Forums » Elder Scrolls

Debate reopened: The legitimacy of Talos

    • 50 posts
    January 6, 2017 5:05 PM EST

    Hi guys it's Decumus Scotti here with an age old debate which I'm sure you are all familiar with. Recently I have been working on an intricate backstory for my next play through of Skyrim (with the usage of the excellent mod Requiem: The Roleplaying Overhaul) and I was gaining some information to help me along the way. I went on over to Tamriel Vault and while I was perusing old lore articles written by LoreMaster Vix and I came across something quite disturbing. It was an article describing the Aldmeri Dominion. Though the author claimed otherwise, it seemed to me a defense of the Thalmor. One particular point struck hard: Talos is not a legitimate god and so the Thalmor was right to ban his worship. What do you think of this?

     

    He describes it here:

    4.Banning of Talos Worship: Now this is the big one, a stipulation put in place by the Thalmor that let people crucify them, and yet it's the one that they are most likely in the right to call for beyond a reasonable doubt. It's not a simple measure of infringing on some supposed right to religion, it's about dismantling a bloodthirsty racist cult. They said they would do it, this is the first step of 'purification for all' that was put forward by the Thalmor Creed.

     

    Talos, a righteous god, a grand and wonderful ascended Divine that opened up a glorious age of prosperity and peace... not from the Altmeri point of view. We know that Talos wasn't born a god, how did he become a god? Through being a bloodthirsty warlord? (Redguard) Through unleashing a weapon of mass destruction on a peaceful foreign population center? (On Morrowind) By turning the weapon on his political opponents at home? (Arcturian Heresy) Through viciously depopulating subjugated areas and causing wanton destruction? (Pocket Guide to the Empire 3rd edition) Through having his ethnocentric ideals around human supremacy used to abort a half-breed child from his lover so his legitimate heir wouldn't have any competition for the throne? (The Real Barenziah) Why was Tiber Septim's heritage, loyalty, and motivations questioned even after he had won one greatest and most decisive battle of his career at the battle of Hunding Bay? (Pocket Guide to the Empire 1st edition) Simply put, through what method, and for what reason did Tiber Septim become a god? There is one though, it was spelled out quite clearly in Cyrodiilic culture.

     

    Cyrodiilic and Nord cultures venerate heroes, that much is true, the Elves do it as well. However, while the Elven heroes are often from the first generations of their king, or through certain specific circumstances in the case of the tribunal, the Cyrodiils and Nords will simply set up a shrine and start praising their savior as a God (Reflections of Cult Worship). It's common, Tiber Septim did this to his own predecessor Emperor Cuhlecain by establishing the Cult of Zero-Emperor (Arcturian Heresy, Pocket Guide to the Empire 3rd edition). One of the most peculiar points of note is that the central Cyrodiilic people were not generally in favor of Talos as a Divine, his converts were from three groups of people: the military, the provincials, and those recently assimilated into Imperial culture (Reflections on Cult Worship) so while the altruism behind some of the dialogue of 'The Talos Mistake' might not be correct, the general principle that he was merely a great man and Emperor, is still viewed favorably.

     

    Often the question associated with the Thalmor/Human dichotomay is that it's phrased in the form of a Nord question. “Is Talos a god?” There's evidence back and forth for this. The Nords have phrased the debate on their own terms by making it an issue of religious freedoms. It bypasses the quintessential Altmeri counter-question which is never asked directly, “Why are you following him?” (As an aside, I feel into this trap many many times. It's a question always put forward with the unquestionable and unspoken answer that Talos should be worshiped and it's merely a matter of if they can worship him) What is the purpose of worshiping someone like Talos? As a point of note, Reman Cyrodiil had a cult and was worshiped as a hero god, Pelinal Whitestrake did too, so why did Talos become so popular for them?

