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The Werewolf Under Judgement

    • 87 posts
    January 22, 2017 8:57 AM EST

    The Werewolf Under Judgement

     

     Image result for werewolf skyrim

                As any Skyrim fan will know, there exists a great divide between those who choose the path of lycanthropy and those whose choose the path of vampirism. It is common knowledge that  vampires are blood thirsty monsters who deserve no mercy. Werewolves, on the other hand, are great and noble hunters and warriors as demonstrated by the Companions. Or are they? What if werewolves were subject to the same moral standards as are vampires, and were found wanting? In the following paragraphs I will explain why lycanthropy is indeed morally wrong.

     

                A common phrase when describing the behavior of a person who has committed an especially reprehensible crime is that they "acted like an animal". This is applicable to werewolves too. And so at the very core of my argument against lycanthropy is that transforming oneself into animal is essentially reducing oneself to a person that is less than human. Werewolves lose their humanity(though I say humanity, this of course includes elves, khajiit, Orcs and argonians). What differentiates humans from all else is not, as commonly believed, that they are intelligent but rather that they have a rational soul. Thus they can discern right from wrong. Animals do not have this capacity, and therefore they do nothing wrong when they kill a humans, because they are merely following their instincts. And so when a lycanthrope transforms, they lose a part of their humanity and therefore have to rely on more primal needs, animal needs. These urges can lead to abhorrent crimes, which will be discussed in the next paragraph.

                One of the more disturbing aspects of lycanthropy is that of cannibalism. When one transforms in-game, the only way to extend time as a werewolf is to feed on corpses. So much for the moral superiority that lycanthrope lovers claim over vampires! It is hard to see how anyone could justify such a terrible act. Some may attempt to put forth the argument that because you one is in the form of a wolf it is not cannibalism. On a closer inspection this argument falls apart. First of all, the meaning of werewolf is literally man-wolf. It is a fusion of the two. A lycanthrope is not completely a wolf, nor is it altogether human(as explained earlier). Second of all, most werewolves can control their actions to a certain extent(though not completely, as will be shown in the third paragraph). This means that they are fully aware of what they are doing. They know perfectly well that they are eating of another man's flesh and that they are of the same species. There is absolutely no moral justification for this.

               

    Image result for werewolf skyrim

    Finally, werewolves are a danger to society. There's a reason lycanthropy is outlawed by the Empire. It poses a huge threat to regular citizens. This is shown especially well in the case of Sinding, who killed a young girl:

    Sinding will greet you by sadly remarking, "Come to gawk at the monster?" If you tell him that you heard he attacked a little girl, he'll answer, "Believe me, it wasn't anything I ever intended to do. I just... lost control. I tried to tell them, but none of them believe me. It's all on account of this blasted ring." Asking him instead about why he is imprisoned here will have him reply, "A little girl is dead because of me." and continue as if you told him about the attack. Either way, you can ask him about the ring, and he'll tell you, "This is the Ring of Hircine. I was told it could let me control my transformations. Perhaps it used to. But I'll never know. Hircine didn't care for my taking it, and threw a curse on it. I put it on... and the changes just came to me. I could never guess when. It would be at the worst times. Like... with the little girl." Further asking him what kind of transformation will be replied with: "I don't suppose there's a point in keeping the secret if I'm going to die in here anyway. I'm sure you've heard of men who shift to beasts under the influence of the moons." He'll continue by confessing, "I am one of them. A werewolf. It's my secret, and my shame. That's why I wanted the ring... it was said to give men like me control. Now I may look like a man, but I still feel the animal inside of me, as strong as ever." You can further press him for more information:

    "Why did this make you attack the girl?"

    "I had just come into Falkreath. They needed some help working the mill, and I thought that would be something safe. Something I could do. When I saw the little girl, I was just... I could feel it coming on. I could taste the... I needed to hunt. But this pitiful, limited body wasn't meant for hunting. Slow. No claws. Weak, mashing teeth for chewing cud. I held in my rage as long as I could. But it boiled inside of me. She looked so fragile. Helpless prey. And then... ... I feel terrible about what happened. About what I did. It would probably be best for everyone if I just went away."

    "Who is Hircine?"

    "Do you not know the Daedric Lord of the Hunt? He revels in the chase, and also gave the 'gift' of lycanthropy to mortals. A powerful force, not to be crossed. As I learned too late."

