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Stormcloak? Imperial? Thalmor? Neutral? Why?

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    January 24, 2017 4:02 PM EST

    Hello, Vaulters. If you remember, I started a discussion a few months back discussing my take on the Civil War (and wrecking Imperials at the classic Civil War argument because they're scrubs :p). While a good Civil War debate is always entertaining, I thought I would change it up by just simply asking why you're on your side.

    I'm a Stormcloak because I believe that the Empire ended with Uriel Septim. The Empire did not have to sign the White-Gold Concordant in order to preserve man, it had to continue fighting to do it. However, they didn't, despite their virtual tie with the Elves. Instead, they allowed for the Aldmeri Dominion to offer them a peace treaty that was virtually the same damned thing as the ultimatum presented to the Empire, which is what initially started the war. 

    Just to prove my point:

    Ultimatum:"Staggering" tributes

                      Outlaw of Talos worship

                      Ceding large portions of Hammerfell to the Dominion

                      Disbandment of the Blades 

    White-Gold Concordant: Outlaw of Talos worship

                                       Disbandment of Blades

                                       A large portion of southern Hammerfell given to the Aldmeri Dominion

     

    As you can see, the Empire, to put bluntly, is fucking stupid. Instead of taking advantage of being basically in a draw with the Thalmor, and renegotiating the treaty's terms, they decide to go ahead and agree to the very thing they went to war over. There is a fine line between diplomacy and pushover, and the "Empire" crossed it. Not only that, but it's obvious as hell by just reviewing the Concordant's terms that the conditions were created to create strife amongst the people of the Empire and thus weaken it. A few decades later, rebellion in Skyrim dawns, and a real leader takes charge. Ulfric began with the controversial "assassination" of High King Toryyg. However, the issue is that Toryyg was not assassinated, but killed in fair combat. While in real life this is obviously immoral and totally unjustifiable, this is Skyrim, land of the Nords. The challenge of combat is nothing new to Nordic culture, but it is to Imperial milk drinkers, apparently. Ulfric's use of Unrelenting Force against Toryyg was also fair, as he spent almost ten years under the apprenticeship of the Graybeards in order to master a single shout, while Toryyg was busy playing king. 

    I will not go any further into why I'm a Stormcloak, as it would then become a rerun of my old Stormcloaks vs Imperials thread. Anyways, I'd ask that you not argue, as that can be taken over to the official debate thread

     


    This post was edited by Rogue at January 24, 2017 4:04 PM EST
    • 57 posts
    January 24, 2017 7:49 PM EST

    I'm personally of the belief that the Empire is the most morally correct of the three. While far from perfect, and mired in political corruption, the empire at least presents a standing belief in comparitive equality between and amongst races. Growing up in the US South, I've seen racism up close. It hasn't magically disappeared since a black poresident was elected, and in fact amongst the real die-hards it's only gotten worse as they dig in their heels and begin to feel persecuted. Ulfric's policies concerning non-Nords set my teeth on edge, regardless of how otherwise honorable it can be argued he is. That's just a hot button issue for me. I'll always side with the people who stop the racists in games like this.

     

    Sorry for breaking the thread on the second post. >.>

    • 400 posts
    January 24, 2017 11:11 PM EST
    Lol. The races aren't equal; that's what makes them unique and fun to play. I'm sorry, but saying you'll always side with people who stop racists is crazy. Even if those people are rapists or necromantic soul snatching wizards, saying "I hate knife ears" makes the racists the bad guys?

    I consider myself neutral, really. If anyone is morally wrong, it's the Dominion, but Ulfric ruined chances to work with the Empire, which means the Dominion/Empire alliance will win, so who is the real bad guy? There is none, except ambition. Too grey to pick a side.
    • 145 posts
    January 24, 2017 11:49 PM EST

    I like joining the Empire with my main argonian because in my headcanon he's a blade who occasionally runs stealth missions for the Emperor. He keeps his loyalty in Skyrim because he knows that incident at Helgen was an accident (if it happened). Hell, he's probably the only assassin character in... ever, that destroys the DB just to avoid killing an old friend.

