Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions


Kyne and Y'ffre

Tags: #Lore: Nords  #Lore: Bosmer 
  • Member
    October 17, 2016

    You are doom-driven. Kogaan Akatosh. The very bones of the earth are at your disposal. ~ Paarthurnax

    Hold, Alduin on the Wing! Sister Hawk, grant us your sacred breath to make this contract heard! Begone, World-Eater! By words with older bones than your own we break your perch on this age and send you out! You are banished! Alduin, we shout you out from all our endings unto the last! ~ Feldir the Old

     

    Comparing myths to determine the truth is normally an exercise in futility as the very word is defined as being stories requiring interpretation, yet that fact doesn't stop it from being a fun thing to do. In this piece of quick and dirty lore we're taking a look at the similarities between Kyne and Y'ffre and asking whether they are actually the same being viewed through very different cultural lenses. To start with we will revist Kyne briefly and have a quick look at the aspects she has before moving on to an equally brief look at Y'ffre to compare and contrast these two beings.

    In Nordic myth the wind and sky are the personifications of Kyne as men believe they were formed when the sky breathed life into them. Kyne is also called the Kiss at the End due to the Nord belief it is she who guides their honoured dead to Sovngarde. She is an ever-present deity to the Sons and Daughters of Kyne, both surrounding their daily lives as weather or invoked on the fields of battle. Even the beasts of the natural world which the people of Skyrim rely on to survive are thought to be her crations and as such she is very much a mother goddess figure to the Nords.

    Due to the absence of Akatosh in the ancient pantheon it may not be surprising that she has such a strong connection to time, personifying alpha and omega in addition to the present for the Nords. We see some of those time aspects in Kyne's "pale shadow" Kynareth, who it is believed is the first to agree to Lorkhan's plan to invent the mortal plane and provided the space for its creation in the void. Kyne is also credited with teaching the Nords to use the Thu'um either directly or indirectly through her myterious daughters and/or the dragon Paarthurnax. The Storm Voice is a reality-bending power in it's own right, the Tongues wielding it are capable of incredible feats such as being able to alter time's flow or change the very weather with their Voice.

    We can see Kyne is very much a goddess of "firsts."

    He sees and hears nothing, for Y'ffre is now the Earth-Bones, the frame upon which Nature is laid and woven. His sight-perception and song-echo instead are loomed through his bones and woven into tapestries of song for we mortals to study... The sky mirrors the sea, and the sea also reflects its mirror. Day, night, and the places between are the realm of the sky, as Y'ffre interpreted the time-law Anui-el established within Nirn."
    "Thus, the sky bridges time and nature, and measures both. ~ Girnalin

    In Bosmeri myth Y'ffre is the "Storyteller" and "Spirit of the Now. " She transformed herself into the first of the Ehlnofey, or 'Earth Bones when everything was chaos after the mortal plane was created to establish the laws of nature. Another deity of firsts as a progenitor god and thus strongly asssociated with the beginning, the connections shared between Y'ffre and Kyne go deeper than than the themes of time and nature. The Spinners of Valenwood can alter reality with their voices and the tales they spin, changing events and the flow of time should the need arise.

    So far, so Kyne. The only problem lies in that term "Earthbone." The use of this word comes straight out of the Aldmeri creation myth and so is intricically wrapped up in the merish worldview. As is often the case we accept it as an established fact, but an analysis of these mythic stories raises the quetion of their validity:

    Finally, the magical beings of Mythic Aurbis told the ultimate story -- that of their own death. For some this was an artistic transfiguration into the concrete, non-magical substance of the world. For others, this was a war in which all were slain, their bodies becoming the substance of the world. For yet others, this was a romantic marriage and parenthood, with the parent spirits naturally having to die and give way to the succeeding mortal races. ~ The Monomyth. The Myth of Aurbis

    If Kyne's story is one of breathing life into the Nords and creating rain and thunder in her grief-fury over the death of Shor, then could it not be said that Y'ffre's story is of her sacrificing herself to bring order to the chaos? Apart from the variations on a theme, what is the difference between an Eartbone and a Gift-Limb?

    Anyway, that's my contribution to Glade Goblin week ;)

  • October 17, 2016

    Are we sex-changing Y'ffre now too? Or are we sex-changing Kyne? Ah hah... 