           -UESP wiki

     

    Image result for sinding skyrim

     

    Though werewolves may not intentionally kill innocent people, by becoming one they are opening themselves up to that possibility. The beast inside them has urges that one day may cause the lycanthrope to completely lose control and cause a terrible tragedy. The point is outlined especially well in the this book from the ESO:

    The prisoner called for me today, and I had the dubious privilege of listening to his confession. Separated from him by narrow iron bars that I knew would be insufficient to protect me, I took down his words with a trembling hand.

    What follows is my best rendering, although he was so soft-spoken that at times I had to guess at the precise words. Nevertheless, I am confident that what follows accurately represents the substance of our conversation:

    "I accepted this curse at a young age. I was impressionable. My packleader was a family friend and elder in our village. I wanted to be strong, and I relished the strength the curse gave me. I would not have called it a curse, then.

     

    "But with youth comes recklessness, and I was not good at disguising what I was. Eventually they discovered my true nature, and I was driven from the village.

     

    "My packleader failed me. He did not protect me. He cared too much about his own status to risk it for my sake. I was alone.

     

    "Everywhere I went I heard the shouts of crowds, saw the bright torches of the angry mob. I never lingered long in one place before my secret was discovered.

     

    "I came to hate them. The superstitious villagers. I came to resent what I couldn't have. I blamed them for my own recklessness. It was not the curse that plagued me, but the narrow-mindedness of these provincial men and women.

     

    "I was afraid to hunt, so I was always hungry, and the hunger turned me feral. It was in this state that I came across them. A family of innocent farmers, just like the innocent farmers that had hounded me from village after village. My vision turned red and I flew into a fury.

     

    "At last my hunger was satisfied.

     

    "But when the rage subsided and I looked on what I'd done, my stomach turned. This was what all those villagers were afraid of, when they tormented me with their torches and sickles.

     

    "That's when I acknowledged my curse for what it was. I have hunted many years since, afraid to turn myself in, but disgusted with my base impulses.

     

    "You don't realize what a great favor you have done, capturing me."

     

    And then having told his story, the creature, looking very much like a man, begged me to put him out of his misery.

               

                In conclusion, lycanthropy is morally wrong and should not under any circumstances be accepted willingly. Instead of skulking around in the hunting grounds of Hircine, join me in the great feast in Sovngarde! And for all you werewolf lovers out there, though the beast may seem dormant, some day it will take over you when you least expect it...

               

    • 367 posts
    January 22, 2017 9:10 AM EST

    *Patter of soft paws... Sniffs the air and growls...

    The Bloodmoon rises...... Fear the howl.......

     

    • 367 posts
    January 22, 2017 9:48 AM EST

    An interesting perspective. But it is at best a perspective….. And in the eyes of the wolf…. Ultimately flawed.

     

    ‘This is applicable to werewolves too. And so at the very core of my argument against lycanthropy is that transforming oneself into animal is essentially reducing oneself to a person that is less than human. Werewolves lose their humanity(though I say humanity, this of course includes elves, khajiit, Orcs and argonians). What differentiates humans from all else is not, as commonly believed, that they are intelligent but rather that they have a rational soul’.

     

    Also the fact that they wage war amongst their own kind ever since a Thalmor stepped out of a cave and said. “I want that…”

     

    And they will always wage war. How many bears, wolves and beasts wage war and slaughter innocent people by the hundreds if not thousands?

     

    If we all behaved like animals then there would be a lot less destruction…. How is this a bad thing?

     

    ‘And so when a lycanthrope transforms, they lose a part of their humanity and therefore have to rely on more primal needs, animal needs. These urges can lead to abhorrent crimes, which will be discussed in the next paragraph’.

     

    What like Genocide, rape and murder? Ransacking whole cities and putting countries to the torch? Mehhh

     

    ‘One of the more disturbing aspects of lycanthropy is that of cannibalism. When one transforms in-game, the only way to extend time as a werewolf is to feed on corpses. So much for the moral superiority that lycanthrope lovers claim over vampires! It is hard to see how anyone could justify such a terrible act. Some may attempt to put forth the argument that because you one is in the form of a wolf it is not cannibalism’.

     

    And Man’s superiority comes to the fore here. Mankind is still a beast and it is only the sense of ‘being superior’ that they distinguish themselves as being greater. If a carnivore comes across meat and it is hungry then it will feed. Mankind are wasteful, they throw away because they are far better than everything else in the world. There is a circle of life. Life and death are just two parts of this, nothing more.

     

    ‘Finally, werewolves are a danger to society. There's a reason lycanthropy is outlawed by the Empire’.