    • 210 posts
    January 25, 2017 12:53 AM EST
    I tend to stay neutral in picking a side since the world of TES is very grey if you look at its history. All the races have their good and bad sides. The Empire's built by the blood of the Elves and Dunmer practice slavery and so on.
    But if I am going to go against one side, that side would be the Thalmor. Note that I said Thalmor and NOT the Aldmeri Dominion since I'm pretty sure AD is just a facade the Thalmor are using so they could secretly execute their plan of returning to the Dawn Era.
    • 2 posts
    January 25, 2017 1:34 AM EST

    My character hates racism, but his hatred burns hotter for the Thalmor. After murdering his family (down to just him, his mother, and sister) he made it his personal mission to eliminate every single one of them (since before Helgen). He struggled with the decision for a long time because he felt the Stormcloaks were threatening in their own way... but he ultimately decided to side with them, not because their beliefs are aligned, but he sees the Thalmor as a greater threat that should be eliminated first. Beyond that, I haven't decided if it will be him or one of his parents that threatens to take necessary action if Ulfric and his 'Stormthugs' push their racist agendas- most likely his mom, since between the three of them she's slightly less diplomatic XD


    This post was edited by Grimweaver at January 25, 2017 1:34 AM EST
    • 473 posts
    January 25, 2017 5:36 AM EST
    Choosing a side for the Civil Warbhqs always felt quite... arbitrary for me. I feel like, regardless of who wins the war, the Empire will inevitably take over the province.

    The Stormcloaks appear to me as a faction that exists only to fight, when peace comes and they all go back to their fields and homes, their fire and passion will die. So if (and in my opinion, when) people realise their standard of living and comfort would be better under the Empire, it won't be long until the red dragon of the empire will return.

    So for this reason, I choose the Imperials, as speeding along the inevitable seems like the natural point of progression for me.
  • January 25, 2017 5:56 AM EST
    I go with Orcs, which means that Empire is the only reasonable choice.
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    January 25, 2017 6:25 AM EST

    I normally go with the Empire, Noodles pointed out quite correctly that Ulfric is a dormant Thalmor agent devoted to nothing more than the dominions victory, see Ulfrics dossier in the Thalmor Embassy, also I am a member of the British Empire and proud of it, role play wise its great for me as I have so many different countries to fight for while still being loyal to my own.

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    January 25, 2017 10:31 AM EST

    Mercurias said:

    I'm personally of the belief that the Empire is the most morally correct of the three. While far from perfect, and mired in political corruption, the empire at least presents a standing belief in comparitive equality between and amongst races. Growing up in the US South, I've seen racism up close. It hasn't magically disappeared since a black poresident was elected, and in fact amongst the real die-hards it's only gotten worse as they dig in their heels and begin to feel persecuted. Ulfric's policies concerning non-Nords set my teeth on edge, regardless of how otherwise honorable it can be argued he is. That's just a hot button issue for me. I'll always side with the people who stop the racists in games like this.

     

    Sorry for breaking the thread on the second post. >.>

    I live in the Southern U.S and have been all over the country, and can say personally that I have noticed racism everywhere. It is not exclusive to the south like you have suggested, so please reframe from generalizing a large population of actual good people. Anyways, might I ask for another reason you're an Imperial? Apart from the 'Cloak's "racism"?

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    January 25, 2017 10:32 AM EST

    Ebonslayer said:

    I like joining the Empire with my main argonian because in my headcanon he's a blade who occasionally runs stealth missions for the Emperor. He keeps his loyalty in Skyrim because he knows that incident at Helgen was an accident (if it happened). Hell, he's probably the only assassin character in... ever, that destroys the DB just to avoid killing an old friend.

    Love the roleplay aspect, Ebonslayer. I've done a similar thing before and it's fun as hell!

