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  • Member
    May 16

    Medieval said:

    Thanks Teineeva, I ask this becuase I want to know how limitated are Daedra the intelligent ones about their decisions, If they really take their own decisions or how much they are limitated by their instincts

    Well I would say that it really depends on the Daedra. The Dremora for example are described as fiercely loyal so tend to follow the orders of their master (even if they don't have any respect for most humans) but are largely independant otherwise. A good example of this would be the albeit fictional work of "A tragedy in black" where Dremora are shown as intelligent tricksters, and while yes this could be their instinct after all a lot of animals can lay traps but if it is where do you draw the line between rational thought and animalistic instinct?

    Anyway, Medieval I think this would make for a great discussion, don't hesitate to post one in the group. I'm sure some of the other lore buffs around would love to weight in.

  • Member
    May 18

    I have a question about Stendarr and his relationship with the Altmer. Who is he exactly to the Altmer? I know he is considered to be the apologist of Man, which can be seen as a bad thing, but in Rituals of the Harmonious Masters, it seems like Stendarr is more of a caring figure and defender of all races. 

  • May 18

    Altmer and Stendarr. You said it, Altmer see him as an apologist of Man and that is pretty much all we are given about Altmer and Stendarr. But then comes ESO with Harmonious Masters, who emphasize the Mercy part of Stendarr, focusing on healing and taking care of the poor and those in need. Which is basicaly what Cyrodiilic Stendarr is. 

    Take this with a grain of salt, but my theory is that since ESO is in Second Era, long after Reman conquered whole Tamriel. And with that actually came the Cyrodiilic view on gods, definitely Stendarr. So Harmonious Masters are more or less worshipping Stendarr from Cyrodiilic point of view if you get my meaning. Stendarr in that pantheon is basicaly this nice daddy that cares about everyone and smacks every evil thing with his big stick. Kinda. 

    Now, how Altmer see their Stendarr? It´s tough, because their whole pantheon is full of these hero gods, like Syrabane and others. To most Mer Stendarr could be kind of weathered down version of Trinimac, he could be a god of knight protectors, templars, chasing Abominations in the wilds. But Trinimac - even though he´s gone - is still sort of preferable option over Stendarr, and I haven´t even started about Auriel, who is just the biggest hero-god-king. 

    So yeah, Stendarr...he´s not really popular among Altmer. 

  • Member
    May 18

    Teineeva said:

    Medieval said:

    Thanks Teineeva, I ask this becuase I want to know how limitated are Daedra the intelligent ones about their decisions, If they really take their own decisions or how much they are limitated by their instincts

    Well I would say that it really depends on the Daedra. The Dremora for example are described as fiercely loyal so tend to follow the orders of their master (even if they don't have any respect for most humans) but are largely independant otherwise. A good example of this would be the albeit fictional work of "A tragedy in black" where Dremora are shown as intelligent tricksters, and while yes this could be their instinct after all a lot of animals can lay traps but if it is where do you draw the line between rational thought and animalistic instinct?

    Anyway, Medieval I think this would make for a great discussion, don't hesitate to post one in the group. I'm sure some of the other lore buffs around would love to weight in.

     

    Thanks again Teineeva, I already posted it http://tamrielvault.com/forums/topic/8083/how-limited-are-daedra-on-his-thinking-and-decision-choices , but I'm going to post it again, delete that post and create another one with a correct tittle and with more descriptions and stuff. Also I have created a more correct post on reddit/r/teslore, I recently created an acc. there Medieval 3D, reddit/r/teslore is the page what started and contribute on creating UESP, here is the post I made https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/6bk1ef/how_limited_are_intelligent_daedra_on_their/ , I already have some responses I invite anyone to read or debate there :). I like reddit becuase people go just there for ask or get responses, it have a code of behavior, so the comments one gets are lore friendly, with references and details and the threads one made get more responses on time

    I'm going to create a Lore post or an Elder Scrolls discussion post, when I collected and researched a good amount of content related to my question, so the n Ican create a good post with references and lorefriendly about it and some conclusions and points of view, the question what I have posted on reddit/r/teslore is: How limited are intelligent Daedra on their thinking, behave and decision choices?, If they have

     

  • Member
    May 18

    I have been reading some Lore stuff posted by Michael Kirkbride, who I know some hate and some worship, but one of the things I read was that there were to be 4 "houses" of the gods which represented the different stages of the cycle of the Aurbis, which were the Dead Gods, the Hearth Gods, the Testing Gods, and the Twilight Gods. Along with saying the end of a cycle was supposed to be preceded by the Dragonborn God, a god that did not exist in the previous cycle but whose presence means that the current one is almost over. So I have two questions.

