Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions


Lore: Which Way Do You Swing?

Tags: #Discussion 
  • Member
    May 29

    Draco Mors said:

    No, I haven't seen anything like that on here, but I have elsewhere. I won't hold back on my Lorkhan discussion because I found him to be the fascinating Aedra of them all and theory isn't fully fleshed out and takes in real life religions to help my theory on him, which something I know some people in the Lore community, not this one, to have a fit.

    I get that, but what the Lore of him archiving CHIM and all of that business? Or how he is one of three shards of the Ash King or whatever? I mean the Skyrim just gives the very basic Lore of Talos, and yet there is a whole lot more stuff to learn about. Bethesda also has a problem of retconning Lore also, because in Daggerfall Mannimarco ascends to Godhood, and yet it gets retcon in Oblivion, so which is right.? Did he become the Necromancer's Moon and became a God or nah? 

    If you get more and more sources though wouldn't end up making it more confusing or even a higher chance of items being retconned? I know it seems like I bringing up more questions than answers, but there are, to me atleast, a lot of what ifs.

    "Draco" is it? Nice :) Ok, good to know you have never seen any attcaking going on, that's good to hear. Lore fans, like any other, tend to be passionate, but I like knowing that same passion hasn't overflowed to cause a mess.

    Right, those are some big questions. I can dive into answering them, but I am accutely aware that in doing so I would be undermining our Lore Group Host's work, as addressing the subject really ought to be it's own post. So, what I'll do is link you to The Importance of Talos and urge you to scroll down to the section called The Enantiomorph, and CHIM and Talos the Tower of Man.

    A lot of TES lore and how it is presented is complicated because in the old days it relied a lot on fan-dev communication. The writers were a big part of the lore community and used to do lots interaction, from Ask Me Anything interviews to forum RP games in which anwers to questions were given. Things have changed a bit, but the sources remain.

    Also, TES has a habit of using these out of game activities and expanding upon them. I have two examples that are easy to explain. The first is Heimskr's speech:

    " Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you"

    This comes from an oog game source called The Many-Headed Talos written by MK. By adding it to the game, it is now endorsed. How one approaches the sources or argues canonicity becomes irrelevant, as a source is a source regardless of whether it appears in-game.

    The second example is the Painted Cow sacrificial offering to giants we see in TES V, which comes from 911th Cow, another oog book.

    We all try not to take it to heart that only MK can save Skyrim from the trash heap - but I can say that even without directly writing any books, I'd say there's more of his influence on Skyrim than Oblivion. Probably a lot more - if you look at the chapter from the PGE on Skyrim, (pretty sure that was one of his - I can't remember any more who wrote which one, it's Bilbo and Strider all over again), and that chapter is the foundation for the whole setting. And if you look really hard, you might even find a painted cow. (No comment on flying whales.) Kurt Kuhlmann

    You might find the short FAQ post interesting :)

    On the subject of Manny Marco, I think we have a post somewhere which really goes into the hows and whys, and I think there are others better suited to address the question than I as magic and necromancy has never beeen my strongest area. Apologes for that, I think I know but I don't want to mislead anyone reading, but I think Mannimarco did achieve godhood and you are fighting an avatar in TES IV which is why the Hero needs the huge soul gem to even stand a chance.

  • May 29

    Paws said:

    Draco Mors said:

    No, I haven't seen anything like that on here, but I have elsewhere. I won't hold back on my Lorkhan discussion because I found him to be the fascinating Aedra of them all and theory isn't fully fleshed out and takes in real life religions to help my theory on him, which something I know some people in the Lore community, not this one, to have a fit.

    I get that, but what the Lore of him archiving CHIM and all of that business? Or how he is one of three shards of the Ash King or whatever? I mean the Skyrim just gives the very basic Lore of Talos, and yet there is a whole lot more stuff to learn about. Bethesda also has a problem of retconning Lore also, because in Daggerfall Mannimarco ascends to Godhood, and yet it gets retcon in Oblivion, so which is right.? Did he become the Necromancer's Moon and became a God or nah? 

    If you get more and more sources though wouldn't end up making it more confusing or even a higher chance of items being retconned? I know it seems like I bringing up more questions than answers, but there are, to me atleast, a lot of what ifs.

    "Draco" is it? Nice :) Ok, good to know you have never seen any attcaking going on, that's good to hear. Lore fans, like any other, tend to be passionate, but I like knowing that same passion hasn't overflowed to cause a mess.

    Right, those are some big questions. I can dive into answering them, but I am accutely aware that in doing so I would be undermining our Lore Group Host's work, as addressing the subject really ought to be it's own post. So, what I'll do is link you to The Importance of Talos and urge you to scroll down to the section called The Enantiomorph, and CHIM and Talos the Tower of Man.

