I personally favor Enchanting over Alchemy for most of the reasons you've mentioned (in particular the fire-and-forget aspect--enchant it, wear or wield it, and you're done). And for a pure mage, Alchemy's buffs are nice, but you lose all of its damage capabilities if you plan to never wield a weapon. Still, if you run out of juice those poisons will be the only thing that makes your dagger even remotely useful (unless you've got some pretty boss enchantments on those daggers).

That said, some of the builders on the vault that I most look up to favor Alchemy over... well, just about every skill. There is something incredibly versatile about Alchemy that I really like, and for some builds (as much as I hate to admit it) Alchemy fits the roleplay better than Enchanting. Unless your witchunter is an arcane witchunter, Alchemy might very well fit the roleplay better than Enchanting. Also, if you're rocking a crossbow or bow and arrow, Alchemy is absolutely devastating (especially with the Poisoner perk and stacking 'weakness to...' poisons).

So I guess my answer is 'depends' xD

[/blockquote]

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Mercurias]Mercurias[/url] said:[/b]

*cracks knuckles*

Alright. Let's do this.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Aysleph]Aysleph[/url] said:[/b]...I started thinking; when would it ever be beneficial for a mage to choose alchemy over enchanting?[/blockquote]

Many Alchemical Fortification effects are actually funamentally different from their Enchanting archetypes. For example, the Fortify Destruction Enchantment will reduce the overall cost of a spell, while the Fortify Destruction Alchemical effect straight up increases the damage of your destruction magic. Given the number of free Destruction Fortification enchants laying around to be found, investing in a potion that can crank your power output by 40% starts to sound pretty nice.

For the record:

-Fortify Conjuration potions raise the duration on your summons (kind of meh, but sometimes helpful)

-Fortify Alteration increases the duration of Alteration (mildly gamebreaking when you can Paralyze an entire room full of enemies for up to a minute, and I hear this can also affect the Slow Time shout)

-Fortify Illusion increases the level your Illusion spells effect enemies (which is more useful for higher level spells minus the Illusion perks because of math I'll let you read.)

-Fortify Restoration is...Sort of insanely broken in the vanilla game. It boosts the effect of Restoration magic, and most all beneficial effects applied via perks and enchantments are considered to be a Restoration effect. If you play a modded game with an unofficial patch, this is probably instantly repaired, which will limit the usefulness of this in some ways, but still makes it a very nice effect for a Healer type mage, as well as one who wants to Turn Undead or spam the heck out of the stackable DoT from the Poison Rune.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Aysleph]Aysleph[/url] said:[/b]As far as I'm concerned, alchemy is just a weaker and temporary version of enchanting for a mage.[/blockquote]

Nope. There are several very important differences. First, Alchemy effects don't take up an equipment slot, so they can stack on top of existing enchantment effects. Remember that Destruction Fortification thing? It's easy to wear a Novice Robe of Destruction and chug a Fortify Destruction potion.

Another nice thing about Alchemy effects stacking on top of equipment? No need to swap out weapons or gear to gain new effects.

Also, potions and poisons have effects which are otherwise difficult to manage or take significant perk investment to acquire through normal magic. Wanna be an Alteration Witchhunter and Paralyze enemies while you shoot 'em full of arrows, but disappointed that Paralyze is an expert level spell? You can gather a whole lot of Canis Root, Swamp Fungal Pods, and Imp Stool without even having to try, then apply a Paralysis poison to your arrows. Want to sneak a little better, but no perks in Illusion? Chug a Fortify Sneak potion made from Abacean Longfin and Purple Mountain Flowers, which are easy to find, and then down an Invisibility potion made from Nirnroot and a Luna Moth Wing.

Some effects, like Weakness to Shock/Fire/Frost/Magic/Poison, can only be found via alchemy, which makes a build that can utilize them (e.g., a Witchhunter or even an Adept Conjuration mage with the Bound Bow spell) pretty dangerous.

