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Gender Roles in TES

    • 1595 posts
    January 27, 2016 12:10 AM EST

    There is an interview with the lead lore writer, Lawrence Schick in which the Orc Wife issue is discussed, as is the gender role in Orsimer society. Definitely worth a read:

    you get a little bit behind the scenes you actually see his wife - his wives plural - and his mother running the show. Is that something which is typical for orcs?

    Lawrence Schick: Yes, it is typical for orcs. Now, it does vary from clan to clan, but orcish society is on the face of it apparently a patriarchy because you’ve got these big, bossy orcs, at the top are the warchiefs and the kings telling everybody what to do and, “go here and, you know, bring me my turkey leg, I’m hungry!” And it looks like they’re in charge but really it’s the Forge-Wives, the Shield-Wives, the Hearth-Wives, the Hunt-Wives who are married to this guy, are associated with the bosses, they actually are the ones who run everything. They’re in charge of all the administrative details of the clan, or at Kurog’s level, the kingdom. And really he’s endorsing their decisions and taking the credit for it but really they’re in charge, and so it’s an apparent patriarchy. But really there are very strong positions for both genders throughout the different orcish societies and strongholds and cultures and, you know, it’s way different than other places in Tamriel but it works for the orcs.

    Kai: It does and now we have to argue who is smarter, is it the guy who is letting the ladies do all the work or the ladies who let him think he’s in charge while they…

    Lawrence Schick: I’m not going there.

    Kai: Ok, let's not go there.

    Gina: ....you wanna take a question break? Elloa was asking what happens to his wives when

    Lawrence Schick: So the question is what happens to the wives when the chief or the king…

    Gina: I guess when the chief dies, yeah.

    Lawrence Schick: Well you know, there are -  like I said, they are the experienced administrators, they are the ones that are running things - they're often gonna have a hand in figuring out who their going to  - who's going to be the successor because it's not necessarily all about who wields the heaviest bludgeon. It's, you know, it’s politics like with every mortal race, and so the widows of the dead clan chief or king, if they're any good at what they have been doing, they have built up their own constituencies and they're gonna find a solid place for themselves in whatever administration comes next, maybe even heavily involved in determining who that's going to be, who the leader’s gonna be.

    As for the Hagravens, ESO has expanded on them magnificently, albeit with great bias in the in-game books. The impression I get from ESO backs this up, though in fairness I can't say Reachmen lore is of any great interest to me. Below is from a LMA, On the Nature of Reachmen

    “The hagravens are abominations. Their eyes are flat and dead, and they live only for injury and domination. The Reach clans do not revere them so much as placate them, and they are hated even by their hag-husbands. Where do they come from? They come from our worst nightmares."

    The accompanying book, A Life Barbaric and Brutal, has this:

    Voanche's clan was ruled by a hagraven named Kloavdra, a claw-fingered crone who was a witch-shaman of considerable power. She was a priestess of Namira the Spirit Daedra, the lady of ancient darkness who commands repulsive vermin such as spiders, insects, slugs, and serpents.

  • January 27, 2016 12:51 AM EST

    The thing about orcs is interesting, but I think I'd like to see it more explicit in-game. You basically deal with the chiefs, and I never got the feeling that the wives were the "real" leadership. A quest where the chief asks you to do something, then one of the wives basically tells you not to bother and that you should do this other, much smarter thing instead (and he basically just rolls with it) would've been a nice illustration of that.

    I would say it's a little annoying that matriarchies in fiction seem to always be "men up front but the ladies are the real power" sleight-of-hand or just straight-up evil. (see D&D, Drow) Is it too much to ask for a society where women fill most of the powerful positions and that's just the way it is rather than some complicated justification or explanation for why it's that way?

  • Tom
    • 624 posts
    January 27, 2016 1:09 AM EST

    I've always had a bit of a problem with how egalitarian Bethesda has made Tamrielic societies, though I don't think it's as egalitarian as people think. Between races, genders, and economic classes. I understand appeasing modern audiences, but it kinda breaks my immersion a bit.

    Men and women throughout most of our history have been pretty much equal, and that doesn't change until civilization when you see that shifting of power and authority to men when class systems, property rights, and inheritance become a thing. Even then, lower class men and women are far more equal to one another than the upper classes. Same work, same rights (that is, little to none). Even then, women have, like Phil pointed out with Orcs in TES, different authority and power than men. Men are in charge of the state and matters outside of the home. Women are in charge of the household.

    While my first reaction is usually game mechanics (developers forgot or went with the easier solution), I think there is a reason the Stormcloaks have many more women in their ranks than the Legion.