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    January 25, 2017 10:34 AM EST

    KaiserSoSage said: I tend to stay neutral in picking a side since the world of TES is very grey if you look at its history. All the races have their good and bad sides. The Empire's built by the blood of the Elves and Dunmer practice slavery and so on. But if I am going to go against one side, that side would be the Thalmor. Note that I said Thalmor and NOT the Aldmeri Dominion since I'm pretty sure AD is just a facade the Thalmor are using so they could secretly execute their plan of returning to the Dawn Era.

    You bring up a good point. If you've played ESO, you can probably recall when the Thalmor was trying to gain control over the Dominion at the time. Seems they finally succeeded. 

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    January 25, 2017 10:35 AM EST

    Grimweaver said:

    My character hates racism, but his hatred burns hotter for the Thalmor. After murdering his family (down to just him, his mother, and sister) he made it his personal mission to eliminate every single one of them (since before Helgen). He struggled with the decision for a long time because he felt the Stormcloaks were threatening in their own way... but he ultimately decided to side with them, not because their beliefs are aligned, but he sees the Thalmor as a greater threat that should be eliminated first. Beyond that, I haven't decided if it will be him or one of his parents that threatens to take necessary action if Ulfric and his 'Stormthugs' push their racist agendas- most likely his mom, since between the three of them she's slightly less diplomatic XD

    I love these posts that share you and your character's beliefs. Very interesting, Grim.

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    January 25, 2017 10:38 AM EST

    Zonnonn said: Choosing a side for the Civil Warbhqs always felt quite... arbitrary for me. I feel like, regardless of who wins the war, the Empire will inevitably take over the province. The Stormcloaks appear to me as a faction that exists only to fight, when peace comes and they all go back to their fields and homes, their fire and passion will die. So if (and in my opinion, when) people realise their standard of living and comfort would be better under the Empire, it won't be long until the red dragon of the empire will return. So for this reason, I choose the Imperials, as speeding along the inevitable seems like the natural point of progression for me.

    Zonn, can you take that to the debate thread? Because I have a really good counter :p

    Your view of the Empire always winning sounds quite logical. Allow me to ask, why do you believe in speeding up something that you think is already inevitable?

     

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    January 25, 2017 10:40 AM EST

    Bonelord said:

    I normally go with the Empire, Noodles pointed out quite correctly that Ulfric is a dormant Thalmor agent devoted to nothing more than the dominions victory, see Ulfrics dossier in the Thalmor Embassy, also I am a member of the British Empire and proud of it, role play wise its great for me as I have so many different countries to fight for while still being loyal to my own.

    Bonelord you're really baiting me lol. I like your comparison of the Empire to Britain, they're both extremely similar. Just look at the East Empire Shipping Company!

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    January 25, 2017 10:41 AM EST

    Karver the Lorc said: I go with Orcs, which means that Empire is the only reasonable choice.

    I like your loyalty :p

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    January 25, 2017 10:43 AM EST

    Gollum said: Lol. The races aren't equal; that's what makes them unique and fun to play. I'm sorry, but saying you'll always side with people who stop racists is crazy. Even if those people are rapists or necromantic soul snatching wizards, saying "I hate knife ears" makes the racists the bad guys? I consider myself neutral, really. If anyone is morally wrong, it's the Dominion, but Ulfric ruined chances to work with the Empire, which means the Dominion/Empire alliance will win, so who is the real bad guy? There is none, except ambition. Too grey to pick a side.

    I really like this first point you bring up. As for the second half, do you believe ambition to only be evil? Or do you believe that it depends on how it's used?

  • January 25, 2017 11:33 AM EST

    RogueSilver said:

    Karver the Lorc said: I go with Orcs, which means that Empire is the only reasonable choice.

    I like your loyalty :p

    I´m an Orc. Orc with dream of Orsinium comes true, which is united nation of Orcs, accepted by the rest of the world. Acceptance of Orcs as people, not as beasts, that´s what I strife for. And that can´t be achieved with Nords, who don´t give a shit about Orcs, Orsinium and Trinimac as much as Orcs don´t give a shit about Nords, Skyrim and Talos. Orsinium has a long standing tradition of alliance with Empire, giving the Orcs acceptance they want, protection from Bretons and Redguards leveling Orsinium and in return they support Empire´s Legions with the best - both weapons and shocktroopers. 