     

    The reason for this has almost nothing to do with Talos, it has to do with someone far earlier, Lorkhan. Nords in particular have associated Talos worship with worship of Shor, the Nord name for Lorkhan. This has allowed them a chance to transpose Lorkhan worship onto Talos as a Divine all his own. The Nords in particular have ascribed Talos the position of Shor that was never mentioned in traditional worship “Talos has become Lord of the Divines” (Priest Heimskr, Nords Arise!). It makes sense, Shor and Septim have many similarities: being a warlord with an ethnocentric point of view (Redguard, Pocket Guide to the Empire 1st edition), they were notable for uniting human lands, they were both notable for being vicious, both were ascribed to being pure Atmoran Nords making them the quintessential role models for Nords. But when the Cyrodiilic 'apologist' religion of the 8 Divines were being created, the Alessians understood the value of not including Shor in their worship as it was offensive and vicious and couldn't win converts on its own message of bloodshed and violence (Shezzar and the Divines). They half-heartedly included him as a 'god' but not a recognized Divine in Shezzar. The Nords were unhappy with this but accepted it. When Talos worship became acceptable they simply used him as a method of transference between Shor to Talos and thus had their Divines not only included, but placed at the top of the pantheon.

     

    Ergo worship to Talos is worship to the ideologies of Shor, and thus Lorkhan which is why the Altmer are so displeased. Likewise, this same religion that had already compromised their own gods was forced on them in the form of the 8 Divines. Thus when Talos became the 9th Divine they were forced to worship him too. There are still very very likely Altmer alive that knew Tiber Septim first hand, it's only been about 700 years. Thus they still remember the time when Talos was their cruel, vicious conqueror and humans see it as something that always was and always had been. The Altmer wish to correct this, after all, they have no problem with the 8 Divines, in fact they support this, but the worship of Talos is simply worshiping the memory of a person who's quintessential personality was to demean the accomplishments of non humans and subjugate them under his rule. There is one group that would whole heartedly agree that Talos was a god, the Psijics. However, that doesn't make him a Divine, and it doesn't make him good, it makes him merely important. Simply following the path of religious connections in the Altmeri tradition, this would make Talos a paradox, a Sithian creation that was by their very definition, a Daedra, which gives him power, authority, and ruthlessness, everything that traditional Altmeri religion says they are to avoid or else they'll end up like Trinimac. The worship of Talos, is therefor, a corruption in and of itself no matter how an Altmer will look at it. That is the reason why Talos worship is banned.

     

    For the full article, see here http://tamrielvault.com/groups/topic/view/group_id/1/topic_id/4496/post_id/40080


    This post was edited by Decumus Scotti at January 6, 2017 6:51 PM EST
    • 272 posts
    January 6, 2017 5:07 PM EST

    *Prepares popcorn and 3D glasses.*

    • Moderator
    • 77 posts
    January 6, 2017 5:28 PM EST

    Takes a massive breath to read the full article

    • 538 posts
    January 6, 2017 8:31 PM EST

    So Talos was a terrible person that Nords and Cyrodiils venerate for his conquering and anti-elven ways, huh? Well that certainly paints him in a new light. I can see how some elves might take offense to such a thing. 

    But when the Cyrodiilic 'apologist' religion of the 8 Divines were being created, the Alessians understood the value of not including Shor in their worship as it was offensive and vicious and couldn't win converts on its own message of bloodshed and violence (Shezzar and the Divines). They half-heartedly included him as a 'god' but not a recognized Divine in Shezzar. 

    -

    Likewise, this same religion that had already compromised their own gods was forced on them in the form of the 8 Divines. Thus when Talos became the 9th Divine they were forced to worship him too.

    -

    There is one group that would whole heartedly agree that Talos was a god, the Psijics. However, that doesn't make him a Divine, and it doesn't make him good, it makes him merely important. 

    So if Alessia didn't recognize Talos, Elves reject him, the Psijics accept him, and Nords worship him, it makes the whole situation smell more of cultural animosity wrapped up in politics than godhood-illegitimacy. I'm just not sure that being a racist conqueror disqualifies one from ascending to godhood. 

    • 50 posts
    January 6, 2017 10:16 PM EST
    First of all, being a bad person does not disqualify someone from becoming a god. Many of the Aedra have committed questionable acts. This does not rob them of their god status. Second of all, though the Elves may not consider Talos a god, they have no business telling other people who they can worship.
    This post was edited by Decumus Scotti at January 6, 2017 10:16 PM EST
    • 813 posts
    January 6, 2017 10:25 PM EST

    Hmm, I have to agree with that last bit. I think my argument is more that what they do isn't that horrible in the contectual space of The Elder Scrolls. In real life I'd be 100% against it (generally not a fan of telling people what and who they can worship), but in regards to TES you have to remember that this is fairly comman. The Nords have taken over the Forsworn Lands and then basically said you guys are evil assholes for worshipping your spirits and daedra (and the Forsworn started a rebellion exactly like what the Nords did). The various groups in Morrowind have been changing who's evil for worshipping which gods in a number of different ways (The Tribunal, The Good Daedra vs. The House of Troubles, The Ashlanders...) all those groups have treated each other pretty poorly whenever they've been in charge. Really if we were being completely realistic here, then outlawing Daedra Worshipping would be a shit thing to do, and it kind of is.

