TES Classics » Discussions

Knights of the Elder Scrolls

• Karver the Lorc

  

  Member
   

  December 19, 2015

  Hey, guys. It´s been some time since we’ve had a discussion here and I think it´s time for another. I´ve been thinking about Knights and Crusaders a lot recently and I think that it raises some interesting questions to talk about. I mean, the Elder Scrolls don´t have a Paladin class, but both the Knight and Crusader often fit this category of holy warrior. So what makes these two classes stand apart from the Paladin of other fantasy games and stories and how do you play them?

  

  So, let´s start with the differences. Oblivion draws a clear line between the Knight and Crusader classes. Let´s look at their descriptions.

  Crusader - A combatant who wields the power of brute strength and medicinal knowledge. Cheating death in every fight, they rely on their keen knowledge of restoration to fight yet again.

  Knight - The most noble of all combatants. Strong in both body and character.

  So Oblivion makes it clear that the Crusader uses Restoration and the Knight doesn´t. He instead focuses on Illusion and Speechcraft, being more of a traditional “Knight in shining armor” while Crusaders seem to be more of a “righteous warrior”. Yet he also uses Destruction.

  Now let´s take a look at Morrowind.

  Crusader - Any heavily armored warrior with spell-casting prowess and a good cause may call himself a Crusader. Crusaders do well simply by doing good as opposed to evil. They hunt monsters and villains, making themselves rich by plunder as they rid the world of evil.

  Knight - Of noble birth, or distinguished in battle or tourney, knights are civilized warriors, schooled in letters and courtesy, governed by the codes of chivalry. In addition to the arts of war, knights study the lore of healing and enchantment.

  I would say that Morrowind fares much better in defining them by roleplay rather than by skills, because both of them have Restoration in their list of skills, though the Knight has it in Minor Skills. And that leads me to my question:

  What makes a Knight in Elder Scrolls?

  Recently I´ve been kinda intrigued by the definition of a Paladin from Pillars of Eternity which says: “Paladins are extremely devoted, often fanatical, soldiers who have pledged themselves to a god, a ruler, a chosen cause or even a way of life.”

  And I myself consider this the best description what a Knight should be. If you think about this sentence, it doesn´t mean that Knights necessarily have to be good and righteous, but they can follow their own creed, needs and desires.

  Their skills aren´t really defined, but I would say they have to know how to fight, because most of the Orders in TES are pretty much military organizations. But more importanty, I believe that the Restoration skill sets apart the Knight from the Crusader, though their cause (let´s say roleplay) can be very similar.

  

  Just look at this guy. I was starting to distinguish Knights and Crusaders by what they devoted themselves to. Knights to a ruler or a chosen cause and Crusaders to a deity or a way of life. But the Knights of the Nine kinda destroyed my illusion.

  I mean, they are pledged to all Nine Divines, so there isn´t really one solitary creed; one way of life. There is just one common cause - to do some good in the world.

  Another examples could be Knights of the Thorn and White Stallion. One is a Knightly Order who was established by Count´s son as more or less drinking club for him and his friends. Wannabe Knights, right? The other is Order established by Count of Leyawiin with singular purpose of hunting down bandits know as Black Bows. So they have pledged themselves to a ruler and cause.

  

  And what about these guys?

   

  The Orsimer follow Malacath and his Code, so they could be considered Knights right? But I would like to point out the Orc Adventurers who appear in dungeons in Oblivion.

   

  Never met them? Well, there is a story behind them. They are Orcs sent to Tamriel by the king of Orsinium to bring riches back to their kingdom. So they are Orcs who pledged themselves to a ruler, who sent them into the world to act as mercenaries and adventurers (I smell an Orc Goldpact Knight here..).

   

  Do you think they can be considered Knights?

   

   

  
  
  

   

  And what about the Ordinators from Morrowind? The relentless military fist of the Tribunal? They act mostly as peacekeepers, but they also actively hunt down Daedra worshipers - at least those who worship the House of Troubles, which means Malacath, Mehrunes Dagon, Sheogorath and Molag Bal.

  Does that make them Knights? Crusaders? I would certainly like to hear your opinion.

