Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions


What would other Orcs think of Durak?

  • Member
    September 15

    He's not a city Orc -- but he left Orc society. He had two wives killed, so we know he was chief. Can chiefs just leave like that? How would all the groups of orcs think of him? 

  • September 16

    Hmm. Though question. Difficult answer. I would look for answer in the Code of Malacath, in its various points.

    1. He 'let' his wives die, most likely get turned to vampires. (Me and Lis theorized that the wives killed his tribe too, but that´s just theory) = Weak

    2. He left the Stronghold while being chief. Meaning? No duel for leadership, so that means the Orcs in the stronghold had to fight each other to figure out who´s the strongest which in turn makes the tribe weaker = weak

    3. Vampires kill his wives. Durak puts a Blood Price on the vampires, goes and starts killing. Revenge = Pleases Malacath.

    4. Gets shit done on his own = Pleases Malacath. 

    So mixed feelings I suppose. Some might not like him, some might think he´s looking for Good Death, so he´s cool and such. 

  • Member
    September 16
    Hmm... according to the code of mauloch, if durak was a chieftain, then his only reason for joining the dawnguard would be: The requirement that insults to honor must be avenged The blood price practice. The logical argument can be made that as chieftain, if one's own Wife is killed, not only is it a blood price that must be paid in return but it's also an insult to his honor, due to lack of strength to save his wives. That would mean stepping down by default via challenges from other orcs within the stronghold. However, regardless of challenges from other orcs for leadership, durak might have either put that on hold to avenge his honor by seeking the vamps that did it to pay the blood price and revenge... or he might have settled the duel, won it and then sought the dawn guard. After all, if he had lost, he would have either died or been cast out, which would not fit with his dialogue of claiming to be chief of the stronghold . That said, I would've preffered his backstory to have been fleshed out even more... would make for a great addition as a follower.
  • September 16

    It's hard to tell if we don't know what really hapened at his stronghold and tribe but I think what Lorc and Warlocksg said covered it pretty much.

    That being said if he just set out like that even though he was still chieftain to avenge his wives (assuming his tribe survived) and make those "bloodsucking scum" pay the blood price that would be kinda cool and romantic in a sad(?) and orcish way! Also agree with Warlocksg that some more depth into his backstory would be be great!

  • September 16

    Duvain said:

    It's hard to tell if we don't know what really hapened at his stronghold and tribe but I think what Lorc and Warlocksg said covered it pretty much.

    That being said if he just set out like that even though he was still chieftain to avenge his wives (assuming his tribe survived) and make those "bloodsucking scum" pay the blood price that would be kinda cool and romantic in a sad(?) and orcish way! Also agree with Warlocksg that some more depth into his backstory would be be great!

    The fate of Durak's tribe is something that I do cover in Straag, based on the theories that Karver and I have come up with, though, lol, his memory is sketchy. No, I don't think Durak's wives actually became vampires, I think they were killed. I think Orcs are direct enough that they'd say exactly what happened. Well, lol, except the Greenskin. He's not direct about anything. :D

  • Member
    September 16

    The Lorc of Flowers said:

    Hmm. Though question. Difficult answer. I would look for answer in the Code of Malacath, in its various points.

    1. He 'let' his wives die, most likely get turned to vampires. (Me and Lis theorized that the wives killed his tribe too, but that´s just theory) = Weak

    2. He left the Stronghold while being chief. Meaning? No duel for leadership, so that means the Orcs in the stronghold had to fight each other to figure out who´s the strongest which in turn makes the tribe weaker = weak

    3. Vampires kill his wives. Durak puts a Blood Price on the vampires, goes and starts killing. Revenge = Pleases Malacath.

    4. Gets shit done on his own = Pleases Malacath. 

    So mixed feelings I suppose. Some might not like him, some might think he´s looking for Good Death, so he´s cool and such. 

    Interesting, thanks Karver. He's clearly stil devoted to his people, especially as he upholds the standards of Bloodkin induction and won't just do it all willy nilly. What really interests me about all that though is the simultaneous presence of individualistic and collectivist ideas in Malacath's code. 

    Warlocksg said: Hmm... according to the code of mauloch, if durak was a chieftain, then his only reason for joining the dawnguard would be: The requirement that insults to honor must be avenged The blood price practice. The logical argument can be made that as chieftain, if one's own Wife is killed, not only is it a blood price that must be paid in return but it's also an insult to his honor, due to lack of strength to save his wives. That would mean stepping down by default via challenges from other orcs within the stronghold. However, regardless of challenges from other orcs for leadership, durak might have either put that on hold to avenge his honor by seeking the vamps that did it to pay the blood price and revenge... or he might have settled the duel, won it and then sought the dawn guard. After all, if he had lost, he would have either died or been cast out, which would not fit with his dialogue of claiming to be chief of the stronghold . That said, I would've preffered his backstory to have been fleshed out even more... would make for a great addition as a follower.

    This is what really got me about his dialogue. He spoke as if he is still chieftain, which suggests to me that they're allowed to go out on revenge quests. I'm not sure what specifically chieftains actually do, in all honesty. I'm guessing the role is pretty important since they "lead" the tribes. 

    Karver? Insight? 

    Edit: Or anyone, but Karver is kinda the resident expert. All insight is appreciated though. 