    Yes what the Thalmor are doing is wrong, but really they're just one ordinary group that's  being painted in a worse light than others because Skyrim is a Human/Nord-centric story. I think that's more what Vix's original argument was about, that we paint the Thalmor as the single worst group in TES History but there are a number of other religious (or non-religious) groups that have done similar things in the past. They aren't really great role-models for children, but they're a realistic fantasy/medieval organisiation with an isssue with Talos.

     

    Heh, that said I am more in support of allowing the religious freedom of the Nords but yeah, it isn't a unique situation by any means. 

    • 50 posts
    January 6, 2017 11:42 PM EST
    Dragonborn1721 said:

    Hmm, I have to agree with that last bit. I think my argument is more that what they do isn't that horrible in the contectual space of The Elder Scrolls. In real life I'd be 100% against it (generally not a fan of telling people what and who they can worship), but in regards to TES you have to remember that this is fairly comman. The Nords have taken over the Forsworn Lands and then basically said you guys are evil assholes for worshipping your spirits and daedra (and the Forsworn started a rebellion exactly like what the Nords did). The various groups in Morrowind have been changing who's evil for worshipping which gods in a number of different ways (The Tribunal, The Good Daedra vs. The House of Troubles, The Ashlanders...) all those groups have treated each other pretty poorly whenever they've been in charge. Really if we were being completely realistic here, then outlawing Daedra Worshipping would be a shit thing to do, and it kind of is.

    Yes what the Thalmor are doing is wrong, but really they're just one ordinary group that's  being painted in a worse light than others because Skyrim is a Human/Nord-centric story. I think that's more what Vix's original argument was about, that we paint the Thalmor as the single worst group in TES History but there are a number of other religious (or non-religious) groups that have done similar things in the past. They aren't really great role-models for children, but they're a realistic fantasy/medieval organisiation with an isssue with Talos.

     

    Heh, that said I am more in support of allowing the religious freedom of the Nords but yeah, it isn't a unique situation by any means. 

    Yes I agree one hundred percent with this. This being said, the reason the Thalmor are being painted like this is because they are a threat to the very existence of human civilization and they wield much more power then any other group in Elder Scrolls history.
    • 813 posts
    January 7, 2017 1:48 AM EST

    Yes I agree one hundred percent with this. This being said, the reason the Thalmor are being painted like this is because they are a threat to the very existence of human civilization and they wield much more power then any other group in Elder Scrolls history.

    Blast, we've gone and done it now, gone way to far into lore to justify my ideas here. 

    Ah, well really are they all that powerful? In terms of pure military power, they're only capable of fighting the Emprie with three provinces behind them, and even then I think it was more of a draw. The political and social power that they got afterwards is ridiculous in my opinion, so in that regards they're strangely powerful. They have footholds in at least 6 provinces (Cyrodiil, Summerset, Valenwood, Elsweyr , Skyrim and Hammerfall) with High Rock being highly probable...Black Marsh is pretty much a no-go zone for them and I think that Morrowind might just be considered too weak to bother with. 

    Anyway, my point is that they have a strange amount of power, but it isn't primarily military power like, say the likes of Talos, Reman, The Tribunal and possibly the Argonian's current army (which is the only known force capable of completely keeping the Oblivion Crisis contained). I mean, honestly it's difficult to really comprehend just how much ppower Talos had behind him. I mean Numidium is such an obscure and strange weapon/power that we really can't compare it with anything the Thalmor have.

    Perhaps the Eye of Magnus would have been their military power, but if we assume the Arch-Mage/Dragonborn managed to stop them from getting it, they just don't have the sheer power that other armies have had behind them in the past.