     

    Yes because werewolves makes us all look inside and see the real us. We are beasts. Yes we can think and build, but this only increases our ability to destroy.

     

    Mankind, Imperial, Argonian, Orc, Thalmor… None are excluded. Werewolves aren’t the most chaotic creatures in Tamriel…

    Mankind is…

    Where one man has the heart to do so much good in the world, the same man wields the power and will to bring such destruction that the earth itself cries….

     

    What manner of beast is more chaotic than this? The father loves his children and his wife yet for no more than a few gold he will let children starve and a wife become a widow.

     Here we have a wonderful picture of a werewolf killing bandits. Bandits by the way are outlawed by the empire. They are based in an Imperial fort.. So what is the Empire doing about the bandits? Nothing, so it's up to us werewolves to keep the realm of Skyrim safe.

    Quote from Sotek... U.O.T.W.

    “We hunt the plains. Bandits and rouges. At the moment until they all surrender, Stormcloaks, out there in the wilds. Not streets, villages and towns, no peasants tramps, travellers or farmers. Bandits, assassins rouge mages, necromancers, they are our game, our prey”.

     

     

    ‘What follows is my best rendering, although he was so soft-spoken that at times I had to guess at the precise words. Nevertheless, I am confident that what follows accurately represents the substance of our conversation:’

     

    Oh but I’m afraid it doesn’t…

     

     

    "I was afraid to hunt, so I was always hungry, and the hunger turned me feral. It was in this state that I came across them. A family of innocent farmers, just like the innocent farmers that had hounded me from village after village. My vision turned red and I flew into a fury.

     

     "At last my hunger was satisfied.

     

     "But when the rage subsided and I looked on what I'd done, my stomach turned”.

     

    And then having told his story, the creature, looking very much like a man, begged me to put him out of his misery.

     

    You state Sinding… That’s his name everyone..  Sinding…. You state he begged you to kill him…

     

    He says “So be it” if you decide to kill him then he runs. This a man struck with such terror of his own actions? No… he wants to live….

     

    He also says, “Thank the gods. Now let’s deal with these other hunters.. We hunt together”. He then states that he will remain there as a powerful ally.

     

    This is not the actions of a remorseful man but of a predator.

     

    Ok so I kicked myself in the tail here… No, not when we consider two last facts.

     

    1 He could have said he will stay in the cave and live out his life but he is there waiting for you to call upon him to fight and kill. He’s a killer, plain and simple. The Imperial army is full of them…

     

    2 He stated that he held the beast in check for as long as he could. Why did he not just leave? If he did then the girl would still be alive.

     

    Sinding in my view is a poor example of what happens when someone becomes a werewolf.

    Aela the Huntress

    Farkass

    Vilkas

    Kodlak

     

    These are good examples of what a man or woman can become……

     

    Conclusion

    Werewolves aren’t morally wrong but the races of Tamriel are fatally flawed. It is not the beast who is the problem but the man….

     

    You don’t see Aela the Huntress killing Villagers do you…. Have a few days out on the plains with her and you'll see a different side altogether. Don't take Sinding to be 'the mold' of werewolves. He is more of a mold of man.

    P.S.

    Touch one hair on Aela's head and I will hunt you down with all the hounds of....  

    Really need to get this under control...

    Sotek Loyal Hound of Hircine


    This post was edited by Sotek at January 22, 2017 10:09 AM EST
    • 87 posts
    January 22, 2017 9:59 AM EST

    So when Aela is in her lupine form in the Undercroft during the Companions questline to give the player beast blood, she doesn't attack. Why is that? Oh, it is due to the fact she has complete control over it. She's mastered it, which brings up my question: what about those who have complete, total control over the wolf inside? 

     

    And Sotek, good lord XP

    • 367 posts
    January 22, 2017 10:02 AM EST

    What? All I done was raise one or two minor points. 

    Ok so I raised fur and claws and fangs and I'm a 'little' protective to Aela.... 

    It's a wolf thing.....  Awwwwooooo

     

    • 87 posts
    January 22, 2017 11:30 AM EST
    I am sorry Sotek my good Daedric loving friend but your arguments don't convince me. Ultimately your argument boils down to "mankind is bad" and therefore there's nothing wrong with acting like an animal. If we all acted like anmals, we would not right from wrong. This is why it is wrong to dehumanize ourselves. Though it is true that humans have committed terrible acts, we realize that those acts are wrong and attempt to rectify them. Imagine how bad it would be if we did not know right from wrong. There would be mass destruction.