    That is my subjective opinion. Oherwise my choice is always defined by the race I play. Yes, TES is subjective, but it always matters where you come from, so the opinion of particular race is important.

    Orcs - Stronghold Orcs don´t give a shit about Nords, Dominion or Empire, they´re neutral. Orsinium Orcs stand with Empire as I explained before. 

    Bretons - Allied with Empire, pretty easy choice.

    Dunmer - Morrowind Dunmer probably don´t give a crap about neither side, so neutral. Skyrim Dunmer are a different story though. They definitely do not side with Dominion, too much difference in believes. I can see Skyrim Dunmer (as a whole) to join Stormcloaks, to prove they can actually be treated like people, but most probable option is that they would rather believe that Empire would treat them better than Nords - which is like shit. Or they could just weather all the shit and wait who wins.

    Argonians - treated like shit by Nords, don´t give a crap about Empire or Dominon. Neutral

    Khajiit - treated like shit by Nords, their moons were saved by Dominion, so majority would choose Dominion over Empire

    Bosmer - Under the thumb of Thalmor, so most likely Dominion. 

    Imperials - Empire, lol

    Altmer - Majority with Dominion, but there can be few exceptions, like Fasendil, who prefer Empire.

    Nords - half joins Empire, half Stormcloaks, so even they don´t have it exactly clear. Because there´s absolutely nothing that´s appealing about their culture, to me, and prefer Imperialized Nords, cause those are actually able to see the bigger picture. 

    Redguards - Bad relations with Empire, even worse with Dominion. They are actually the only ones who I can see joining Nords, cause their situation is more or less similar. Forebears would be pissed about Talos too, while Crowns would be more pissed about secluding Hammerfell. 

     

    So yeah, I´m objectively subjective. And when I do the math...Ulfric is tusked.

     


    This post was edited by The Lorc of Flowers at January 25, 2017 11:34 AM EST
    • 210 posts
    January 25, 2017 11:39 AM EST

    I´m an Orc. Orc with dream of Orsinium comes true, which is united nation of Orcs, accepted by the rest of the world. Acceptance of Orcs as people, not as beasts, that´s what I strife for. 

    Make Orsinium great again (for the how-many-I-lost-count times)! :D

  • January 25, 2017 11:45 AM EST

    KaiserSoSage said:

    I´m an Orc. Orc with dream of Orsinium comes true, which is united nation of Orcs, accepted by the rest of the world. Acceptance of Orcs as people, not as beasts, that´s what I strife for. 

    Make Orsinium great again (for the how-many-I-lost-count times)! :D

    "Skyrim belongs to Nords!"... pfff, what a bullshit. Even Orcs were there first

    And yes, Kaiser, I lost the count. But what matters to me is when Redguards and Bretons leveled Orsinium in Fourth Era it was the Legion that served as rear-guard against those tuskers and escorted the refugees to West Reach. Legion of Mede´s Empire. That matters to me. 

    • 400 posts
    January 25, 2017 12:46 PM EST

    RogueSilver said:

    Gollum said: Lol. The races aren't equal; that's what makes them unique and fun to play. I'm sorry, but saying you'll always side with people who stop racists is crazy. Even if those people are rapists or necromantic soul snatching wizards, saying "I hate knife ears" makes the racists the bad guys? I consider myself neutral, really. If anyone is morally wrong, it's the Dominion, but Ulfric ruined chances to work with the Empire, which means the Dominion/Empire alliance will win, so who is the real bad guy? There is none, except ambition. Too grey to pick a side.

    I really like this first point you bring up. As for the second half, do you believe ambition to only be evil? Or do you believe that it depends on how it's used?