    Though, I certainly won't argue that the amount of strategic power they have might outweigh that, and it's not like anyone has a Numidium level threat to use against them. We have mortal, splintered and weakened armies across the map (bar Black Marsh probably), so the fact that they've got cells operating openly in most provinces gives them an almost unheard of amount of power. I like to think that for every Thalmor Agent we see there's probably at least one more we can't see. I just realised that I'm more comparing the Altmeri Armies and other Armies rather than the Thalmor themsevles...Ah well, same sort of thing either way really. 

     

    Thanks for starting this discussion Decumus, I always dig a little bit of Lore talk, especially when it's the Altmer (I'm a bit of a lore-nut for the Altmer). 

  • January 7, 2017 3:31 AM EST

    To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.

    To achieve this goal, we must:

    1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.

    2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.

    3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit.

     

    The Thalmor is easily the most dangerous organization in the Aurbis. Moreso than Talos.

    They cannot be understood. They are the Other and they hate everything that even smells like mortality.

    And they're going to win in the end.


    This post was edited by The Lorc of Flowers at January 7, 2017 3:31 AM EST
    • 1207 posts
    January 7, 2017 4:01 AM EST

    Well, if you pray at a shrine of Talos you get a blessing. In TES IV there was a quest "Blood of the Divines" in which you needed the blood of a god to get to Mankar's Paradise. There really is no question on Talos' divinity - he ascended to godhood via the Fourth Walking way: Mantling, the steps of the dead. In this case by mantling Lorkhan who is also Shor.

    In TES there is this whole thing about threes. The Warrior, The Mage and The Witness. If we think of that three and apply it the the very highest super-gradient, Nir, Anu and Padomay, and then look at their story, we will see that echoed down the gradient ladder right to the mortal level. By re-enacting these stories which always involve violence and betrayal which is basically Lorkhan's story, Hjalti, Wulfharth and Zurin became an oversoul known as Talos. An oversoul is complicated business but it means that each is independant while still being one.

    The trouble with Talos is that we need to research the original sources. Indeed, the mindset is that the Numidium laid waste to the Summerset Isles and decimated the Altmer in spectacularly brutal fashion. Mainly that comes from this sentence:

    The conquest and assimilation of Summerset into the Empire is remembered by many a living Altmer with horror only partially diminished by time. Certainly, the pride of the people has never recovered.

    You can extrapolate all you want from that and imagine a nuclear bomb going off. Yet that does not make good science. Indeed, we can find another quote from an OOG source which says:

    Numidium's siege of Alinor:

    It's not the Brass God that wrecks everything so much as it is all the plane(t)s and timelines that orbit it, singing world-refusals.

    The Surrender of Alinor happened in one hour, but Numidium's siege lasted from the Mythic Era until long into the Fifth. Some Mirror Logicians of the Altmer fight it still in chrysalis shells that phase in and out of Tamrielic Prime, and their brethren know nothing of their purpose unless they stare too long and break their own possipoints.

    So what can we glean from that? Bloody conqueror or someone with a big-assed gun who didn't even really need to use it before the elves fell to their little golden knees like so many little golden pussies. In fact, we could probably spin the whole "Talos is mean" angle right back on the elves just by looking at this little quote:

    The formation of the Aldmeri Dominion in the Second Era is discussed in the section on Summerset’s ally, Valenwood. For Summerset, the kings of Colovia were no threat, but the Dominion allowed them to eliminate the Maormer outposts that had been established along the western coast of the mainland. Thus, the Dominion thrived until the coming of Tiber Septim.

    So the butthurt Aldmeri Dominion have both cause and motive to twist the facts as they see fit. Big mean Tiber came and wrecked their plan. In one hour. Yeah, that's gotta suck.

    Anyway, regardless of whether or not Talos was a brutal conqueror (Wufharth most likely was and the Heresy even says he was), what matters is that these things were pretty much necessary for godhood to be achieved. The lives of the gods and the stories of their deaths are not pleasant things. There is no old man with a white beard and stick looking down on Nirn with benevolence. Rather, there are spirits who warred, killed and betrayed each other much like we do as humans today:

    "Shor breathed the lamplights of the Underworld to life with small whispers of fire. The dark did not frighten him-- he had been born in a cave much like this-- but nevertheless it added to the mounting disgust in his spirit. Ever since the Moot at the House of We, where the chieftains of the other tribes had accused him of trespass and cattle-theft and foul-mouthery, he knew it would come to a war we could not win. Any of those words were enough for the treason-mark, and traitors were only met with banishment, disfigurement, or half-death. He had taken the first with pride, roaring a chieftain's gobletman into dust to underscore his willingness to leave, knowing we would follow. He had taken the second by drawing a circle on the House's adamantine floor with his tailmouth-tusk which broke with a keening sound, showing the other chieftains that it would all come around again. And he took the third by vomiting his own heart into the circle like a hammerclap, guarding his wraith in the manner of his father and roaring at the other tribes, "Again we fight for our petty placements in this House, in the Around Us, and all it will amount to is a helix of ghosts like mine now spit into the world below where we fight again! I can already feel the war below us starting, and yet you have not yet thrown your first spears even here!" We took our leave of the House and would never reconvene again in this age...."

    So for Talos to mantle Lorkhan and reach heaven through violence is simply re-enacting all that which those we call the Aedra already did. Does it make him a villain? Probably from the elven point of view. But what did his people think?

    "And after the throne of Alinor did finally break at the feet of Men, and news of it came to the Dragon Emperor in Cyrodiil, he gathered his captains and spoke to them, saying:

    "'You have suffered for me to win this throne, and I see how you hate jungle. Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.'"

    Does what he did mean anything now?

    And Talos said to the Arctus, "Let us join as one to fortify this throne, this land, these people, each one glorious under heaven!"

    If Talos had not done what he did, had not mantled the Missing God and taken his place, there would be no Nirn for anyone to live on. Beware the Thalmor, they would undo the very Tower of Man if they could.


    This post was edited by Paws at January 7, 2017 4:06 AM EST
    • Moderator
    • 523 posts
    January 9, 2017 1:10 PM EST

    Phil said:

    Well, if you pray at a shrine of Talos you get a blessing. In TES IV there was a quest "Blood of the Divines" in which you needed the blood of a god to get to Mankar's Paradise. There really is no question on Talos' divinity - he ascended to godhood via the Fourth Walking way: Mantling, the steps of the dead. In this case by mantling Lorkhan who is also Shor.

    In TES there is this whole thing about threes. The Warrior, The Mage and The Witness. If we think of that three and apply it the the very highest super-gradient, Nir, Anu and Padomay, and then look at their story, we will see that echoed down the gradient ladder right to the mortal level. By re-enacting these stories which always involve violence and betrayal which is basically Lorkhan's story, Hjalti, Wulfharth and Zurin became an oversoul known as Talos. An oversoul is complicated business but it means that each is independant while still being one.

    The trouble with Talos is that we need to research the original sources. Indeed, the mindset is that the Numidium laid waste to the Summerset Isles and decimated the Altmer in spectacularly brutal fashion. Mainly that comes from this sentence:

    The conquest and assimilation of Summerset into the Empire is remembered by many a living Altmer with horror only partially diminished by time. Certainly, the pride of the people has never recovered.

    You can extrapolate all you want from that and imagine a nuclear bomb going off. Yet that does not make good science. Indeed, we can find another quote from an OOG source which says:

    Numidium's siege of Alinor:

    It's not the Brass God that wrecks everything so much as it is all the plane(t)s and timelines that orbit it, singing world-refusals.

    The Surrender of Alinor happened in one hour, but Numidium's siege lasted from the Mythic Era until long into the Fifth. Some Mirror Logicians of the Altmer fight it still in chrysalis shells that phase in and out of Tamrielic Prime, and their brethren know nothing of their purpose unless they stare too long and break their own possipoints.

    So what can we glean from that? Bloody conqueror or someone with a big-assed gun who didn't even really need to use it before the elves fell to their little golden knees like so many little golden pussies. In fact, we could probably spin the whole "Talos is mean" angle right back on the elves just by looking at this little quote:

    The formation of the Aldmeri Dominion in the Second Era is discussed in the section on Summerset’s ally, Valenwood. For Summerset, the kings of Colovia were no threat, but the Dominion allowed them to eliminate the Maormer outposts that had been established along the western coast of the mainland. Thus, the Dominion thrived until the coming of Tiber Septim.

    So the butthurt Aldmeri Dominion have both cause and motive to twist the facts as they see fit. Big mean Tiber came and wrecked their plan. In one hour. Yeah, that's gotta suck.