    In your second point you misunderstand the quotes. They are two different excerpts. The second is not Sinding speaking.

    Finally, it is quite ironic that you mention Kodlak, Villas and Farkas because all three wanted to cleanse themselves of their curse. They wanted to remain forever in Sovngarde, not trapped in the hunting grounds of a sadistic Daedric Lord.
    This post was edited by Decumus Scotti at January 22, 2017 11:30 AM EST
    • 104 posts
    January 23, 2017 2:19 PM EST

    We of this world do what is in our nature to do, does not the salesman apologise to you for the disturbance? yet continually knocks until you answer, same with werewolves there is a relentless knocking and some day the door will be answered, sure he/she will be genuinely sorry for what they have done but, in my humble opinion nobody can act against their nature, at least not willingly, so is it wrong to be a werewolf, not if it is one's nature to be so,  Human beings are different in that we have intelligence, and can willingly act against our nature making decisions that not only change our lives but those of others however inhuman some of those decisions are.

    • 122 posts
    January 24, 2017 1:15 AM EST

    I would state that, ultimately, transforming onself into either a Vampire or a Lycanthrope takes a little finagling in ordher to justify, particularly accepting the Vampire Lord's blood.

     

    In either of these transformations, a character is stepping away from humanity (Or, uh, 'mermanity'? Or 'beastmanity'?). A werewolf with a wolf's instincts and power alongside a man's intellect is just as inhuman as a dead body animated by a daedric lord's curse and fueled by the blood of the living. In both cases, however, it's been shown somewhat that one's race is less important than what one does with it. Both imbibe something that comes from people. The only difference is in blood versus the heart itself.

     

    Aela describes the werewolf form as being empowered if one "has the stomach to feed" rather than it being a requirement, while Sinding describes it as if it were an uncontrollable bloodlust, but only after being cursed by the Ring of Hircine. Aela seemed much more at peace with her wolf than Singing, which lends me to believe that what matters most in terms of control over the beast is either a) How one embraces it or b) the means by which lyncanthropy was acquired. Either way, it appears that at least some werewolves can stave off the need to kill and feed.

     

    Vampires, likewise, seem not to need blood in order to live, but abstaining for long enough seems to negatively affect at least one strain of vampire (Think the Grey Prince's father from Oblivion). It seems to be, at the least, very unpleasant to go without blood for long. The only Vampires we know of who seem to be able to be immune to this are Serana and her mother, who both went without drinking for hundreds of years without a negative change. Both, however, were talented necromancers, and that may have had an affect.

     

    It really doesn't matter all that much. I would personally say that, in terms of gameplay, the Werewolf is probably a little more powerful in melee, but lacks the versatility and numerous buffs to human form granted to a vampire. In exchange, a Werewolf's appearence largely remains unchanged in human form, and it doesn't recieve a weakness to anything other than the fairly rare silver weapons and an inamility to gain the well-rested bonus. You can be ravanous for flesh and blood, relying on the ring of Namira to even feed in human form, or you can not. You can only feed on bad guys, or not at all, or you can run around towns devouring everything in your path. 

     

    I'd say it's really up to the player to do with their curse what they will. 

    • 87 posts
    January 24, 2017 6:26 AM EST
    Mercurias said:

    I would state that, ultimately, transforming onself into either a Vampire or a Lycanthrope takes a little finagling in ordher to justify, particularly accepting the Vampire Lord's blood.

     

    In either of these transformations, a character is stepping away from humanity (Or, uh, 'mermanity'? Or 'beastmanity'?). A werewolf with a wolf's instincts and power alongside a man's intellect is just as inhuman as a dead body animated by a daedric lord's curse and fueled by the blood of the living. In both cases, however, it's been shown somewhat that one's race is less important than what one does with it. Both imbibe something that comes from people. The only difference is in blood versus the heart itself.

     

    Aela describes the werewolf form as being empowered if one "has the stomach to feed" rather than it being a requirement, while Sinding describes it as if it were an uncontrollable bloodlust, but only after being cursed by the Ring of Hircine. Aela seemed much more at peace with her wolf than Singing, which lends me to believe that what matters most in terms of control over the beast is either a) How one embraces it or b) the means by which lyncanthropy was acquired. Either way, it appears that at least some werewolves can stave off the need to kill and feed.