    Nordic society places a greater value on personal glory and heroism than the Imperials. To get into the afterlife, one must die in honorably in battle. So when a rebellion shows up claiming to be fighting for the old Nord traditions and values, Nords of all walks of life are going to flock to the call.

    But! Please correct me if I'm wrong since I don't have access to the game at the moment, all of the town guards in Skyrim are male. This changes, I believe, once the Stormcloaks take over a city and replace the local guards with their own. The Imperials certainly don't seem interested in recruiting women as much as men. They do exist, but always in command or administrator roles that don't place them in the front lines (or shouldn't).

  • January 27, 2016 1:15 AM EST

    All Stormcloak-aligned hold guards appear as both male and female. All Legion-aligned guards are male. So, Eastmarch, the Rift, Winterhold and the Pale have guards of both sexes, while Whiterun, the Reach, Falkreath, Haafingar and Hjaalmarch have only male guards. When a hold changes hands, the guards are replaced by Stormcloaks (both male and female) or Legionnaires (only male) based on who won. So, Stormcloak holds will always have some women guards, while Legion holds will always only have men.

    • 649 posts
    January 27, 2016 5:49 AM EST

    @Legion Yeah, you pretty much got it right. As Phil´s source points out, wives are in charge but "behind the scenes". It´s really hard to tell if they let the chief thinks he´s in the charge or he´s letting them in charge. Orcs are really interesting in this.

    And "selling" females to other Strongholds could actually be matter of blood. All members of the tribe are family, so I bet even Orc wouldn´t want to marry his sister or mother. So they trade them to other strongholds, mix the blood a little and then a grand-daughter or grand grand-daugther might return to the same stronghold. Basically. I haven´t encountered a single piece of lore telling which generations can mix.

    • 649 posts
    January 27, 2016 5:50 AM EST

    Well, it´s because it´s Skyrim, mate. Skyrim only scratched the surface of Orcs´ culture.

    • 1595 posts
    January 27, 2016 2:52 PM EST
    Interesting observations, especially as the Imperials arguably hold femininity in higher esteem. Ther most important hero is Alessia and the state religion of the Nine Divines places Mara and Dibella much higher than their Nordic equivalents.
  • January 27, 2016 3:20 PM EST

    Well, and this is mostly speculation, but you could say that the Nords view men and women as equal, as long as everyone is exhibiting (what we would likely label) stereotypical "masculine" traits - aggression, toughness, bravery, physical strength and directness. There are less barriers for Nord women socially, because they're expected to act pretty much the same as the men. (and both genders are socially punished for deviating from this ideal)

    The Imperials put more emphasis on (what we would call) stereotypical "feminine" traits - diplomacy, subtlety, self control, compassion and intelligence; but this also leads to more division between the genders in Imperial society. Women are able to express themselves in more ways, but (potentially) experience more barriers to advancement because they are expected to be different.

    • 700 posts
    January 27, 2016 3:36 PM EST

    For speculation, this seems pretty spot on. I just think of Olfina Gray-Mane.

    "What's the matter? You can't stand the sight of a strong Nord woman?"

    "It's not easy being a woman in Skyrim, I know. But stay strong, and men will come to respect you, and maybe even fear you."

    And then you have Sylgja from Shor's Stone.

    "I might be a woman, but I can crack rock with the best of them."

    Dialogue like this suggests that even though women are held up to the same standards as men, they have to work harder for it. Do Nord men expect less from women, effectively starting them behind men? Is there is a discrepancy in the amount of respect offered for each sex? I think the fact that Nord women have to qualify their abilities relative to men suggests such a discrepancy. 

    • 1595 posts
    January 27, 2016 3:43 PM EST
    I think that is spot on. The role of Kyne in Nordic myth as the de facto head of the pantheon seems more a goddess of war than her Imperial aspect - When she's not crying over her dead husband that is.

    Alessia in Imperial myth is arguably more important than Akatosh - she is his mum and the Mother of Cyrod. The principles she stood for, freedom and healing may be considered more nurturing in their applications than the Nordic warmongering.

    So which is better from a feminine perspective on societal views on gender?
    • 694 posts
    January 27, 2016 4:20 PM EST

    Can we go with no perspective? I mean, in reality I just have a bit of an aversion to generalizations based on sex or gender anyway. I like seeing fierce females just as much as the nurturing healers, but just because it's variety! In fact I'd like to see way more portrayals and perspectives than just those two. Not because one is a "better" archetype or perspective than another, but because I like things to be varied, different, unique, and to challenge the way I think about things. The same portrayals all the time is boring and predictable.