    Anyway, regardless of whether or not Talos was a brutal conqueror (Wufharth most likely was and the Heresy even says he was), what matters is that these things were pretty much necessary for godhood to be achieved. The lives of the gods and the stories of their deaths are not pleasant things. There is no old man with a white beard and stick looking down on Nirn with benevolence. Rather, there are spirits who warred, killed and betrayed each other much like we do as humans today:

    "Shor breathed the lamplights of the Underworld to life with small whispers of fire. The dark did not frighten him-- he had been born in a cave much like this-- but nevertheless it added to the mounting disgust in his spirit. Ever since the Moot at the House of We, where the chieftains of the other tribes had accused him of trespass and cattle-theft and foul-mouthery, he knew it would come to a war we could not win. Any of those words were enough for the treason-mark, and traitors were only met with banishment, disfigurement, or half-death. He had taken the first with pride, roaring a chieftain's gobletman into dust to underscore his willingness to leave, knowing we would follow. He had taken the second by drawing a circle on the House's adamantine floor with his tailmouth-tusk which broke with a keening sound, showing the other chieftains that it would all come around again. And he took the third by vomiting his own heart into the circle like a hammerclap, guarding his wraith in the manner of his father and roaring at the other tribes, "Again we fight for our petty placements in this House, in the Around Us, and all it will amount to is a helix of ghosts like mine now spit into the world below where we fight again! I can already feel the war below us starting, and yet you have not yet thrown your first spears even here!" We took our leave of the House and would never reconvene again in this age...."

    So for Talos to mantle Lorkhan and reach heaven through violence is simply re-enacting all that which those we call the Aedra already did. Does it make him a villain? Probably from the elven point of view. But what did his people think?

    "And after the throne of Alinor did finally break at the feet of Men, and news of it came to the Dragon Emperor in Cyrodiil, he gathered his captains and spoke to them, saying:

    "'You have suffered for me to win this throne, and I see how you hate jungle. Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.'"

    Does what he did mean anything now?

    And Talos said to the Arctus, "Let us join as one to fortify this throne, this land, these people, each one glorious under heaven!"

    If Talos had not done what he did, had not mantled the Missing God and taken his place, there would be no Nirn for anyone to live on. Beware the Thalmor, they would undo the very Tower of Man if they could.

    Loremaster has spoken, Talos is real. The Dominion are simply pissed that a man has become a divine and they want to reverse that via brainwashing. It baffles me how the Empire allowed the elves to outlaw Talos when the Great War ended in practically a draw. Hell, maybe if they had the balls to rip that White Gold Concordant to shreds, we wouldn't be discussing the Thalmor at all. 

    • 57 posts
    January 24, 2017 7:59 PM EST

    That's all really neat! I'm a very simpleminded person, however, and the fact that Talos, or an avatar of him, walks up and talks to you in Morrowind kind of makes me think that, yes, he's really a god. Legitimacy kind of doesn't matter when you're immortal, bestowing your blessings upon mortals, and people are worshipping you.

    • 36 posts
    February 20, 2017 9:03 PM EST

    I have seen no reason in-game not to believe that Talos is a true divine. As Phil already mentioned, you recieve a blessing from his shrine just like you do with the other Divines and even the Daedra (the shrines of the True Tribunal in the Dragonborn DLC), but we don't question the rest of the Divines' existence because their existance is widely accepted(in-game). As for the argument that he is a racist conqueror, I think this falls under the same argument as to whether or not the Nords are racist or if they are just like every other race in the Elder Scrolls series. For instance, Tiber Septim was you put it was human ethnocentric, the Thalmor are Mer-supremists, and the Ashlanders were also xenophobic. It seems every race thinks themselves the best or, at the very least, deserving of their own private land. When it comes down to it, the only reason people doubt the legitimacy of Talos is because he 'ascended' to godhood instead of being born into it.


    This post was edited by RuinedCrown at February 20, 2017 9:03 PM EST
  • Tom
    • 623 posts
    February 20, 2017 10:01 PM EST

    Vix was a known Thalmor-appologist, but no one is perfect.

     

    Phil also covered everything I would have said on the topic, and he called the Altmer "little golden pussies" while he did it, and now I want to have his babies.