  • September 17

    Legion said:

    This is what really got me about his dialogue. He spoke as if he is still chieftain, which suggests to me that they're allowed to go out on revenge quests. I'm not sure what specifically chieftains actually do, in all honesty. I'm guessing the role is pretty important since they "lead" the tribes. 

    Karver? Insight? 

    Edit: Or anyone, but Karver is kinda the resident expert. All insight is appreciated though. 

    Chieftains. Well... chieftains actually do squat. Or they don´t have to do squat, but they can. 'Cause the day to day business is actually handled by chieftain´s wives so that the chieftain can go eating, drinking and brawling or whatever. Doesn´t mean that the chieftain can´t be participating in the day to day business more. But he definitely is leading during times of war, or raids if you want. Basicaly a warlord. So while the chieftain isn´t really essential for day to day business, he is essential for this other war and probably honor related things.

    For me personally, it is a very tough sell for him still being a chieftain even when he´s away from the tribe. If his wives got killed and he left, there are no de-facto rulers. If he´d take his tribe with him, then yeah, that would be reasonable. But the chieftain going on a revenge spree is sort of irresponsible, making the tribe weaker (which is a big thing among Orcs - what actions can make the tribe stronger or weaker?)

    On the other hand though, there´s one thing that might be making it possible: To become a chieftain, you have to kill the previous one. Once you are a chieftain, you are a chieftain until you´re killed in battle or by your successor. So...technically, because Durak is still alive he is a chief, even though his tribe might already have a new one. 

     

  • Member
    September 18

    The Lorc of Flowers said:

    Legion said:

    This is what really got me about his dialogue. He spoke as if he is still chieftain, which suggests to me that they're allowed to go out on revenge quests. I'm not sure what specifically chieftains actually do, in all honesty. I'm guessing the role is pretty important since they "lead" the tribes. 

    Karver? Insight? 

    Edit: Or anyone, but Karver is kinda the resident expert. All insight is appreciated though. 

    Chieftains. Well... chieftains actually do squat. Or they don´t have to do squat, but they can. 'Cause the day to day business is actually handled by chieftain´s wives so that the chieftain can go eating, drinking and brawling or whatever. Doesn´t mean that the chieftain can´t be participating in the day to day business more. But he definitely is leading during times of war, or raids if you want. Basicaly a warlord. So while the chieftain isn´t really essential for day to day business, he is essential for this other war and probably honor related things.

    For me personally, it is a very tough sell for him still being a chieftain even when he´s away from the tribe. If his wives got killed and he left, there are no de-facto rulers. If he´d take his tribe with him, then yeah, that would be reasonable. But the chieftain going on a revenge spree is sort of irresponsible, making the tribe weaker (which is a big thing among Orcs - what actions can make the tribe stronger or weaker?)

    On the other hand though, there´s one thing that might be making it possible: To become a chieftain, you have to kill the previous one. Once you are a chieftain, you are a chieftain until you´re killed in battle or by your successor. So...technically, because Durak is still alive he is a chief, even though his tribe might already have a new one. 

     

     

    True... however, like you correctly mentioned, the code of mauloch would not allow for a new chief to take over, unless the old chief is bested in combat and/or dead. Aside from Durak's dialogue, let's make a reference to another orc within Skyrim, the old orc who seeks a good death. Remeber that he was once a chieftain, who lost the challenge and seeking death.

    Given that Durak's dialogue indicates that he is still chieftain, is there a possibility that the wise woman is currently running the stronghold, in the absence of the chieftain?

  • September 18

    Warlocksg said:

    True... however, like you correctly mentioned, the code of mauloch would not allow for a new chief to take over, unless the old chief is bested in combat and/or dead. Aside from Durak's dialogue, let's make a reference to another orc within Skyrim, the old orc who seeks a good death. Remeber that he was once a chieftain, who lost the challenge and seeking death.

    Given that Durak's dialogue indicates that he is still chieftain, is there a possibility that the wise woman is currently running the stronghold, in the absence of the chieftain?

    Incorrect. This is the Old Orc´s dialogue in Skyrim: 

    "My time has come. I am old. Too old to become chief. It would be wrong for me to take wives at this age. So I will die.

    The Old Orc wasn´t a chieftain, and he won´t be cause he´s too old.

    So I don´t think Durak´s tribe is without a chieftain, waiting for him. They need a new chief, for while Durak´s vengeance is honorable, it certainly isn´t a short term one. He is more likely to find a Good Death before taking his revenge on vampires. Which is why I find it so inconsistent. If he´d left just for few months the wives would rule instead of him - all wives, not only one. But since he could be gone for years... no chieftain= tribe is weaker. No one else is putting pups into the wives´ ovens. Yeah, just think about that. Waiting for a chieftain to come back while your tribe is slowly but steadily dying out? Doesn´t make sense. If he leaves, they have to appoint a new chieftain. 

    Now if he´d took his whole tribe on a war path, that would be a different.

    Another thing - while it might seem as a minor one - is his lack of surname. Just Durak. He should have a surname saying where he´s from. And since he doesn´t it could be an indication he left that life behind. 

     

  • September 18
    Also, since Lore doesn't really state it, it's not so difficult to figure out what happens when chief dies or leaves. The others have to figure out who of them is the strongest. And how Orcs figure out that? ;) Or there could be an intervention from Malacath, or maybe the wise-woman would try to steer the events somewhere. Becoming a chieftain by winning a duel with the old chief can't really be the only way, because when that fails - like chief dies or leaves - there has to be a backup plan.