  I would like to point towards the Order of the Dragon, as well. The ones accepted into the Order are considered Knights, but you have to note that most of their members are Legion soldiers, because this Order doesn´t have its own military arm. It´s mostly a honorable reward for Legion soldiers who acted with valour. Can they be considered Knights?

  

  And let´s not forget the Blades. The personal bodyguards and spies of the Emperor himself. They pledged themselves to a ruler; they are a military organization with most of them living the ascetic life of monks, mostly devoted to Talos - an Emperor who ascended to godhood. Are they knights?

  And what about Fighters Guild and Blackwood Company? House Redoran maybe? Could they be considered Knights?

  So let´s hear your opinions. What makes a Knight in Elder Scrolls? What makes a Crusader? How they are different from Paladins from other universes or do you consider them all to be one and the same? How do YOU roleplay Knights and Crusaders in TES?

  Hey, guys. It´s been some time since we’ve had a discussion here and I think it´s time for another. I´ve been thinking about Knights and Crusaders a lot recently and I think that it raises some interesting questions to talk about. I mean, the Elder Scrolls don´t have a Paladin class, but both the Knight and Crusader often fit this category of holy warrior. So what makes these two classes stand apart from the Paladin of other fantasy games and stories and how do you play them?

  

  So, let´s start with the differences. Oblivion draws a clear line between the Knight and Crusader classes. Let´s look at their descriptions.

  Crusader - A combatant who wields the power of brute strength and medicinal knowledge. Cheating death in every fight, they rely on their keen knowledge of restoration to fight yet again.

  Knight - The most noble of all combatants. Strong in both body and character.

  So Oblivion makes it clear that the Crusader uses Restoration and the Knight doesn´t. He instead focuses on Illusion and Speechcraft, being more of a traditional “Knight in shining armor” while Crusaders seem to be more of a “righteous warrior”. Yet he also uses Destruction.

  Now let´s take a look at Morrowind.

  Crusader - Any heavily armored warrior with spell-casting prowess and a good cause may call himself a Crusader. Crusaders do well simply by doing good as opposed to evil. They hunt monsters and villains, making themselves rich by plunder as they rid the world of evil.

  Knight - Of noble birth, or distinguished in battle or tourney, knights are civilized warriors, schooled in letters and courtesy, governed by the codes of chivalry. In addition to the arts of war, knights study the lore of healing and enchantment.

  I would say that Morrowind fares much better in defining them by roleplay rather than by skills, because both of them have Restoration in their list of skills, though the Knight has it in Minor Skills. And that leads me to my question:

  What makes a Knight in Elder Scrolls?

  Recently I´ve been kinda intrigued by the definition of a Paladin from Pillars of Eternity which says: “Paladins are extremely devoted, often fanatical, soldiers who have pledged themselves to a god, a ruler, a chosen cause or even a way of life.”

  And I myself consider this the best description what a Knight should be. If you think about this sentence, it doesn´t mean that Knights necessarily have to be good and righteous, but they can follow their own creed, needs and desires.

  Their skills aren´t really defined, but I would say they have to know how to fight, because most of the Orders in TES are pretty much military organizations. But more importanty, I believe that the Restoration skill sets apart the Knight from the Crusader, though their cause (let´s say roleplay) can be very similar.

  

  Just look at this guy. I was starting to distinguish Knights and Crusaders by what they devoted themselves to. Knights to a ruler or a chosen cause and Crusaders to a deity or a way of life. But the Knights of the Nine kinda destroyed my illusion.

  I mean, they are pledged to all Nine Divines, so there isn´t really one solitary creed; one way of life. There is just one common cause - to do some good in the world.

  Another examples could be Knights of the Thorn and White Stallion. One is a Knightly Order who was established by Count´s son as more or less drinking club for him and his friends. Wannabe Knights, right? The other is Order established by Count of Leyawiin with singular purpose of hunting down bandits know as Black Bows. So they have pledged themselves to a ruler and cause.

  

  And what about these guys?

   

  The Orsimer follow Malacath and his Code, so they could be considered Knights right? But I would like to point out the Orc Adventurers who appear in dungeons in Oblivion.