    • 179 posts
    February 21, 2017 10:58 AM EST
    I see Talos more than a deity as a concept, a strong concept of the human will, I think Thalmor made Talos to be banned by the concept and is just an excuse Talos must be banned by heresy, Thalmor are so tight mind
    • 57 posts
    February 22, 2017 6:55 PM EST
    Medieval said: I see Talos more than a deity as a concept, a strong concept of the human will, I think Thalmor made Talos to be banned by the concept and is just an excuse Talos must be banned by heresy, Thalmor are so tight mind
    Well there was a couple of cultural things to go with the Altmer disliking a human god. First, the elves, or Mer, consider themselves to be descended from the Aedra, the beings who sacrificed much of their power in order to breathe life into Nirn. 'Aedra' is actually an elvish word which means something like 'Our Ancestors'. Imbedded into Altmer culture is the belief that they are the children of fallen gods, and that they can re-ascend, as Auri-El did according to history, and rejoin the Aedric Pantheon. To such a culture, a member of the man-races ascending to godhood could seem as blasphemous as if, say, somebody were to claim that Harambe ascended to godhood for his heroism and mercy (r.i.p. Harambe. Never forget).

    This isn't to say all Altmer are rigorous followers of Thalmor doctrine. Just as, in the real world, we have a history of religious extremists establishing nations and empires (Including the Holy Roman Empire), the Thalmor exaggerate many of Altmer culture's worst aspects in order to make an excuse for bigotry and warfare. While Talos ascending to godhood may stick in their throats, their real reason for going to war was to conquer and expand.
    • 50 posts
    February 22, 2017 7:30 PM EST
    Mercurias said:
    Medieval said: I see Talos more than a deity as a concept, a strong concept of the human will, I think Thalmor made Talos to be banned by the concept and is just an excuse Talos must be banned by heresy, Thalmor are so tight mind
    Well there was a couple of cultural things to go with the Altmer disliking a human god. First, the elves, or Mer, consider themselves to be descended from the Aedra, the beings who sacrificed much of their power in order to breathe life into Nirn. 'Aedra' is actually an elvish word which means something like 'Our Ancestors'. Imbedded into Altmer culture is the belief that they are the children of fallen gods, and that they can re-ascend, as Auri-El did according to history, and rejoin the Aedric Pantheon. To such a culture, a member of the man-races ascending to godhood could seem as blasphemous as if, say, somebody were to claim that Harambe ascended to godhood for his heroism and mercy (r.i.p. Harambe. Never forget).

    This isn't to say all Altmer are rigorous followers of Thalmor doctrine. Just as, in the real world, we have a history of religious extremists establishing nations and empires (Including the Holy Roman Empire), the Thalmor exaggerate many of Altmer culture's worst aspects in order to make an excuse for bigotry and warfare. While Talos ascending to godhood may stick in their throats, their real reason for going to war was to conquer and expand.
    The Holy Roman Empire wasn't really a product of religious extremism. In fact it was only a Roman Empire in name. In reality, it was being run mostly by Germanic peoples. In any case, I get your point about the Thalmor, although I don't believe they only used Talos not being a god as an excuse to start a war. I think they really do believe that he never ascended to godhood.
    • 373 posts
    February 22, 2017 8:54 PM EST
    The real gods are the Daedra; the Aedra are basically Jungian archetypes, with little to no power on Nirn. Talos was real, but as an Aedra, he is basically dead.

    The Nords have followed this conquerer so deeply that they forgot their own religion, culture, and history. In my eyes, Talos is the same as Trinimac; he should be respected as a deity, but not the center of worship (excluding, maybe, the Orcs). That said, it would be better if Talos worship just ceased to happen. At least Trinimac is considered an ancestor; Talos is just 1-3 people who probably have no blood relation with anybody and is therefore: nobody's god.
    • 36 posts
    February 22, 2017 9:46 PM EST

    Gollum said: The real gods are the Daedra; the Aedra are basically Jungian archetypes, with little to no power on Nirn. Talos was real, but as an Aedra, he is basically dead. The Nords have followed this conquerer so deeply that they forgot their own religion, culture, and history. In my eyes, Talos is the same as Trinimac; he should be respected as a deity, but not the center of worship (excluding, maybe, the Orcs). That said, it would be better if Talos worship just ceased to happen. At least Trinimac is considered an ancestor; Talos is just 1-3 people who probably have no blood relation with anybody and is therefore: nobody's god.

