Forums » Elder Scrolls

Michael Kirkbride's Current Works and Their Canonicity

    • 3 posts
    September 20, 2016 8:29 PM EDT

    Hello all!

     This is a question I've asked on the Bethesda Software Forums, the Elder Scrolls Wikia Forums and the Wiki app Discussions. I got different answers in each community and I'm interested to see what y'all think.

     What is your opinion on the canonicity of Kirkbride's out of game works? Not their contribution to the series, not Kirkbride's prominence/importance/intelligence, just what you think insofar as the truth of the universe goes.

    • 649 posts
    September 21, 2016 1:18 AM EDT

    We usually hold it in high esteem here. If Kikrbride says something, we mull over it, usually with loud "huh" and then try to go with it. Most of his works break the mystery of TES, yeah, but most of the people here are ok with MK. 

    • 1467 posts
    September 21, 2016 3:29 AM EDT

    I take it as a case by case kind of thing, some of his work (not that I've read all of it, usually just what Phil links to me) is really quite interesting, and I view it as canonical as anything else I've read in TES.

    That poses an interesting question though. What is canon? To me, the way TES has been set up is so similar to real life that there can't really be a canon, everything we know (or at least I know) is subject to a fair amount of debate, we might never know what exactly caused the Chimer or Orsimer to change, there are of course stories we're told but very few are told as definite history, as far as I know there are very few things that the developers tell us "This is how it happened" look at Morrowind, technically there are no limits in Morrowind, everything or nothing can happen, and that's what ES Lore is to me.

    Gotta be deep (ish) and philosophical here don't I :P Basically I think that if what Kirkbride tells me makes some sense to me (or proves my point in a debate :P) I'm going to take it as canon until I read something that disputes that and convinces me that the new path is the correct one.  

    • 649 posts
    September 21, 2016 4:00 AM EDT
    It is worth mentioning that we are not site solely focused on Lore. Most of the people here arw ignorant to it until they need it for a build, and most of them isn't interested in deep and complicated stuff like CHIM, Towers and other things like that. The Loremasters here usually take MK's word for granted, regular people don't care much about him.
    • 312 posts
    September 21, 2016 4:04 AM EDT

    Karver said: It is worth mentioning that we are not site solely focused on Lore. Most of the people here arw ignorant to it until they need it for a build, and most of them isn't interested in deep and complicated stuff like CHIM, Towers and other things like that. The Loremasters here usually take MK's word for granted, regular people don't care much about him.

    *waves sheepishly* That would be me. >.>

    • 649 posts
    September 21, 2016 4:31 AM EDT
    WuYiXiang said:

    Karver said: It is worth mentioning that we are not site solely focused on Lore. Most of the people here arw ignorant to it until they need it for a build, and most of them isn't interested in deep and complicated stuff like CHIM, Towers and other things like that. The Loremasters here usually take MK's word for granted, regular people don't care much about him.

    *waves sheepishly* That would be me. >.>

    Shush, sheep! :D
    • 321 posts
    September 21, 2016 5:45 AM EDT

    Karver said:Most of the people here arw ignorant to it until they need it for a build, and most of them isn't interested in deep and complicated stuff like CHIM, Towers and other things like that. The Loremasters here usually take MK's word for granted, regular people don't care much about him.
    Well I wouldn't call myself uninterested in MK's works. Admittingly, I did visit his site to see his weird yet amazing artworks and also to understand a small grasp of what CHIM is. But honestly, it left me as confused as I was fascinated.

    To this day, I still don't know where the whole 'Pelinal time-travel' thing came from.

    • 295 posts
    September 21, 2016 6:16 AM EDT

    I look at Kirkbride's stuff for the underlying themes of Straag Rod, but I take what I want from it. So, no, no 9th or 11th Era battling cows in Straag. I know, I'm very sorry. *hangs head in shame*

    • 641 posts
    September 21, 2016 6:25 AM EDT

    Everything is in canon. Or if you prefer there is no such thing as canon.

    • 312 posts
    September 21, 2016 7:06 AM EDT

    Veloth The Prophet said:

    Everything is in canon. Or if you prefer there is no such thing as canon.

    Can we take all the canon and fire them out of cannons?