    What I find interesting is the more female-involved view of Men creation as apposed to the decidedly more male view of Elven, specifically Altmeri creation. Men tend to place a much larger emphasis on the female role, the role of wife, mother, widow, though they have their warriors too, while the elves, unless we decide to sex-change all their bloody gods, have a more male perspective. Knights, Kings, warlocks, scribes, whatnot. If you look at traditional sources *cough* not ESO that sex-changes established gods to appeal to a wider gaming audience*cough* the Altmeri pantheon typically do not have female gods unless they are adopting a more Alessian/Imperial pantheon. I still think that whole Syrabane thing is nonsense and throws a huge wrench in what could have been a profoundly awesome and cool Elf vs Man dynamic. The original Altmeri pantheon is decidedly a man show, lol, man as in male, not mortal man. They only have Mara,  and really I think even she's a bit sketchy to include there as a true goddess of the Altmeri pantheon. I'd be WAY more inclinded to include Meridia in the Altmeri pantheon and ditch Mara.  She's way more inline with what the other Altmeri/Aldmer/Ayleid gods tend to be, even though she's sort of a fallen magna ge thingy who cohorted with daedra.  It's like the Elves in question call these men barbarians, but it's the men who are in touch with their feminine side. It's men who give love and respect to the mother figure, to hearth and home. But it's all about perception.

    Now, I could see Kyne appearing male to the southern and Western Elves as you said and presenting a different viewpoint. That she is Y'ffre, but male. And it goes with the idea of aedra appearing as different entities to different people. 

    But that Syrabane is female in ESO is IMO, solely because the game developers felt they needed more female representation among the Aldmeri Dominion pantheon. Same reason why Peter Jackson put Tauriel in the Hobbit and expanded the roles Arwen in LOTR. The gaming dynamic has changed since the lore was first established and developers are realizing that certain members may not feel they are represented. And this is a woman writing this. In my eyes, Syrabane will always be male. He is male everywhere else in the lore. Look I get that they can sex change, I really do, and I even support it, but I'm just not buying it with Syrabane. I buy it WAY more with Kyne actually. And if Altmer have such a male view on creation, why on earth would one of their gods flip female. Maybe appear female to Men, who seem to welcome that dynamic, but to Elves? That doesn't make sense to me. Hopefully in the course of ES lore, more Syranbane as a female lore books will creep up, supporting his case as a sex-changer,  and I'll be convinced, because I want to believe and I like this application to tie in Kyne and Y'ffre, but until that happens... 

    Enough of my random ranting. There's also a source that I think says Kyne and Y'ffre were brother and sister and that she took up his mantle when he gave up his life to be the earth bones. That's an interesting story too. 

    PS: Remind me to screenshot the page on Syrabane before they change it to make him female like they changed the Nordic pantheon. They are sneaky and I know they do this. 

    PPS: I took the screenshot. *does a happy dance*

    PPPS: Notice I do not include the Dunmer. Makes me wonder a bit why Veloth split and the resulting pantheon created from it. What do we have in the Velothi/Chimer/Dunmeri pantheon? The female. 

  • Member
    October 17, 2016

    Lissette Long-Chapper said:

    Are we sex-changing Y'ffre now too? Or are we sex-changing Kyne? Ah hah... 

    What I find interesting is the more female-involved view of Men creation as apposed to the decidedly more male view of Elven, specifically Altmeri creation. Men tend to place a much larger emphasis on the female role, the role of wife, mother, widow, though they have their warriors too, while the elves, unless we decide to sex-change all their bloody gods, have a more male perspective. Knights, Kings, warlocks, scribes, whatnot. If you look at traditional sources *cough* not ESO that sex-changes established gods to appeal to a wider gaming audience*cough* the Altmeri pantheon typically do not have female gods unless they are adopting a more Alessian/Imperial pantheon. I still think that whole Syrabane thing is nonsense and throws a huge wrench in what could have been a profoundly awesome and cool Elf vs Man dynamic. The original Altmeri pantheon is decidedly a man show, lol, man as in male, not mortal man. They only have Mara,  and really I think even she's a bit sketchy to include there as a true goddess of the Altmeri pantheon. I'd be WAY more inclinded to include Meridia in the Altmeri pantheon and ditch Mara.  She's way more inline with what the other Altmeri/Aldmer/Ayleid gods tend to be, even though she's sort of a fallen magna ge thingy who cohorted with daedra.  It's like the Elves in question call these men barbarians, but it's the men who are in touch with their feminine side. It's men who give love and respect to the mother figure, to hearth and home. But it's all about perception.

    Now, I could see Kyne appearing male to the southern and Western Elves as you said and presenting a different viewpoint. That she is Y'ffre, but male. And it goes with the idea of aedra appearing as different entities to different people. 

    But that Syrabane is female in ESO is IMO, solely because the game developers felt they needed more female representation among the Aldmeri Dominion pantheon. Same reason why Peter Jackson put Tauriel in the Hobbit and expanded the roles Arwen in LOTR. The gaming dynamic has changed since the lore was first established and developers are realizing that certain members may not feel they are represented. And this is a woman writing this. In my eyes, Syrabane will always be male. He is male everywhere else in the lore. Look I get that they can sex change, I really do, and I even support it, but I'm just not buying it with Syrabane. I buy it WAY more with Kyne actually. And if Altmer have such a male view on creation, why on earth would one of their gods flip female. Maybe appear female to Men, who seem to welcome that dynamic, but to Elves? That doesn't make sense to me. Hopefully in the course of ES lore, more Syranbane as a female lore books will creep up, supporting his case as a sex-changer,  and I'll be convinced, because I want to believe and I like this application to tie in Kyne and Y'ffre, but until that happens... 

