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Decision Time: Ning or SocialEngine

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  • Tom
    • 624 posts
    September 26, 2016 4:46 PM EDT

    While I find this new site an utter pain to navigate, the investment into Social engine and Ning's price makes this a rather simple answer; stay. I haven't been active because I find the new site an utter headache to navigate. I like some of the new features when it comes to text replies and quotes, but if the manner of how information is displayed for posts and options for jumping to the last reply were avaliale, most of my complaints would be remedied.

    • 558 posts
    September 26, 2016 6:21 PM EDT

    It seems to me like Ning isn't a real option. I easily prefer it, but I feel like the risk outweighs the reward here. I tried to get into this site, but I just couldn't. Hopefully this site will grow into something better than what we had with Ning. :)

    I'm curious to see what Skyrim remastered will do to this site in terms of activity.

    • 224 posts
    September 26, 2016 6:58 PM EDT

    I don't know if anyone brought this up, but if you were to switch to Ning and use ads to offset the cost, wouldn't more people use Adblock thus not helping the situation any further?

    • 140 posts
    September 27, 2016 5:41 AM EDT

    So the way I see it now, the two main problems with going back to Ning is the cost and chance of it suddenly being non-existent. Here's my thoughts on those subjects:

    Cost

    I really don't see this as being a huge issue, even without ads. We've always done well on Site fundraisers, and I don't see why we won't again. The price is much higher, but I'm positive we'll find a way to make it work. Ads aside, we could keep that Donation button there the whole time, and just "promote it more" when more funds are needed. Or maybe, God forbid, we could go without the annual giveaway for a bit.

    Those are just two things I've thought up while typing this paragraph. I'm sure there's many more ways to help with the cost, if we all put our heads together.

    Ning suddenly imploding

    This is probably the biggest concern, but I'd like to remind everyone that it's only a possibilty, not something that will definitely happen. And even if Cyndx does drop Ning, I find it a bit more likely that they'd hand it over to someone else instead. Now admittedly websites and online bank-dealing broker things aren't my specialty, but to me it's just common sense to give something (In this case Ning) away to someone else rather than just leaving it for dead.

    This is more of a shot in the dark, but doesn't Cyndx have an Email adress, or perhaps another way to contact them? If so, perhaps Todd (As the owner on a Ning site) could get in touch with them, and see what their intentions are for Ning? Like I said, it's a shot in the dark, but I still think it's worth a try.

     

    Apart from all that, it seems most people who dislike SocialEngine don't want to go back to Ning due to either the the (Sunken cost) money already spent on SocialEngine, or that it'll be a hassle to move back to Ning. I believe the money was already taken off the table, and moving back to Ning is probably very simple (Change Ning's url back to TamrielVault.com, and SocialEngine's into TheSkyrimBlog.com, or something to that effect). The only content we'll lose by moving back is everything posted after the move, e.i. the last month.

    In any case, just don't expect the same kind of activity Ning had if we stay here. I think SocialEngine's horrible navigation has been down-played a bit, but I'd definitely put it as the culprit for the decreased activity. Even if we still get an above average number of views per session, the actual amount of contribution (For lack of a better word) has been on the decline as of late, and I think that's a very valid concern.

    • 641 posts
    September 27, 2016 6:28 AM EDT

    Everybody keeps complaining about the navigation. Somebody needs to explain to me what they actually mean by that and why it's bad?

    • 64 posts
    September 27, 2016 6:52 AM EDT

    I'll admit that I miss the comfort that I had gotten used to with ning, but I have no doubts that it will come with time. However, for me the biggest plus about Social Engine is that the layout and interface is ten times more sexy; I really love the way it looks and feels and I think the Social Engine has alot more to offer than the outdated ning engine. Another plus for me is the CSS: Yes its difficult to learn! But once yo get the hang of it, it has alot more to offer in terms of personal edeting and so on. We'll have to make a load of guides though, so newcomers will have an easier time learning how it all works. All in all I'm pretty happy about the transfer and I'm looking forward to the evolution of our beloved TamrielVault... can't bloody wait for TES 6 when it comes out in twenty years :D  

    • 312 posts
    September 27, 2016 8:25 AM EDT

    Veloth the Vampire-Hunter said:

    Everybody keeps complaining about the navigation. Somebody needs to explain to me what they actually mean by that and why it's bad?

    Honestly, I haven't noticed any major issues navigating the site, but I only use, maybe, 5% of what's actually here, so... >.>

    • 140 posts
    September 27, 2016 8:40 AM EDT

    Veloth the Vampire-Hunter said:

    Everybody keeps complaining about the navigation. Somebody needs to explain to me what they actually mean by that and why it's bad?