    • 1595 posts
    January 27, 2016 4:42 PM EST
    I think that is why the games are so careful with the subject. On one hand the setting maybe feels shallower to some as Tom points out, but the risk of alienating players is reduced. Each culture may have it's own perspectives on gender roles but they are buried deep enough not to interfere with gameplay.

    For me nothing illustrates your point better than Dunmeri culture. When we see a divine feminine being a goddess of sex and murder, worshipped as a being of good, we know we are looking at something quite fresh.
    • 694 posts
    January 27, 2016 4:56 PM EST

    For me nothing illustrates your point better than Dunmeri culture. When we see a divine feminine being a goddess of sex and murder, worshipped as a being of good, we know we are looking at something quite fresh.

    Oooo you went right for my squishy spot. :D That's cheating.

    All very good points though. Culture sensitivity is definitely a consideration, and I'm going to think more deeply on this.

    • 649 posts
    January 27, 2016 4:56 PM EST

    Yeah, and what I remember from Morrowind, there were lot of women in different stations (I wanted to say positions, but that would come out much differently than I want - pardon my poor english)

    Just look at Irileth, Yanessa, then priestesses or those merchants or farmers. Skyrim actually showed rather well how Dunmer adapted to anythign they needed to survive. 

    But the true Dunmeri culture didn´t inciminate any gender. Though for some reason there are only male Ordinators. Why? WHY?

    Maybe because they would have to be called Ordinatoresses? 

    • 1441 posts
    January 27, 2016 5:01 PM EST

    Or maybe they don't want Ordinators to bang each other, they have to only service the Tribunal?

    • 649 posts
    January 27, 2016 5:02 PM EST

    Chris Diokno, are you trying to imply that revered protectors of the Tribunal can´t hold their passions? That women Ordinator would dissolve the whole order? 

    Shame on you, sir. Shame on you! 

    • 1441 posts
    January 27, 2016 5:05 PM EST

    I meant they don't want the Ordinators to form relationships. Or maybe the Tribunal Temple is sexist against women fighting

    • 1595 posts
    January 27, 2016 5:07 PM EST
    Dunmer truly have a rich and fascinating culture that defies quick generalisations. We can only imagine a Syrim or Oblivion with as rich a society. PG 1Ed can only do so much.

    Dunmer attitudes to nudity could be a discussion in its own right, for example.
    • 1595 posts
    January 27, 2016 5:08 PM EST
    A pure accident. Honest :p
    • 1441 posts
    January 27, 2016 5:10 PM EST

    Wait, what about Argonians? They don't recieve souls or genders until they drink the Hist Sap. And if I recall, though this could have only been on the floating city of Umbra, don't they reincarnate into a new body upon death? 

    • 1595 posts
    January 27, 2016 5:22 PM EST
    Both genders make fine slaves.
  • January 27, 2016 7:37 PM EST
    Yeah, for some reason the idea of having to role play in a "complex" and "realistic" culture where women are considered mere property to the men in their lives doesn't really feel all that compelling to me.

    I think there are better ways of making cultures have depth and substance than catering to an Anthropology 101 vision of how pre-modern cultures functioned.
    • 1595 posts
    January 28, 2016 2:20 AM EST

    No shit? That sounds awesome to me 

    I think there are better ways of making cultures have depth and substance than catering to an Anthropology 101 vision of how pre-modern cultures functioned.

    I think to some degree they have. We have already seen how, if you are prepared to dig a little, there exists in the setting unconventional gender roles beyond the obvious inversion.

  • January 28, 2016 2:25 AM EST

    It's funny, because I wrote that, then, being me, I spent the next few hours obsessing over how to make a game that deals with that very subject. I still think TES is not the place for it, being more straightforward escapist fantasy, but you can squeeze a lot of pathos and teachable moments out of restricting the player.

    • 1595 posts
    January 28, 2016 2:42 AM EST

    Yeah, it kinda works for a setting like The Witcher which tackles some more serious subjects in it's relentlessly grim world, but TES does well to remain more accessible.

    As long as some of that stuff is hinted in texts and can be interpreted I am happy. I mean, if you read the 36 Lessons, subjects like anal sex are broached - it's illegal in Morrowind apparently.

    I am not an advocate that TES is dumbing down - it still remains a rich and complex setting, but if the next game tries to be more Morrowind and less Skyrim in terms of how lore is dispensed then I will be very pleased.