   

  Never met them? Well, there is a story behind them. They are Orcs sent to Tamriel by the king of Orsinium to bring riches back to their kingdom. So they are Orcs who pledged themselves to a ruler, who sent them into the world to act as mercenaries and adventurers (I smell an Orc Goldpact Knight here..).

   

  Do you think they can be considered Knights?

   

   

  
  
  

   

  And what about the Ordinators from Morrowind? The relentless military fist of the Tribunal? They act mostly as peacekeepers, but they also actively hunt down Daedra worshipers - at least those who worship the House of Troubles, which means Malacath, Mehrunes Dagon, Sheogorath and Molag Bal.

  Does that make them Knights? Crusaders? I would certainly like to hear your opinion.

  I would like to point towards the Order of the Dragon, as well. The ones accepted into the Order are considered Knights, but you have to note that most of their members are Legion soldiers, because this Order doesn´t have its own military arm. It´s mostly a honorable reward for Legion soldiers who acted with valour. Can they be considered Knights?

  

  And let´s not forget the Blades. The personal bodyguards and spies of the Emperor himself. They pledged themselves to a ruler; they are a military organization with most of them living the ascetic life of monks, mostly devoted to Talos - an Emperor who ascended to godhood. Are they knights?

  And what about Fighters Guild and Blackwood Company? House Redoran maybe? Could they be considered Knights?

  So let´s hear your opinions. What makes a Knight in Elder Scrolls? What makes a Crusader? How they are different from Paladins from other universes or do you consider them all to be one and the same? How do YOU roleplay Knights and Crusaders in TES?

• ShyGuyWolf

  

  Member
   

  December 19, 2015

  great discussion man, I am thinking a Orc for ESO lately. playing a Knight is fun.

  great discussion man, I am thinking a Orc for ESO lately. playing a Knight is fun.

• Karver the Lorc

  

  Member
   

  December 19, 2015

  To be honest with you guys, I myself haven´t played many "Knights" or paladin types of characters. I always felt that they are way too much simple, with doing as much good as possible. 

  But recently I found that Knights doesn´t have to be good, there can be lot of shades of grey to them. Like my Goldpact Knight. Knight who has some creed, who follows his own moral compass. 

  As I said in here already, I started using this simple line from PoE. "Knights are extremely devoted, often fanatical, soldiers who have pledged themselves to a god, a ruler, a chosen cause or even a way of life.” And it worked for me very well so far. 

  It feels like I suddenly found whole new perspective on world. 

  To be honest with you guys, I myself haven´t played many "Knights" or paladin types of characters. I always felt that they are way too much simple, with doing as much good as possible. 

  But recently I found that Knights doesn´t have to be good, there can be lot of shades of grey to them. Like my Goldpact Knight. Knight who has some creed, who follows his own moral compass. 

  As I said in here already, I started using this simple line from PoE. "Knights are extremely devoted, often fanatical, soldiers who have pledged themselves to a god, a ruler, a chosen cause or even a way of life.” And it worked for me very well so far. 

  It feels like I suddenly found whole new perspective on world. 

• Karver the Lorc

  

  Member
   

  December 19, 2015

  Orc Knight? That´s certainly a great topic for discussion. Can Orcs be considered Knights with all their bluntness and savagery? 

  Of noble birth, or distinguished in battle or tourney, knights are civilized warriors, schooled in letters and courtesy, governed by the codes of chivalry. In addition to the arts of war, knights study the lore of healing and enchantment.

  By Morrowind´s description, it does seem they are not "civilized" enough to be considered Knights.

  Yet, their Code of honor rivals some of the more famous Knightly Orders in Tamriel. 

  So can they be Knights or not?

  Orc Knight? That´s certainly a great topic for discussion. Can Orcs be considered Knights with all their bluntness and savagery? 

  Of noble birth, or distinguished in battle or tourney, knights are civilized warriors, schooled in letters and courtesy, governed by the codes of chivalry. In addition to the arts of war, knights study the lore of healing and enchantment.

  By Morrowind´s description, it does seem they are not "civilized" enough to be considered Knights.

  Yet, their Code of honor rivals some of the more famous Knightly Orders in Tamriel. 

  So can they be Knights or not?