Alchemy's effects might be temporary, yes, but not weaker.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Aysleph]Aysleph[/url] said:[/b]I don't think you can ever make fortify (destruction, conjuration, Magicka, etc) potions that could beat fortify enchanting effects, and since you'll be playing a mage, you have no weapons to apply poisons, and going Melee to apply poison with a dagger is not effective as a mage and using a bow is just awkward unless you're playing a Witchhunter.[/blockquote]

I think we covered this one before, since they're completely different effects, but to continue, it's pretty easy to use a Bound Bow to fire off some poisoned arrows as a mage in lieu of casting a fireball spell, then putting the bow away and casting as normal. The Bound Bow makes ranged Alchemy very viable for a number of mage builds, particularly the sneaky ones.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Aysleph]Aysleph[/url] said:[/b]The only reason to use alchemy over enchanting as a mage is if you're playing a necromancer or something of that sort and using poisons with positive effects to buff your minions.[/blockquote]

Continuing with the Bound Bow alone, you can pretty easily summon a pile of undead and, rather than buff them, inflict all sorts of alchemical damage and status effects on enemies while safely at range. This is all with only ONE spell school. What if you also dip into Destruction? A few arrows with poisons of Weakness to Shock, then a Fortify Destruction Spell, and then a few thrown Lightning Bolts will deal out some massive damage, and Restore/Fortify/Regen Magicka potions are very easy to craft.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Aysleph]Aysleph[/url] said:[/b]In addition to not being as strong, it's also just temporary and more costly. For enchanting, you just find the enchant, get a soul gem, enchant and then you'll have that for the rest of your gameplay, but for alchemy, you have to constantly find, craft, and drink potions which can be a hassle and take a huge impact on your gold.[/blockquote]

For Alchemy, you can find nearly all of your ingredients on the ground for free, if you know where to look. Also, you can take potions you've made from gathered flowers and roots and sell them twenty times over before you locate a Soul Gem and an item you're willing to part with for Septims. You can literally make money out of random ingredients you find lying around, and increase your Alchemy skill for doing so. In fact, sometimes the hard part about Alchemy is knowing when you're breaking the game's economy with potions.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Aysleph]Aysleph[/url] said:[/b]Should I use enchanting or alchemy for my upcoming playthrough as a witchhunter?[/blockquote]

If you've never tried Alchemy, I recommend it. Your game experience changes when you realize how much power and money exist all around your character in the form of torchbugs, fish, flowers, and netch-guts, and a Witchhunter build is actually one that can make the most out of nearly every aspect of Alchemy, boosting its weapon damage, stealth, magic damage, and even oddball stuff like Carry Weight without making you need to swap gear even once.

It'll also make you appreciate found enchanted gear much more, particularly artifacts. It's often easier to buy or find the right enchanted piece you need than it is to have a reliable supply of potions, even though you can grow most Alchemy ingredients in a Hearthfire Home.

There is definitely a plus side to Enchantment's fire-and-forget, static nature, but I don't think that makes it stronger than Alchemy. They're simply different, with different pros and cons. Why not try something new?

[/blockquote]

thanks for the input and the lengthy explanation, it really helps! I decided on alchemy in the beginning, but then wasn't sure if I should use enchanting or alchemy, but I guess I'll stick with alchemy. 

Another cool-ish Alchemy factoid which really doesn't have a lot of relevance to a Witchhunter is that Fortify Destruction potions also expand the area of effect of Cloak Spells, so that tiny and not-so-useful aura from Cloak of fire? Chug a Fortify Destruction potion and have things out of melee range still eating damage from the heat of your fire cloak (note: This doesn't change the animation of the spell at all). Fortify Destruction Potions also amp the damage of Destruction Runes and Walls, which aren't normally affected by the Augmented Flame/Frost/Shock perks in the Destruction line. A lot of this has been used in order to make one of the coolest builds in the site's history.

Oh! And another added benefit is that their affects can be added right from the menu, so if you manage to slap the inventory button just before a fatal blow, you can suck potions to heal yourself until you can soak the damage without dying.

But for Witchhunters? Oh yeah, you can get a whole lot done with Alchemicals. My personal favorite tactic, as stated before, is in combining Fortify Destruction on yourself and Weakness Shock/Frost/Fire on your enemies, but those Weakness poisons also effect enemy resistance to your weapon enchantments, which makes combining Alchemy and Enchanting massively powerful even if you skip conventional magic altogether.