    • 136 posts
    September 21, 2016 9:57 AM EDT

    I like MK's work because it's thought provoking and challenges my pre-conceived ideas of the TES universe. IMO, most people don't read MK's work as he intends them to be read. He writes in extreme allegory. For example, I don't think MK intended for people to take his time-traveling robot story as literally as everyone did. He's a story-teller. Story-tellers don't explicitly lay out facts for people, at least not the good ones. He's not writing a manual. Story-tellers communicate truth or advocate for a cause by creating imagery that captivates the reader's imagination. MK's writing is designed to do just that. Compound his particular writing style with the ambiguity of TES lore and we have the makings for some very strange, yet captivating stories.  MK is a very strange writer, but I like that.

    Hist ships, talOS drives, etc. = I believe that all of these are allegorical images--metaphors, if you will, of TES metaphysics. 


    This post was edited by The_Lex at September 21, 2016 9:59 AM EDT
    • 641 posts
    September 21, 2016 11:58 AM EDT

    WuYiXiang said:

    Veloth The Prophet said:

    Everything is in canon. Or if you prefer there is no such thing as canon.

    Can we take all the canon and fire them out of cannons?

    Only if we place them on our heads first!

    • 1595 posts
    September 21, 2016 5:36 PM EDT

    Patriarch said:

    I like MK's work because it's thought provoking and challenges my pre-conceived ideas of the TES universe. IMO, most people don't read MK's work as he intends them to be read. He writes in extreme allegory. For example, I don't think MK intended for people to take his time-traveling robot story as literally as everyone did. He's a story-teller. Story-tellers don't explicitly lay out facts for people, at least not the good ones. He's not writing a manual. Story-tellers communicate truth or advocate for a cause by creating imagery that captivates the reader's imagination. MK's writing is designed to do just that. Compound his particular writing style with the ambiguity of TES lore and we have the makings for some very strange, yet captivating stories.  MK is a very strange writer, but I like that.

    Hist ships, talOS drives, etc. = I believe that all of these are allegorical images--metaphors, if you will, of TES metaphysics. 

    Nailed.

    • 9 posts
    September 23, 2016 5:43 AM EDT

    Nobody reads image descriptions.Hello Vault Dwellers, it's Todd here with an announcement that I'm sure you'll all enjoy! 

    As I'm sure you all have heard, a remastered version of Skyrim will be released in just a few short weeks. This game is very special to all of us here, as it is what inspired this site's creation and is what brought all of us together. To commemorate the remaster of one of our favorite games, I've decided to hold a little giveaway for all of you to participate in! There are a few requirements that need to be met in order for you to qualify for the giveaway, so let's dive right into them!

    • ~ You must be a registered member of TamrielVault. 
    • ~ You must post at least one topic in at least one of our many groups between today (Sept. 11) and the giveaway's end date (Sept. 30 at midnight EST). 
    • ~ You need to "like" this topic (there is a little button at the top of the page, scroll up and you'll see it!). 
    • ~ Are you a Host of one of our groups? If you are, then you're automatically entered to win!

    If you've done all of those things then you'll automatically be entered for a chance to win one of three digital copies of Skyrim Remastered! If you have any questions about the giveaway then please feel free to ask them in the comments below! I look forward to seeing some of the discussions that you'll be posting, and I can't wait to see the amazing content that our winners will be creating after getting their hands on the enhanced version of one of our favorite games! :) 

     

    Nobody reads image descriptions.

    Thank you all for reading, and good luck to you! 

     

    Kindest regards,

    Todd


    This post was edited by James at September 23, 2016 5:45 AM EDT
    • 12 posts
    November 17, 2016 10:00 AM EST

    The way I see it, Kirkbridian lore is basically the "Legends" of TESLore. For those familiar with Star Wars will know what I mean. 

    Or if you want another alegory, the "MLP Comic Canon" of TESlore. 

    No, it's not really "canon" per se as none of his more "advanced" stuff is actually in the game in any form (IE Landfall, C0DA, Histships, time traveling robots, etc).

    One thing I notice from these anti-canon people is the inability to seperate "canon" from "truth"/"fact". They are not synonomus. TES Canon, by the creators own admission, is very much opinion based. This is in contrast to Fallout lore which is very much fact-based.

    Canon is simply what appears in-game as ingame events, or is written in books or spoken is dialogue (but even then, only in the sense that these books and dialogue exist. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not a statement of fact. In game main quest events aside, of course.