    So you must take an active part in the world to be considered a god? Isn't a god just a being with supernatural powers that is sometimes said to have created the world? Most of the Nine are more kin unto gods of different aspects of humanity (as are the Daedra, though they tend to represent the negatives) rather than the traditional mythological gods (such as Zeus). For instance, Stendarr is the personifaction of mercy and righteousness. Talos is the personification of war. Mara is love, Dibella is Beauty. Mephala is deceit, Molag Bal is dominance. Now there are outliers (i.e. Akatosh), that seem to have a specific power or realm of power. 

    Since when did blood matter? Talos spilled a lot of it. How does Trinimac being an ancestor of anyone allocate him a place in godhood? The Nords view Talos as one of the Last Atmorans. Now this view is obviously misguided as he was actually three different people that lived three different lives but became...fused..somehow..or something like that...Regardless how misguided this view is there is no denying that he has achieved god-hood (for the reasons I mentioned in my first post). 

    This whole debate is based on whether you fall closer to the mer or man way of thinking. With mer, ancestry is EVERYTHING. With man, your exploits mean more. You can start as a slave, but if you beat the dragon, your origins don't mean much. Mer vs. Man. Like it has been since Ysgramor came from Atmora to find and settle new lands.

    • 373 posts
    February 22, 2017 10:48 PM EST
    Yes, to be considered a god, one would need power to back it up. The Aedra are Jungian archetypes, nothing more, to the common Tamrielan. A principle or trait to base oneself around. Maybe the Aedra did have great power once, but how would ANYBODY on Nirn know? To the Tamrielan, the power lies with the Daedra.

    So to be a god in ES universe, one would have to have created the world, according to you. Talos didn't create Nirn, so you don't consider him a god, either?

    It's not about mer vs. man, it's about our own interpretation.

    You pretty much agreed with everything else I said, even though you think you are countering what I said.
  • Tom
    • 623 posts
    February 22, 2017 11:57 PM EST

    Gollum said: The real gods are the Daedra; the Aedra are basically Jungian archetypes, with little to no power on Nirn. Talos was real, but as an Aedra, he is basically dead. The Nords have followed this conquerer so deeply that they forgot their own religion, culture, and history. In my eyes, Talos is the same as Trinimac; he should be respected as a deity, but not the center of worship (excluding, maybe, the Orcs). That said, it would be better if Talos worship just ceased to happen. At least Trinimac is considered an ancestor; Talos is just 1-3 people who probably have no blood relation with anybody and is therefore: nobody's god.

    Everything's a bloody Jungian Archetype in the Elder Scrolls. One subset is just all too happy to wave their literal and metaphorical dicks in your face, another subset just doesn't give a shit to bother, and we're walking on the rest.

    Talos hasn't caused the Nords to lose their traditional religion. The damn Imperial missionaries have done that. Talos is literally the most Nordic deity there is. He's the most important one in fact. Talos is Shor's heir. 1/3 of Talos is Ysmir and 1/3 of him is Shezarrine which is Shor's spirit. Talos is the combination of Akatosh, Lorkhan, and Man. That's what pisses the elves off.

    Trinimac is some elven punk who went emo after he got some learning from Boethiah on what Lorkhan was really about. You'd have to be daft to think Trinimac was the literal ancestor of elvendom. Elves have been caught in a circle jerk of their own superiority since Convention, and entirely leave out the fact that they come from the same stock as man.

    Talos is about man taking the heavens by the nuts and telling the elves to get wrecked. Elves have committed the worst crimes imaginable on mankind since the beginning as part of their existential temper tantrum. This upstart named Talos kicked their asses physically and metaphysically, showing mankind that Shor isn't forgotten and the plight of humanity isn't going away that easily.

    • 373 posts
    February 23, 2017 6:36 PM EST

    doublepost


    This post was edited by John Goblikon at February 23, 2017 6:51 PM EST
    • 373 posts
    February 23, 2017 6:36 PM EST
    0 Nords understand anything you just wrote. My point is that they worship Talos with blind faith, or just worship the archetype you described as the "Neverquitter" Elf Destroyer. They didn't even believe in their own gods or history before Alduin came back in Skyrim: "dragons are fairy tales". So you're telling me the Elves with their superior brain power understand the Nord's history and religion more than the Nords themselves?

    No, I don't believe that Trinimac is the ancestor of elvendom. Unless I'm mistaken, he was worshipped because he was an ancestor of the upper class elves and was an inspiring and strong warrior. I thought the Aldmer worshipped ancestors?