• ShyGuyWolf

  

  Member
   

  December 19, 2015

  I think so, Jarvurak(Jake) is one in a way. he fights for both the Companions and DawnGuard, and he does travel a lot for research for Blacksmithing ingredients and techniques from around Tamreil.

  I think so, Jarvurak(Jake) is one in a way. he fights for both the Companions and DawnGuard, and he does travel a lot for research for Blacksmithing ingredients and techniques from around Tamreil.

• The Long-Chapper

  

  Member
   

  December 19, 2015

  Argh, I love this topic and man, I really struggled with these choices when I saw Oblivion's definitions of both, Morrowind, also IMO, got it better.  To be honest, I used the dungeons and dragons definition of Paladin. Made my life so much easier, especially when I decided to ignore later editions of the game. 

  The paladin is a holy knight, crusading in the name of good and order, and is a divine spellcaster. From 1st through 3rd edition, paladins were required to maintain the Lawful Good alignment.

  It is similar to the definition you used Pillars of Eternty, minus, interestingly enough, the fanatic part. I do like the affiliation to a patron god. Definitely. Huge selling point for me. 

  I think if we consider the definitions you set out, then yes the Blade definitely count as knights and perhaps even becoming crusaders, as they are very much tied to a specific cause, especially during and after the Great War. Also, they go on these quests later, finding the bits of the Numidium. This sticks out to me. That's a very Holy grail, crusadey thing to do, IMO.  Continuing your argument, if an Orc assumes a combat role as you explained for the glory of Orsinium, then he assumes a knightly persona, as do many of the other groups you mentioned, though to varying degrees of success. Fighter's guild, IMO, pushes it a bit, probably because moral alignment is not so important for them and I consider moral alignment pretty important. Though, by no means am I an expert in any of the Classics Guilds, as I've not played them much. Please feel free to correct the wrongness. I've only researched enough of the guilds in Oblivion and Morrowind to aid in my writing. 

  I do, for a second, want to look at the Medieval use of the Crusader. They fought in the wars in the Holy land and then returned to their own homes and assumed their regular lives. Based on this, could we perhaps consider that their condition is a more temporary one whereas the Knight's is more permanent; a title in addition to a class? A Crusader could have been a Knight at that time, but was a Knight necessarily a Crusader? You had the Peasant's Crusade, and even the Children's Crusade, and none of them were knights, well their general population was not. Just a thought, though I do completely understand that were are talking about Elder Scrolls classes not Medieval classes. Just thought I throw that in though. I always think that crusading involves a cause or something like that. Being a knight may not necessarily involve a crusade. 

  I do think that it's interesting that Morrowind mentions Noble birth, though they did qualify in their definition that you could become a knight through battle prowess as well. 

  You asked me where Albee was? LOL, he's complicated.  If I played him in Oblivion right now, I think I'd end up with a weird hybrid class based on his skills. He'd have elements of the following; Crusader, Knight, and the Witchhunter. The archery throws almost everything off, as it's not a skillset associated with a knight or a Crusader. But it is the weapon of Auri-El and I would expect that a Paladin of Auri-El would be proficient in the weapon of his patron God. Also, part of it is that Requiem introduces spells into Skyrim's  Restoration school that are really under the traditional Mysticism school of Morrowind and Oblivion. The witchhunter uses that school. 

  To be honest, I've not encountered many issues roleplaying a Paladin in Elder Scrolls, though again, my experience is rather limited. You can avoid quests and even fail some of them. You don't need poison to defeat your foes and you don't need sneak. It's plenty easy to NOT loot the dead in tombs and there are enough fetch quests for the local populace to keep one entertained. With some creativity, I've managed to get through the entire game that I played without lying, without using poison, and without sneaking. It's resulted in VERY different gameplay. I even let enemies attack first. I actually found the roleplay refreshing as I wasn't so preoccupied with getting the best gear or doing quests because I needed to. Quests sort of fell into my lap. There was no "okay to get armor set A, I need to do Quest B, which means I go to location C."  I did struggle with crime a bit, but that was due to game bugs, not my actions. 

  Fun topic, Karver. Me likey. 

  Argh, I love this topic and man, I really struggled with these choices when I saw Oblivion's definitions of both, Morrowind, also IMO, got it better.  To be honest, I used the dungeons and dragons definition of Paladin. Made my life so much easier, especially when I decided to ignore later editions of the game. 