    I can't speak for the others, but for me it's mostly because of these reasons:

    • To get to groups you have to go to the Groups tab, scroll down to find the group you want, and possibly go to the next page if you want Art, the Story Corner, CB or Lore (Some of which could be described as the most popular on the Site). On Ning, however, you simply had to go to the dropdown list to find a group; Quick and simple.
    • Photos and Videos used to be on the side, and showed the most recently uploaded ones. Now they're near the top, and this might just be me, but I find it to be much more eye-catching if you can actually see the newest ones.
    • To get to the last reply on a discussion, you have to click on the last page of said discussion (Sometimes having to go through only 5 pages a time, which is a bit of a hassle for the longer discussions), as opposed to Ning's "last reply" option. Even typing this reply right now, I have to be in another window, as opposed to Ning's more "streamlined" reply system.

    It might not sound like a lot, but it's certainly not as easy as on Ning, and all the added clicking just to find a dicussion can become very tedious. Site's like this are supposed to be easy to navigate, but as it is now I can definitely see it detering some members from being as active (I know, because I'm one of them). You could say that the Search Bar helps, but as has been said before, unless you know exactly what you're searching for, it's not much help.


    This post was edited by Caesar at September 27, 2016 8:42 AM EDT
    • 215 posts
    September 27, 2016 8:59 AM EDT

    Veloth the Vampire-Hunter said:

    Everybody keeps complaining about the navigation. Somebody needs to explain to me what they actually mean by that and why it's bad?

    For me it's a few things:

    1. As noted elsewhere...finding specific groups.

    2. When I click on a thread from the main page (top topics) it goes to either the general group and then I have to actually find the thread I was hoping to read about (or) it goes to a thread but then I am on "page 1" and then have to click 20 times to advance to page 21 to get to the most recent comment that I was clicking on.  For Ning, it went straight to the comment you were clicking on from the main page.

    3. When I get a notification or PM and it shows up (the top right portion of the screen), same thing...Instead of clicking on my PM or notification and going directly to that comment I then have to do additional clicking and manuevering to actually find (when I can) the post that I was notified about.  THen, even though I have clicked on the notification I still have to click "Mark as Read" for the number notification popup to disappear...and sometimes it still comes back and I have to clear it multiple times.  Annoying.

    So in a nutshell, basically that nothing is direct anymore it requires several layers of clicking and searching and sometimes you still can't find what it is you were clicking on originally. 

    • 641 posts
    September 27, 2016 9:15 AM EDT

    Wait do your notification not take you straight to the post? Mine do.

    • 136 posts
    September 27, 2016 9:26 AM EDT

    Veloth the Vampire-Hunter said:

    Wait do your notification not take you straight to the post? Mine do.

    Mine do. I just click the blue hyperlinked word, "posted." Takes me right there.

    • 743 posts
    September 27, 2016 10:40 AM EDT

    Patriarch said:

    Veloth the Vampire-Hunter said:

    Wait do your notification not take you straight to the post? Mine do.

    Mine do. I just click the blue hyperlinked word, "posted." Takes me right there.

    That's the fastest way to navigate the new site. I honestly don't mind it.

    • 113 posts
    September 28, 2016 1:22 AM EDT
    The omly problem I have with this site is I can't freaking zoom out on phone. Scrolling over and over again is utterly annoying.
    • 77 posts
    September 28, 2016 1:29 AM EDT

    Sindeed said: The omly problem I have with this site is I can't freaking zoom out on phone. Scrolling over and over again is utterly annoying.

    Could be a variety of things :-/ browser or site, if I'm on mobile I always use the full desktop version and have no problems with zooming or replying to things, I could do the same on the old site but it was more grumpy about what it would let me do

  • September 28, 2016 2:52 AM EDT

    Hello folks, I have been away for 2 days, familly funeral, and missed the opportunity to post here, Ning is dead, SE was a little difficult to navigate at first, and there are still problems with pictures (there arnt any) which really buggered up CB, our largest group and, it has to be said the largest draw for new members, Importantly though, Mason, one of the CB greats has already stated he wouldnt want to post anything here, how many others feel the same? my own experience when coming here for the first time was to access the builds created by Ponty, Mason, Noodles and many more I have played all their builds from start to finish, to loose such talent is a real shame, as is the lack of pictures on Skyrim CB, is this going to detract folks from accessing same?. Possibly

    I suspect a return to Ning would see the end of our site, sure we could get our pictures back but,  the company that has taken over it are Vultures to say the least, a Merchant Bank doing whats best for others dont make me laugh. they will tart it up flog it, make a profit, and wash their hands.