    1) Who are/were the Dead Gods, the Hearth Gods, the Testing Gods, and the Twilight Gods?

    2) Does that mean the LDB is actually a God themselves and they are meant to end to current cycle/kalpa, and not Alduin?

  • May 19

    The Mad One said:

    I have been reading some Lore stuff posted by Michael Kirkbride, who I know some hate and some worship, but one of the things I read was that there were to be 4 "houses" of the gods which represented the different stages of the cycle of the Aurbis, which were the Dead Gods, the Hearth Gods, the Testing Gods, and the Twilight Gods. Along with saying the end of a cycle was supposed to be preceded by the Dragonborn God, a god that did not exist in the previous cycle but whose presence means that the current one is almost over. So I have two questions.

    1) Who are/were the Dead Gods, the Hearth Gods, the Testing Gods, and the Twilight Gods?

    Dead Gods:

    • The Fox, Shor
    • The Bear, Tsun

    Hearth Gods: 

    • The Hawk, Kyne
    • The Wolf, Mara
    • The Moth, Dibella

    Testing Gods: 

    • The Snake, Orkey
    • The Woodland Man, Herma Mora

    Twilight Gods: 

    • The Dragon, Alduin
    • The Dragonborn God, Talos

    The Mad One said:

    2) Does that mean the LDB is actually a God themselves and they are meant to end to current cycle/kalpa, and not Alduin?

    The Dragonborn God, Talos

    Talos’ totem is the newest, but is everywhere – he is the Dragonborn Conquering Son, the first new god of this cycle, whose power is consequently unknown, so the Nords bless nearly everything with his totem, since he might very well be the god of it now, too. Yes, as first of the Twilight Gods, this practice might seem contradictory, but that’s only because, of all the gods, he will be the one that survives in whole into the next cycle.

    So no, Last Dragonborn is not a god, but Talos is and has been for over 500 years, which is why he has a place in Nordic Pantheon. And this is basicaly what is is: Nordic Pantheon or if you want Totemic Religion 

     

     

  • Member
    May 19

    Medieval said:

    Teineeva said:

    Medieval said:

    Thanks Teineeva, I ask this becuase I want to know how limitated are Daedra the intelligent ones about their decisions, If they really take their own decisions or how much they are limitated by their instincts

    Well I would say that it really depends on the Daedra. The Dremora for example are described as fiercely loyal so tend to follow the orders of their master (even if they don't have any respect for most humans) but are largely independant otherwise. A good example of this would be the albeit fictional work of "A tragedy in black" where Dremora are shown as intelligent tricksters, and while yes this could be their instinct after all a lot of animals can lay traps but if it is where do you draw the line between rational thought and animalistic instinct?

    Anyway, Medieval I think this would make for a great discussion, don't hesitate to post one in the group. I'm sure some of the other lore buffs around would love to weight in.

     

    Thanks again Teineeva, I already posted it http://tamrielvault.com/forums/topic/8083/how-limited-are-daedra-on-his-thinking-and-decision-choices , but I'm going to post it again, delete that post and create another one with a correct tittle and with more descriptions and stuff. Also I have created a more correct post on reddit/r/teslore, I recently created an acc. there Medieval 3D, reddit/r/teslore is the page what started and contribute on creating UESP, here is the post I made https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/6bk1ef/how_limited_are_intelligent_daedra_on_their/ , I already have some responses I invite anyone to read or debate there :). I like reddit becuase people go just there for ask or get responses, it have a code of behavior, so the comments one gets are lore friendly, with references and details and the threads one made get more responses on time

    I'm going to create a Lore post or an Elder Scrolls discussion post, when I collected and researched a good amount of content related to my question, so the n Ican create a good post with references and lorefriendly about it and some conclusions and points of view, the question what I have posted on reddit/r/teslore is: How limited are intelligent Daedra on their thinking, behave and decision choices?, If they have

     

    Horror! C'mon Meds, post it here too. We want to attract and have memebrs interact on this site, not R/TESlore. You can help that by posting here too! Things get lost on reddit, and you can't add your own art or images to break up the text on reddit ;)

  • Member
    May 19

    Hey do not worry Phil, as I said: I'm going to create a Lore post or an Elder Scrolls discussion post, when I collected and researched a good amount of content related to my question, so then I can create a good post with references and lorefriendly about it and some conclusions and points of view. TamrielVault have a special place on my hearth.