  The paladin is a holy knight, crusading in the name of good and order, and is a divine spellcaster. From 1st through 3rd edition, paladins were required to maintain the Lawful Good alignment.

  It is similar to the definition you used Pillars of Eternty, minus, interestingly enough, the fanatic part. I do like the affiliation to a patron god. Definitely. Huge selling point for me. 

  I think if we consider the definitions you set out, then yes the Blade definitely count as knights and perhaps even becoming crusaders, as they are very much tied to a specific cause, especially during and after the Great War. Also, they go on these quests later, finding the bits of the Numidium. This sticks out to me. That's a very Holy grail, crusadey thing to do, IMO.  Continuing your argument, if an Orc assumes a combat role as you explained for the glory of Orsinium, then he assumes a knightly persona, as do many of the other groups you mentioned, though to varying degrees of success. Fighter's guild, IMO, pushes it a bit, probably because moral alignment is not so important for them and I consider moral alignment pretty important. Though, by no means am I an expert in any of the Classics Guilds, as I've not played them much. Please feel free to correct the wrongness. I've only researched enough of the guilds in Oblivion and Morrowind to aid in my writing. 

  I do, for a second, want to look at the Medieval use of the Crusader. They fought in the wars in the Holy land and then returned to their own homes and assumed their regular lives. Based on this, could we perhaps consider that their condition is a more temporary one whereas the Knight's is more permanent; a title in addition to a class? A Crusader could have been a Knight at that time, but was a Knight necessarily a Crusader? You had the Peasant's Crusade, and even the Children's Crusade, and none of them were knights, well their general population was not. Just a thought, though I do completely understand that were are talking about Elder Scrolls classes not Medieval classes. Just thought I throw that in though. I always think that crusading involves a cause or something like that. Being a knight may not necessarily involve a crusade. 

  I do think that it's interesting that Morrowind mentions Noble birth, though they did qualify in their definition that you could become a knight through battle prowess as well. 

  You asked me where Albee was? LOL, he's complicated.  If I played him in Oblivion right now, I think I'd end up with a weird hybrid class based on his skills. He'd have elements of the following; Crusader, Knight, and the Witchhunter. The archery throws almost everything off, as it's not a skillset associated with a knight or a Crusader. But it is the weapon of Auri-El and I would expect that a Paladin of Auri-El would be proficient in the weapon of his patron God. Also, part of it is that Requiem introduces spells into Skyrim's  Restoration school that are really under the traditional Mysticism school of Morrowind and Oblivion. The witchhunter uses that school. 

  To be honest, I've not encountered many issues roleplaying a Paladin in Elder Scrolls, though again, my experience is rather limited. You can avoid quests and even fail some of them. You don't need poison to defeat your foes and you don't need sneak. It's plenty easy to NOT loot the dead in tombs and there are enough fetch quests for the local populace to keep one entertained. With some creativity, I've managed to get through the entire game that I played without lying, without using poison, and without sneaking. It's resulted in VERY different gameplay. I even let enemies attack first. I actually found the roleplay refreshing as I wasn't so preoccupied with getting the best gear or doing quests because I needed to. Quests sort of fell into my lap. There was no "okay to get armor set A, I need to do Quest B, which means I go to location C."  I did struggle with crime a bit, but that was due to game bugs, not my actions. 

  Fun topic, Karver. Me likey. 

• Karver the Lorc

  

  Member
   

  December 19, 2015

  To expand on the PoE´s definition:

  “ Paladins are martial zealots, devoted to a god, a ruler, or even a way of life. They can be found in any culture where a fanatical group of like-minded individuals have formed a warrior society dedicated to advancing their cause. Among those aligned to their worldview, paladins are viewed with respect and admiration, if a bit of fear. Many paladins hold leadership positions in armies and mercenary companies, but in the heat of battle their fanaticism often overrules the chain of command - and common sense. ”
  
  