    Yes I helped in a small way with the new site, and I would do it again should the need arise, regardless of what platform we exist on, whats important here is whats best for the site LONG term, and I think we all know its not Ning, is it SE?  only time will tell, lets be patient, and  get to really know the new site, if in the future it becomes clear that SE cannot offer  us the service we require, then another platform may but it is not Ning, my with some reservation is to stay put here.

     


    This post was edited by Deleted Member at September 28, 2016 5:54 AM EDT
    • 140 posts
    September 28, 2016 6:33 AM EDT

    Long term, SocialEngine could get better. But short term (e.i. Now) we are losing members because of the new platform, and really, what is a social site without active members? The worst part is, with another site (You know, the one that's represented by a series of stars) dedicated to the exact same things as we are, there's an easy alternative for members to go to. Hell, even I'm thinking of it.

    Everyone always says that we should be patient, that SocialEngine will get better. But how long should we be patient for? In a year from now, when we've lost almost all our members to other sites like **** *******, then will all the problems with SocialEngine be fixed?

    Right now, this is how I see things: Long term, SocialEngine might be better, asuming that we don't lose most of our members in the short term. The Skyrim 2016 Cash-Grab get's released in a month from now; Everyone says we'll get a flurry of new members and activity when it's out, but what if people are just too fed-up with this platform by then?

    Both Mason and Tom (And myself, I'm sure there are others as well) have said they won't be as active anymore due to this Platform. That's two long-time members gone right there.

    In closing, there's a chance that Ning will cease, just as there's a chance that SocialEngine will get better. But in the mean time, long-time members are leaving. So let's take a leap of faith and go back, not to what we know or prefer, but to what will keep people active.


    This post was edited by Deleted Member at September 28, 2016 8:16 AM EDT
    • 739 posts
    September 28, 2016 6:41 AM EDT

    Bonelord said:

     Importantly though, Mason, one of the CB greats has already stated he wouldnt want to post anything here, how many others feel the same?

     

    To be fair, I'm not an active member here these days anyway, regardless of the platform...

    Aside from the issue with artwork going missing, the way builds are currently organized/displayed and navigated to is pretty demoralizing. For a member wanting to create a build, knowing that posts are going to be recognized and read by others is really important and serves as a greater incentive to create NEW content...

    As it stands, it looks like the admin team are all hard at work resolving all these issues from the back of the website and successfully fixing things up...

    ...but as someone who hasn't been around for months but chose to lurk here for the past week or so this really wasn't obvious to me. No front page posts talking about the issues being fixed/addressed to give reassurance to the members...

    It looked like you guys had just given up...

    ...when in reality you hadn't.

    It's just that old transparancy issue rearing its head again. It's never really obvious what's going on around here.

     


    This post was edited by Mason at September 28, 2016 6:47 AM EDT
  • September 28, 2016 7:52 AM EDT

    Caesar you have never been a fan of SE right from the word go, you comments speak for themselves, however I do share your concern, I truly believe the site move was a for the better, but what troubles me is that the majority of members who voiced their hatred for Ning are no longer active, there is also the issue, you quite rightly stated with regard to the new site started by others, are we really loosing so many members? and if so is the current platform to blame or is the attraction of a different or alternative site to blame for this, and Caesar leaps of faith can be taken in both directions.

    I think Mason has an excellent point above where he states, quite rightly "

    ...but as someone who hasn't been around for months but chose to lurk here for the past week or so this really wasn't obvious to me. No front page posts talking about the issues being fixed/addressed to give reassurance to the members...

    It looked like you guys had just given up...

    ...when in reality you hadn't.

    It's just that old transparancy issue rearing its head again. It's never really obvious what's going on around here.

    I just hope that the death knell hasnt been sounded, that would be a real shame, but with CB no longer the attraction it was, and as much as it pains me to say it I really, at present fear for the future.


    This post was edited by Deleted Member at September 28, 2016 8:17 AM EDT
    • 694 posts
    September 28, 2016 8:57 AM EDT

    Mason said:

    As it stands, it looks like the admin team are all hard at work resolving all these issues from the back of the website and successfully fixing things up...

    ...but as someone who hasn't been around for months but chose to lurk here for the past week or so this really wasn't obvious to me. No front page posts talking about the issues being fixed/addressed to give reassurance to the members...

    It looked like you guys had just given up...

    ...when in reality you hadn't.

    It's just that old transparancy issue rearing its head again. It's never really obvious what's going on around here.

    A fair point, Mason. We can try to be more diligent about letting the community know what we're working on, what we're fixing. It's just hard to grapple with something for hours and days only to then have to write up a post about it for the community explaining everything we did and answering questions about it, when the time it takes to do that is more time we could spend working on resolving the actual issues. Since we can't make more hours in the day it just seems lower priority, but that's a valid point and I'll talk with the other admins about setting up a notice thread.