     

    Vampires, likewise, seem not to need blood in order to live, but abstaining for long enough seems to negatively affect at least one strain of vampire (Think the Grey Prince's father from Oblivion). It seems to be, at the least, very unpleasant to go without blood for long. The only Vampires we know of who seem to be able to be immune to this are Serana and her mother, who both went without drinking for hundreds of years without a negative change. Both, however, were talented necromancers, and that may have had an affect.

     

    It really doesn't matter all that much. I would personally say that, in terms of gameplay, the Werewolf is probably a little more powerful in melee, but lacks the versatility and numerous buffs to human form granted to a vampire. In exchange, a Werewolf's appearence largely remains unchanged in human form, and it doesn't recieve a weakness to anything other than the fairly rare silver weapons and an inamility to gain the well-rested bonus. You can be ravanous for flesh and blood, relying on the ring of Namira to even feed in human form, or you can not. You can only feed on bad guys, or not at all, or you can run around towns devouring everything in your path. 

     

    I'd say it's really up to the player to do with their curse what they will. 

    It is definitely up to the player to do as they will with their curse. However, I would argue that one cannot simultaneously play a righteous character and be a werewolf.
    This post was edited by Decumus Scotti at January 24, 2017 6:27 AM EST
    • 295 posts
    January 24, 2017 6:39 AM EST

    Decumus Scotti said:
    Mercurias said:

    I'd say it's really up to the player to do with their curse what they will. 

    It is definitely up to the player to do as they will with their curse. However, I would argue that one cannot simultaneously play a righteous character and be a werewolf.

    Yes, you totally can. I have done so, but that character became a werewolf for a reason and it was one of my most poignant playthroughs of the Companions and has served as a spring board for a ton of creativity on my part. :D

    And I don't disagree with you regarding Lycanthropy and Vampirism. We actually take similar stands. 

    • 275 posts
    January 26, 2017 8:01 PM EST

    I don't agree that werewolves and vampires are naturally evil, it's just that those who use it are usually evil. It's like the blood magic from Dragon Age, Blood Magic, like Vampirism/Lycanthropy is not inherently evil, it's just that most people who use those powers can't control those powers. Sinding is a unique case, he was cursed by Hircine when he stole his ring.

    Both Hidden-In-Shadow (my Oblivion character) and Walks-In-Darkness (Skyrim) are vampires but you could never tell at first because they are great people. They are true heros in the eyes of the people but they just barely keep their needs in check. If Hidden-In-Shadows has to bite someone to prevent starvation the victim must either be dead, are going to die (bandits and such), or allow it to happen (though that's quite rare), if he can't get a supplier right away he will leave civilization for a time and look for a victim until his thirst is sated. My Skyrim character has got the bright idea of putting the people he kills' blood in vials to drink later so that's a little better, he loves mixing it up with some sujamma too.

    • 1467 posts
    January 26, 2017 8:11 PM EST

    ...Must resist urge...to turn this...into a Blood Magic debate ::P Blast, you nearly got me there Ebonslayer.

    Anyway...I think I'd have to take it case by case, and just in Skyrim we've got more examples of good Werewolves than bad ones. Though it is interesting that most of the good ones also seem to want to throw away the gift (Kodlak, Farkas, Vilkas) and I'd say that Aela is the only example of a Werewolf that has truly embraced her wolf side, and she seems to have a fair bit more control/knowledge than the others on the form. I wouldn't say it's a matter of good vs. evil, but of Beast vs. Control. If the Werewolf can control their turn (like the Companions) then there isn't anything really wrong with them, most of them could just as easily kill someone in human form and none of them ever really lost control of themselves during a turn. However, there are some that are little better than feral animals, perhaps by choice or perhaps because they've been driven mad but some Werewolves aren't in control of themselves.

    There's no blanket statement that I would or could make about the evilness of Werewolves, so I'll just leave it as it is. 

    • 275 posts
    January 26, 2017 8:23 PM EST

    Dragonborn1721 said:

    ...Must resist urge...to turn this...into a Blood Magic debate ::P Blast, you nearly got me there Ebonslayer.

    Damnit!


    This post was edited by Ebonslayer at January 26, 2017 8:54 PM EST
    • 33 posts
    February 2, 2017 10:49 AM EST

    Some people think we are savage beasts that kill everything on sight however we can choose to avoid this however that choice is not easily done we really don't have a choose to kill when in beast form we have to eat and kill in order to live on but there are werewolves that just kill for the fun of it with no honor. I do agree with you I just wanted to get this off my chest.