    Nah, that was dumb of me to write. Ambition to me isn't bad or good exclusively. What I should've said is that it seems like ambition is the main plot driving force in the Great War and post war. There is no Sauron-like antagonist or Gandalf-like hero in the context of the the Civil War, which is why it is too grey for me to pick a side.

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    January 25, 2017 12:56 PM EST

    Gollum said:

    RogueSilver said:

    Gollum said: Lol. The races aren't equal; that's what makes them unique and fun to play. I'm sorry, but saying you'll always side with people who stop racists is crazy. Even if those people are rapists or necromantic soul snatching wizards, saying "I hate knife ears" makes the racists the bad guys? I consider myself neutral, really. If anyone is morally wrong, it's the Dominion, but Ulfric ruined chances to work with the Empire, which means the Dominion/Empire alliance will win, so who is the real bad guy? There is none, except ambition. Too grey to pick a side.

    I really like this first point you bring up. As for the second half, do you believe ambition to only be evil? Or do you believe that it depends on how it's used?

    Nah, that was dumb of me to write. Ambition to me isn't bad or good exclusively. What I should've said is that it seems like ambition is the main plot driving force in the Great War and post war. There is no Sauron-like antagonist or Gandalf-like hero in the context of the the Civil War, which is why it is too grey for me to pick a side.

    Totally understandable, it's a very gray conflict. I partially share your view, which makes me even more sure of which side of the war I'm on. It sounds contradictory, but looking at it from that perspective makes you question literally everything about all sides of the Civil War.

    • 202 posts
    January 25, 2017 1:18 PM EST

    "There is no Sauron-like antagonist or Gandalf-like-"

     I BEG TO DIFFER.

     

    No, but really, I myself am neutral about the war. My characters decide their allegiance, not me.

    • 1 posts
    January 25, 2017 1:45 PM EST

    I tend to side with the Empire simply because I feel that if the Thalmor are ever to be overthrown then tamriel has to be united against them. As of now the empire seems to be best postioned to do so if it ever happens.

    • 57 posts
    January 26, 2017 7:23 AM EST
    RogueSilver said:

    Mercurias said:

    I'm personally of the belief that the Empire is the most morally correct of the three. While far from perfect, and mired in political corruption, the empire at least presents a standing belief in comparitive equality between and amongst races. Growing up in the US South, I've seen racism up close. It hasn't magically disappeared since a black poresident was elected, and in fact amongst the real die-hards it's only gotten worse as they dig in their heels and begin to feel persecuted. Ulfric's policies concerning non-Nords set my teeth on edge, regardless of how otherwise honorable it can be argued he is. That's just a hot button issue for me. I'll always side with the people who stop the racists in games like this.

     

    Sorry for breaking the thread on the second post. >.>

    I live in the Southern U.S and have been all over the country, and can say personally that I have noticed racism everywhere. It is not exclusive to the south like you have suggested, so please reframe from generalizing a large population of actual good people. Anyways, might I ask for another reason you're an Imperial? Apart from the 'Cloak's "racism"?

    I was born and raised in Nashville, Tennessee. I went to college in southern Virginia and Kentucky. I currently live in Thompsons Station, TN. I've traveled to every other formerly-Confederate state over the course of my life. I may not have lived all over, but I think I've got a pretty good idea about the very good and very bad parts of where I come from. I'll respectfully request you don't put words in my mouth and claim I implied that racism is unique to this part of my country, but if you've opened a history book in the last hundred sixty or so years you should have an idea on exactly why I could think it's a bit more part of the culture here. I grew up where Klansmen had yearly demonstrations in front of the state capital building in downtown Nashville, and a good friend of mine had his arm broken at an away high school basketball game because he was black, autistic, and 6'8", so a group of dads assumed he was probably dangerous when he wouldn't answer why he was in the halls (looking for a bathroom) and "restrained him for the police". I answered the question poised on the first post based on my own personal opinions. I'm not really so emotionally invested in a pair of warring fictional factions that I feel the need to argue about them now that my opinion has been given, but thanks for the opportunity.