    A lot of TES lore and how it is presented is complicated because in the old days it relied a lot on fan-dev communication. The writers were a big part of the lore community and used to do lots interaction, from Ask Me Anything interviews to forum RP games in which anwers to questions were given. Things have changed a bit, but the sources remain.

    Also, TES has a habit of using these out of game activities and expanding upon them. I have two examples that are easy to explain. The first is Heimskr's speech:

    " Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you"

    This comes from an oog game source called The Many-Headed Talos written by MK. By adding it to the game, it is now endorsed. How one approaches the sources or argues canonicity becomes irrelevant, as a source is a source regardless of whether it appears in-game.

    The second example is the Painted Cow sacrificial offering to giants we see in TES V, which comes from 911th Cow, another oog book.

    We all try not to take it to heart that only MK can save Skyrim from the trash heap - but I can say that even without directly writing any books, I'd say there's more of his influence on Skyrim than Oblivion. Probably a lot more - if you look at the chapter from the PGE on Skyrim, (pretty sure that was one of his - I can't remember any more who wrote which one, it's Bilbo and Strider all over again), and that chapter is the foundation for the whole setting. And if you look really hard, you might even find a painted cow. (No comment on flying whales.) Kurt Kuhlmann

    You might find the short FAQ post interesting :)

    On the subject of Manny Marco, I think we have a post somewhere which really goes into the hows and whys, and I think there are others better suited to address the question than I as magic and necromancy has never beeen my strongest area. Apologes for that, I think I know but I don't want to mislead anyone reading, but I think Mannimarco did achieve godhood and you are fighting an avatar in TES IV which is why the Hero needs the huge soul gem to even stand a chance.

    Technically Mors Draco, but Draco will suit and thanks. Yeah, the attacking happens on TES Lore on Reddit and other places like that, but not here from what I have seen.

    I will check out that link later and maybe that will answer some more of my questions.

    See the whole fan-dev thing makes sense to me and seems better than what they are doing now because you have a direct source. So now OOG books can be considered cannon/lore, as long as someone at Bethesda writes in the game.? I say that by judging the examples and links you have provided.

    I have already bookmarked it for future references, so thanks for that.

    Did you purpose to do that for a pun, if so good job.? I have researched Mannimarco beyond everything, just for the fact he is basically the God of Necromancy something I have always liked from my days in D&D, so I won't hold the fact you don't understand those subjects aginst you because it took me a long time to understand. That is how I have seen Mannimarco archived his goal of becoming and God and got his plane known as the Necromancer's Moon, and the person you fight in Oblivion is his avatar, but there is debate about that because different people worked on it so it isn't legit, any lore in Daggerfall and such isn't cannon anymore due to retcons, etc. 

  • Member
    June 23

    I love how....obscure some of the lore iks. In our world, the beliefs of the masses, the mythologies, and even the existence of historical figures is ofted debated around, and in some cases, are left up to scholars

  • June 23

    Uppercuts only, no other swings. :P

    If I went into it without a joke it'd take a lot longer but eh, that's how it rolls. Officially speaking, I generally prefer the 'outside observer' side of things, or examining Lore in a historical sense (as in, if I were a History Student) and trying to be as unbiased as possible. I don't prefer Auri-El over Akatosh or over Alkosh or whomever, but what I try to do is just look at why the Mer believe in Auri-El and his supremacy and why the Imperials are Akatosh fanatics.

    But you know, I'm only human and have biases...that doesn't feel like a word and yet it does. Anyway I do prefer looking at Altmeri (with a focus on the older stuff, so mixing in that Aldmer, Ayelid, etc. stuff) or Imperial Lore over anyone else's. I guess the idea of the conquering races just appeals to me more and the Altmer and Imperials have both had a dominion over most of Tamriel at one point so I like the spread of their cultures and how they've influenced others. That's the same reason that I like Nordic stuff but can't stand Bretons (which really just feel like they've taken parts of Altmeri and Imperial lore and said 'yeah, this'll do').

    Anyway, the answer is all of the above but none of the above. And man I really should've answered this way earlier. Thanks I s'pose to Chris for commenting again so it got me thinking. 

     

  • June 23
    Seems I'm quite late for the party. Mannimarco, interesting subject. Yes, one theory is that you meet his avatar in Oblivion. The other? Well...Warp in the West. All possible outcomes happened at once. So Mannimarco ascended to godhood, became a lich and died at the same time. So yes, Mannimarco is a god but in Oblivion you meet Mannimarco that is just as real as the god version. So yeah, quite fun.