    Enough of my random ranting. There's also a source that I think says Kyne and Y'ffre were brother and sister and that she took up his mantle when he gave up his life to be the earth bones. That's an interesting story too. 

    PS: Remind me to screenshot the page on Syrabane before they change it to make him female like they changed the Nordic pantheon. They are sneaky and I know they do this. 

    PPS: I took the screenshot. *does a happy dance*

    PPPS: Notice I do not include the Dunmer. Makes me wonder a bit why Veloth split and the resulting pantheon created from it. What do we have in the Velothi/Chimer/Dunmeri pantheon? The female. 

    In essence, the Altmeri pantheon is one big old sausage fest eh? God, now I wanna write ES porn! i've already written clopfics for MLP. I have an odd desire to do so for Ulfric and Rikka

  • Member
    October 17, 2016

    Lissette Long-Chapper said:

    Are we sex-changing Y'ffre now too? Or are we sex-changing Kyne? Ah hah... 

    What I find interesting is the more female-involved view of Men creation as apposed to the decidedly more male view of Elven, specifically Altmeri creation. Men tend to place a much larger emphasis on the female role, the role of wife, mother, widow, though they have their warriors too, while the elves, unless we decide to sex-change all their bloody gods, have a more male perspective. Knights, Kings, warlocks, scribes, whatnot. If you look at traditional sources *cough* not ESO that sex-changes established gods to appeal to a wider gaming audience*cough* the Altmeri pantheon typically do not have female gods unless they are adopting a more Alessian/Imperial pantheon. I still think that whole Syrabane thing is nonsense and throws a huge wrench in what could have been a profoundly awesome and cool Elf vs Man dynamic. The original Altmeri pantheon is decidedly a man show, lol, man as in male, not mortal man. They only have Mara,  and really I think even she's a bit sketchy to include there as a true goddess of the Altmeri pantheon. I'd be WAY more inclinded to include Meridia in the Altmeri pantheon and ditch Mara.  She's way more inline with what the other Altmeri/Aldmer/Ayleid gods tend to be, even though she's sort of a fallen magna ge thingy who cohorted with daedra.  It's like the Elves in question call these men barbarians, but it's the men who are in touch with their feminine side. It's men who give love and respect to the mother figure, to hearth and home. But it's all about perception.

    Now, I could see Kyne appearing male to the southern and Western Elves as you said and presenting a different viewpoint. That she is Y'ffre, but male. And it goes with the idea of aedra appearing as different entities to different people.

    I took that from The Ooze. As soon as I saw Y'ffre has been referred to in the feminine I knew I finally liked her :) What can I say? I like bushes. And flowers and trees, of course ;)

    I love your thoughts here on an aspect of Kyne being masculine in the south, that works well. Also, great insight into the male perspective. The divine feminine has always been important, although looking at some religions in real life it is hard to see that equality.

    Lissette Long-Chapper said:

    But that Syrabane is female in ESO is IMO, solely because the game developers felt they needed more female representation among the Aldmeri Dominion pantheon. Same reason why Peter Jackson put Tauriel in the Hobbit and expanded the roles Arwen in LOTR. The gaming dynamic has changed since the lore was first established and developers are realizing that certain members may not feel they are represented. And this is a woman writing this. In my eyes, Syrabane will always be male. He is male everywhere else in the lore. Look I get that they can sex change, I really do, and I even support it, but I'm just not buying it with Syrabane. I buy it WAY more with Kyne actually. And if Altmer have such a male view on creation, why on earth would one of their gods flip female. Maybe appear female to Men, who seem to welcome that dynamic, but to Elves? That doesn't make sense to me. Hopefully in the course of ES lore, more Syranbane as a female lore books will creep up, supporting his case as a sex-changer,  and I'll be convinced, because I want to believe and I like this application to tie in Kyne and Y'ffre, but until that happens...

    Haha, gender bending Syrie. That was a shocker, wasn't it? And I don't know why but it is an interesting question. Is it possible that with the rise of Ayrenn that Altmeri society among the younger generation took to the feminine more readilly?

    Lissette Long-Chapper said:

    Enough of my random ranting. There's also a source that I think says Kyne and Y'ffre were brother and sister and that she took up his mantle when he gave up his life to be the earth bones. That's an interesting story too. 

    PS: Remind me to screenshot the page on Syrabane before they change it to make him female like they changed the Nordic pantheon. They are sneaky and I know they do this. 