  • Member
    May 26

    I don't know if this is the right place to ask this, but I was looking up stuff about the Order of the Hour and read both the Daggerfall and ESO articles about them. My question is if this order is sworn to protect the Akatosh Chantry or be their military arm, then why do they teach you the ability to summon Deadra and Deadra Lords?

  • Member
    May 27

    David said:

    I don't know if this is the right place to ask this, but I was looking up stuff about the Order of the Hour and read both the Daggerfall and ESO articles about them. My question is if this order is sworn to protect the Akatosh Chantry or be their military arm, then why do they teach you the ability to summon Deadra and Deadra Lords?

    Good question, Davey. Not an easy thing to answer without digging really deep into Imperial culture. The idea that Daedra Worship is frowned upon in the Empire is quite ingrained, but in reality it hasn't actually been a forbidden practice since the Reman dynasty of the Second Era, and before that the Alessian Empire in the First.

    During the Third Era, freedom of religion was actually encouraged, although secretive wilderness shrines were still something of a taboo to Imperial pearl-clutchers. We can look at the PGE 1Ed and see that the opening page of this Imperial Propaganda actually has invocations to the Principalities. In addition, quotes such as this from Imperial Census on Daedra Lords ~ Since Akatosh is the prime temporal spirit whose appearance led to the formation of the world, perhaps Hermaeus Mora speaks the truth. Nevertheless, it is the will of His Majesty Uriel VII that only on the official holiday of 5th First Seed should any propitiation to this Daedric Prince be delivered. “All else is mutation" ~ demonstrate that the holidays designed to summon these beings were officially sanctioned.

    To add a further depth, it could be that these summoning holidays were also designed for the protection of Imperial citizens. Indeed, Daedra of all varieties have ever been sought for the knowledge they can impart. The Mages Guild, sanctioned by the Empire, is "dedicated to the collection, preservation, and distribution of magical knowledge with an emphasis on ensuring that all citizens of Tamriel benefit from this knowledge."

    If we take a look at the Invocation of Azura, we can see that in the case of Azura, she herself has prescribed dates of contact:

    We may summon her on other dates also, and she quite often responds. The only days we are forbidden to invoke her are those prescribed to one of the other fifteen Princes: the 1st and the 13th of Morning Star, the 2nd and the 16th of Suns Dawn, the 5th of First Seed, the 9th of Rains Hand, the 9th of Second Seed, the 5th of Mid Year, the 10th of Suns Height, the 3rd of Hearth Fire, the 8th and the 13th of Frost Fall, the 2nd and 20th of Suns Dusk, and the 20th of Evening Star. I know who is summoned on the 3rd of Hearth Fire, the 2nd of Suns Dusk, and the 20th of Evening Star, but I am not certain of the others. It is enough that Azura has forbidden those dates.

    By making these safe days known, perhaps the Empire was looking out for its people.

    In terms of the Order of the Hour in TES II: Daggerfall, the safe summoning of Princes was a means to have the player access to legendary artifacts. Who better to trust this summoning to than the clergy of the Time Dragon? See, a person may be a devout of Akatosh, but because he is the chief deity of the Nine Divines, the priesthood and knighthood were thus also dedicated to the ideals of all the Divines, including the dedication to knowledge as exemplified by Arkay's and Julianos' temples.

    If we look at the summoning of Daedra in that context, from the mindset of a devout of Akatosh, we can maybe see why the practice was not only encouraged but also absolutely necessary.

    We are the military arm of the Akatosh Chantry, the Order of the Hour, charged with the protection of the Chantry. Our knights are devoted to the Great Dragon, and dedicated to the promise of stability and permanence He represents. Our duties are varied indeed, and our honors bountiful. An initiate in our Order have the same rights and honors of an initiate in the Chantry.

    I don't know about you, David, but for me the idea of a Knight of Akatosh calling forth a thundernach in defence of his temple and flock is a very compelling thought indeed!

     

     


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