  Paladins are extremely devoted, often fanatical, soldiers who have pledged themselves to a chosen cause, combining the zeal of a priest with the ascetic discipline of a monk. They have founded many elite fighting forces, from the original Darcozzi Paladini, a two thousand year-old order of palace guards, to the fledgling Fellows of St. Waidwen Martyr, zealous defenders of the Godhammer pilgrim trail. Often found at the vanguard of many conflicts, paladins are natural leaders and have the ability to quickly assist their allies with targeted commands. A paladin's commands can stave off impending death, overcome fatigue, or hasten the charge to close breached defenses. And though they are not always pledged to the service of a god or gods, paladins are so singularly focused on their chosen cause that their souls are continually creating a wellspring of spiritual energy from which they can blast groups of foes in their immediate vicinity. Despite their often stoic presence and explosive combat style, paladins work best alongside allies. When isolated, they can be vulnerable, especially against singular powerful foes.

  To expand on the PoE´s definition:

  “ Paladins are martial zealots, devoted to a god, a ruler, or even a way of life. They can be found in any culture where a fanatical group of like-minded individuals have formed a warrior society dedicated to advancing their cause. Among those aligned to their worldview, paladins are viewed with respect and admiration, if a bit of fear. Many paladins hold leadership positions in armies and mercenary companies, but in the heat of battle their fanaticism often overrules the chain of command - and common sense. ”
  
  

  Paladins are extremely devoted, often fanatical, soldiers who have pledged themselves to a chosen cause, combining the zeal of a priest with the ascetic discipline of a monk. They have founded many elite fighting forces, from the original Darcozzi Paladini, a two thousand year-old order of palace guards, to the fledgling Fellows of St. Waidwen Martyr, zealous defenders of the Godhammer pilgrim trail. Often found at the vanguard of many conflicts, paladins are natural leaders and have the ability to quickly assist their allies with targeted commands. A paladin's commands can stave off impending death, overcome fatigue, or hasten the charge to close breached defenses. And though they are not always pledged to the service of a god or gods, paladins are so singularly focused on their chosen cause that their souls are continually creating a wellspring of spiritual energy from which they can blast groups of foes in their immediate vicinity. Despite their often stoic presence and explosive combat style, paladins work best alongside allies. When isolated, they can be vulnerable, especially against singular powerful foes.

• Karver the Lorc

  

  Member
   

  December 19, 2015

  Now, I quite liked how you brought up the Crusaders. But they are very hard to fit anywhere. You see, they were priests and monks in the first place, most of them took vows of celibacy and other vows I don´t want to know about. But then they took arms and became a knight-priest order set to - let´s just say - "purge the Holy Land". 

  And while they were there, it was quite common among Crusaders to commit atrocities on their enemies but also lay with women (and men), drink and other things. 

  So we have a devotion to god, devotion to a priestly life and then we have a devotion to a cause, and in the end, they were no different from other "knights" and soldiers. They just waved their flag of the god more eagerly. 

  We could for example compare them to...Order of Diagna probably. They took arms and set siege to Orsinium and they didn´t leave until it was done. Their purpose was to eradicate Orcs (I´m quite simplifying it here) and they were a Knightly order. 

  What I´m trying to say here, that Knight, Crusader and Paladin doesn´t have to mean they are good and their hands are clean. 

  But I like that thing about Crusader needing a crusade. So Knight can turn into Crusader and back again, technically. But what crusade is worth it in the universe of TES? Blades looking for the Numidium part or Tiber´s Totem. Or for example, Tiber Septim´s armor in Oblivion could be considered a crusade (though they send a guy who will be called Champion of Cyrodiil one day)

  And Albee´s not fanatical? Well, you said that yourself many times. He follows one of the most strict Orders in Tamriel and very often, he follows it´s principles relentlessly. That could be considered fanatical. I know that later he breaks some of his vows, but until then...isn´t that little bit fanatical? 

  Now, I quite liked how you brought up the Crusaders. But they are very hard to fit anywhere. You see, they were priests and monks in the first place, most of them took vows of celibacy and other vows I don´t want to know about. But then they took arms and became a knight-priest order set to - let´s just say - "purge the Holy Land". 

  And while they were there, it was quite common among Crusaders to commit atrocities on their enemies but also lay with women (and men), drink and other things. 

  So we have a devotion to god, devotion to a priestly life and then we have a devotion to a cause, and in the end, they were no different from other "knights" and soldiers. They just waved their flag of the god more eagerly. 