     

    Overall I agree that the timing with Remastered around the corner is definitely less than ideal. But we can't help the timing of Ning's implosion. That is 100% out of our hands. We've been keeping an eye on the rapidly deteriorating situation since this winter, and now things look more dire than ever. Let's be real here folks, Cyndx could liquidate Ning the day before Remastered is released. Sure it's likely it wouldn't happen that quickly, but a month after it's released? Two months after? All very real, very scary possibilities.

    Yes, we might lose some impatient members who can't possibly bear to have a site looking exactly as they'd like immediately. And that's unfortunate. But if the choice is almost certain death on Ning rather than just sticking it out while we get these modules together and work out the kinks... I know what I'd pick any day. Like Phil said, the issues we're looking at are all things that can be fixed pending time and small gradual investments. So far every issue we've started tackling has been resolved. We just can't get to them all immediately.


    This post was edited by Edana at September 28, 2016 9:04 AM EDT
    • 136 posts
    September 28, 2016 10:02 AM EDT

    Bonelord said:

    they will tart it up flog it, make a profit, and wash their hands.

    Oddly enough, investment banking was not the first thing that came to mind when I read this. Buuut, point taken. 

     

    Okay, seriously now, I'm back on topic...

     

     

    • 739 posts
    September 28, 2016 11:07 AM EDT

    Edana said:

    Yes, we might lose some impatient members who can't possibly bear to have a site looking exactly as they'd like immediately. And that's unfortunate. But if the choice is almost certain death on Ning rather than just sticking it out while we get these modules together and work out the kinks... I know what I'd pick any day. Like Phil said, the issues we're looking at are all things that can be fixed pending time and small gradual investments. So far every issue we've started tackling has been resolved. We just can't get to them all immediately.

    You definitely don't have to sell the benefit of staying with SE to me anymore, I'm now all caught up with the position that Ning has put you guys in...

    I really don't think there's any reason to lose impatient members over this, maybe they wouldn't be so impatient if they actually knew what was going on around here and the challenges you guys are facing?

    I know a main page post takes up some time but it still remains the primary way of keeping in touch with all the members....and the members are who you're doing all this hard work for at the end of the day.

    When communication breaks down you build a rod for your own back. You get members like myself needlessly worrying about content and the future of the site and making posts that just spread fear and uncertainty...

    ...meanwhile you guys are all working hard trying to fix things and (clearly) feeling frustrated and underappreciated.

    It can all be avoided.

    • 743 posts
    September 28, 2016 11:46 AM EDT

    The majority of you are taking the piss. We have a rival site that has the EXACT same content as us. As Caesar stated, we cannot afford to lose more members. However, moving back to Ning is a game of Russian Roulette, with 5 bullets in the six-shooter. We've got to stay here and keep working to build this site to be as popular as the Ning version. Skyrim Rm, I suspect, will draw at least 100 members in the first two weeks of release. Surely that will earn a few active members.

    As for the old members that no longer want to be active on this site, I daresay you are part of the problem. Why in the hell do you people want to stop now when we need loyal members the most? Because of a freaking learning curve that takes 15 minutes tops to learn? Hell, I was one of those that thought we should go back to Ning because of the new site's navigation, until I actually spent the time to learn the damned thing. Newsflash: it didn't take long. 

    We need to pull up our bootstraps and take the time to get used to site if we're to survive, not complain about taking a step back. And if we don't do it, the rival site will do it for us.

    • 557 posts
    September 28, 2016 12:31 PM EDT

    Well said, Rogue. As we speak I am in the process of adding in a new video plugin so that we can have a decent way to see the videos many of you work hard to create. Soon we will be adding a new photos plugin so that we can do the same for all of your pictures, and we're also looking into ways to add a drop-down navigation feature. 

    A lot is going on behind the scenes, there just isn't a decent way for us to show that. 

    • 743 posts
    September 28, 2016 12:42 PM EDT

    Todd said:

    Well said, Rogue. As we speak I am in the process of adding in a new video plugin so that we can have a decent way to see the videos many of you work hard to create. Soon we will be adding a new photos plugin so that we can do the same for all of your pictures, and we're also looking into ways to add a drop-down navigation feature. 

    A lot is going on behind the scenes, there just isn't a decent way for us to show that. 

    Thank you, Todd. The Vault community needs to actually support the guys who are working behind the scenes. This is coming from the guy who hated a lot of what was being presented to the Vault a few months back. I'm looking forward to seeing this site improve.

  • September 28, 2016 1:03 PM EDT

    @Todd Perhaps the time has come for phil or Edana or even myself to post dailly or weekly updates on whats going on behind the scenes, a quick PM to myself would see me make regular behind scene updates