    PPS: I took the screenshot. *does a happy dance*

    PPPS: Notice I do not include the Dunmer. Makes me wonder a bit why Veloth split and the resulting pantheon created from it. What do we have in the Velothi/Chimer/Dunmeri pantheon? The female. 

    See if you can dig up that source! :) Would love to read it. This was just a quickie but now Y'ffre's a lady i would like a longer sesh :P

    And Dunmer... Yeah. Almalexia has pretty much taken on all the other goddess' roles plus a bit of Auriel's. She is alll things to all people in many ways. Shame she went nuts. The feminine is also strong amongs the saints, too. I think your point is succinct: The Chimer were sick of sausage and wanted sea food for a change. Those clams, eh?

  • October 18, 2016

    I always liked the idea that Kynareth was an amalgamation of Kyne and Y'ffre. 

  • October 18, 2016

    When I started writing my Character/Faction Build for the Druids of Galen I played around with this idea of the aedric/daedric dieties actually being different aspects of the same being.  It's something that I now adhere too in my own head cannon of the TES universe, that the Skaal have been right all along and there are not 9 divines there is just a singular entity and the divines are just aspects of that singular entity.  However, as i warn in my faction build, this is a self-fulfilling prophesy, once you start looking for these links and similarities between the different entities you will start seeing them everywhere, even where they might not actually exist.

    I came up with the proto-being Hirkinaref (Hircine, Kyne, Kynareth, Namira, Y'ffre) which combines all of of the names for these dieties, which already share similarities.  There are alot of connections between these four entities, and alot of overlap in the spheres traditionally ascribed to each.  It is not hard to image that they may all stem from some singular proto-being worshipped by primitive tamrielans in ages long forgotten.

    Anyway great write up Phil.

  • Member
    October 21, 2016

    Vargr White-Tree said:

    When I started writing my Character/Faction Build for the Druids of Galen I played around with this idea of the aedric/daedric dieties actually being different aspects of the same being.  It's something that I now adhere too in my own head cannon of the TES universe, that the Skaal have been right all along and there are not 9 divines there is just a singular entity and the divines are just aspects of that singular entity.  However, as i warn in my faction build, this is a self-fulfilling prophesy, once you start looking for these links and similarities between the different entities you will start seeing them everywhere, even where they might not actually exist.

    Sorry Vargs I did not see this. Damn my Vancian approach to creativity. I agree with you, we have a similar outlook here. Put all the demons and gods into one being and you could well have an entity with a complete pysche. Aka's my contender to be that being seeing as his mind fractured, after which the other spirits formed. It is as you say, though, there is possibility everywhere and connections to be made where they may not be appropriate. That said, if a connection can be made then it definitely should be. There is no reason why the Divines, The All-Maker and our shared aspects perspective could not be true. Or none of them. What is truth when dealing with myth, right?

    Vargr White-Tree said:

    I came up with the proto-being Hirkinaref (Hircine, Kyne, Kynareth, Namira, Y'ffre) which combines all of of the names for these dieties, which already share similarities.  There are alot of connections between these four entities, and alot of overlap in the spheres traditionally ascribed to each.  It is not hard to image that they may all stem from some singular proto-being worshipped by primitive tamrielans in ages long forgotten.

    I very much like the idea that each god ha two demons to make a trinity of shared aspects. If we join Kyne and Kynareth then I reckon we're aligned. Damn, I had a post about this somewhere. Hirkinareef. Love it!

    Vargr White-Tree said:

    Anyway great write up Phil.

    Are you shitting me? This is biased as hell :D

  • December 20, 2016

    I have a slight suspicion that the reason for the lack of female presence in the Aldmeri pantheon is a completely different perception of gods by the Altmeri people. Just as Lissette said, the men see Kyne as a female archetype (even several) such as a mother, a wife, a widow. While the Altmeri gods appear less like social archetypes and more like figures conveying philosophic ideas and examples which aren't tied to gender. Their essense won't change no matter if they are male or female.

  • Member
    December 20, 2016

    I like that :) I came across another ESO book, The Apprentice's God:

    Penitent, revel in the presence of the sacred ring: Syrabane. The Warlock Lord of the Divines, the ancient source of wizardly wisdom. He who fought against the depredations of the Sload and the plague of the Before Times.

    To complete your venerations here, intone: "By Apprentice be blessed and by Apprentice be praised. Honor to the Warlock-God and the Sacred Ring."

    So in ESO she is both male and female and it's up to you which source you prefer. Good old TES :D Plays nicely into your outlook though, Thorien.

    Gotta be said, Syrabane as a lady... I would revel in the presence of her sacred ring.

  • December 20, 2016

    Yes, Syrabane proves my point perfectly)) Can be either male or female, that changes nothing for the Altmer for only the path s/he set for the successors to follow is what matters. It could be even that Syrabane's gender is a subject of debate among the Altmer since the facts were lost in history))