    Example: The Lusty Argonian Maid is canon, because there is a book in the games called "The Lusty Argonian Maid". Whether or not there actually was an Argonian Maid that did lewd things with her lord polished spears and baked bread is where canon ends and opinion begins.

    The Towers. This is arguably canon. There is a book that explicitly mentions towers (Book of the Dragonborn). The existance of this book is canon. The words written in them are canon. The fact that there is at least one author that refers to them as "towers" is canon. What is not canon however is their effects. It merely mentions them, it doesn't mention what they do or mention any thalmor plot to destroy them or any way to "shut them off" or whatnot, nor does anything else. All of that is out of game lore, which isn't anywhere in any of the games in any form and therefore is not canon.

    The same can be said of the "Lessons of Vivec" series. These books are canon, meaning they exist in the world. In morrowind, you can buy or go to certain places and read them. However, the fact that these books are canon doesn't mean they're true. Just because you can find and read these books in game doesn't mean Vivec actually built a house out of Poetry or got married to molag bal. 

    Then there's the other stuff. Landfall, c0da, 5th era loveletter, etc. These are explicitly not canon. They do not appear anywhere. They are not refered to by anyone or anything. The events they describe do not occur in the game(for obvious reasons). There is no reason to assume they're canon (much less true), and more importantly don't have any real place in serious lore discussions.

    (Rant)

    This is why I think the people here and on /r/teslore who want to "end canon" or say that "there is no canon" really have no idea what they're even talking about. Canon is not a big scary boogyman that wants to tell you that you can't have a certain opinion or how to write your fanfiction. If anything it allows more freedom by removing the kirkbridian elements that would take the mystery of TES away and introduce all sorts of unrelated strange nonsense. Canon simply tells you what items exist in universe and what doesn't, not what opinion or interpretation to form about them.

    Otherwise from what I've seen, it pretty much just becomes "Kirkbride's fan club", and I tend to notice that a lot of these places tend to develop a "totally-not-canon canon" of their own around this and tends to pass it off as the absolute, 100% truth on forums and fansites. For example, the thalmor and their goals are hotly contested and controversial. Any time someone tries to have even a slightly positive spin on the Altmer much less the thalmor, the first thing you usually get is someone saying "but teh thalmoarz want 2 destroyeez teh wurld cuz teh kurkbried sed so lawl towers lawl c0da". And if you disagree with them, then you're a filthy causual who doesn't know elder scrolls lore. Ironically, I find that these are often the same people who often are the first to spout "there is no canon cause c0da". You really have to read between the lines with this whole "no canon" thing. From what I've seen of them, they don't really want to get rid of canon, they want kirkbridian canon to be the canon unquestioned by default.

    Seriously, /r/teslore has gotten so bad with this that it might as well just be called /r/testowersandchim, since that's all they ever talk about over there. 

    (/Rant)


    This post was edited by Rylasasin at November 18, 2016 6:54 AM EST
    • 312 posts
    November 17, 2016 10:09 AM EST

    I... no. Canon is a lot more than what you argue for. Take Star Wars EU, for example, since you used it in your post. It exists and was considered "canon" until Disney came along and said "Nope. Everything not the movies is no longer canon." That is not a matter of opinion. That is a fact. I've said it before in other places, and I'll defend the following statement to the death:  Canon is whatever the owner desires it to be. If Bethesda claims it to be canon, it shall be so. Unless it takes place in an Official Canon Installment or is explicitly stated by the owner to be canon, it can pretty much be considered "non-canon" or "unofficial canon".

    Rylasasin said:

    This is why I think the people here and on /r/teslore who want to "end canon" or say that "there is no canon" really have no idea what they're even talking about. Canon is not a big scary boogyman that wants to tell you that you can't have a certain opinion or how to write your fanfiction. If anything it allows more freedom by removing the kirkbridian elements that would take the mystery of TES away and introduce all sorts of unrelated strange nonsense. Canon simply tells you what items exist in universe and what doesn't, not what opinion or interpretation to form about them.

    Also, Canon absolutely does dictate how fan fiction is written. If you write something that goes completely against canon, then that means it simply cannot happen unless you create an Alternate Universe. 

    • 295 posts
    November 17, 2016 11:01 AM EST

    I just like messing with people's heads as I spin a yarn about an old fart Elf.