  We could for example compare them to...Order of Diagna probably. They took arms and set siege to Orsinium and they didn´t leave until it was done. Their purpose was to eradicate Orcs (I´m quite simplifying it here) and they were a Knightly order. 

  What I´m trying to say here, that Knight, Crusader and Paladin doesn´t have to mean they are good and their hands are clean. 

  But I like that thing about Crusader needing a crusade. So Knight can turn into Crusader and back again, technically. But what crusade is worth it in the universe of TES? Blades looking for the Numidium part or Tiber´s Totem. Or for example, Tiber Septim´s armor in Oblivion could be considered a crusade (though they send a guy who will be called Champion of Cyrodiil one day)

  And Albee´s not fanatical? Well, you said that yourself many times. He follows one of the most strict Orders in Tamriel and very often, he follows it´s principles relentlessly. That could be considered fanatical. I know that later he breaks some of his vows, but until then...isn´t that little bit fanatical? 

• The Long-Chapper

  

  Member
   

  December 19, 2015

  I guess what we should understand is that sometimes a negative connotation can be assigned to the words "fanatic" and "zealot".  I think the difference is that Aelberon while very devout, doesn't cloud himself so much that his devotion causes him to do evil acts. Does that make sense? I can totally see what you're saying though. It is fanatical, but not in a way that is destructive to innocents, I guess. In fact, lol, his fanaticism, if anything, is often destructive to himself, while others benefit. He's a strange bird. 

  I'd hate to use the current examples of Religious fanaticism and crusading that is being carried out in our modern era, but that is what I think of when I think fanatic and zealot. And we know he's definitely not doing any of that. Perhaps that is an error in my own thinking or society's such heavy misuse of those two words that it clouds how we perceive these words now. They used to not have such a negative connotation. Better words for him, IMO, would be devout or pious because he doesn't really let his zeal cause harm, unless you are doing harm. 

  Civil War is a crusade that pops right into mind as does Dawnguard, but that's just Skyrim. 

  I guess what we should understand is that sometimes a negative connotation can be assigned to the words "fanatic" and "zealot".  I think the difference is that Aelberon while very devout, doesn't cloud himself so much that his devotion causes him to do evil acts. Does that make sense? I can totally see what you're saying though. It is fanatical, but not in a way that is destructive to innocents, I guess. In fact, lol, his fanaticism, if anything, is often destructive to himself, while others benefit. He's a strange bird. 

  I'd hate to use the current examples of Religious fanaticism and crusading that is being carried out in our modern era, but that is what I think of when I think fanatic and zealot. And we know he's definitely not doing any of that. Perhaps that is an error in my own thinking or society's such heavy misuse of those two words that it clouds how we perceive these words now. They used to not have such a negative connotation. Better words for him, IMO, would be devout or pious because he doesn't really let his zeal cause harm, unless you are doing harm. 

  Civil War is a crusade that pops right into mind as does Dawnguard, but that's just Skyrim. 

• Karver the Lorc

  

  Member
   

  December 19, 2015

  There is certainly a negative sound to words like "fanatic" and "zealot" and more often it is true than not. Take Mythic Dawn for example. They are really destructive because they believe that world needs to be reborn by burning and they will walk it as gods. And they also believe that after their death, the Paradise awaits them (which is true, muhaha).

  So can we consider them Knights or Crusaders?

  And then take Blades for example. They fanaticaly follow and protect the Dragonborn Emperor. 

  It goes down to the interpretation of fanaticism. Does it mean that one has to follow blindly? Or does it mean overcoming your own doubts and leap forward nevertheless? Or something else?

  There is certainly a negative sound to words like "fanatic" and "zealot" and more often it is true than not. Take Mythic Dawn for example. They are really destructive because they believe that world needs to be reborn by burning and they will walk it as gods. And they also believe that after their death, the Paradise awaits them (which is true, muhaha).

  So can we consider them Knights or Crusaders?

  And then take Blades for example. They fanaticaly follow and protect the Dragonborn Emperor. 

  It goes down to the interpretation of fanaticism. Does it mean that one has to follow blindly? Or does it mean overcoming your own doubts and leap forward nevertheless? Or something else?