Forums » The Lounge

• Legion

  

  • 700 posts
   

  December 18, 2015 1:15 PM EST

  For so much of my gaming life, I've looked up to the characters in the games I immerse myself in. I've taken a little bit away from the protagonists, the NPC's I've met, and all the interactions I've had. I see someone with a quality I admire an I adopt that quality to see if it feels genuine, if I can work it.
  
  All these characters are so interesting even in all of their flawed existences! So when you talk about hope to become something more than you are now, I know the feeling. Who I am today has been largely determined by what qualities stuck with me from the characters I've met and played, and I still look for ways to better myself.
  
  Sometimes video games just provide a new perspective on how to do that, and make it feel okay to need help sometimes. Even Commander Shepard needed to lean on people. I'm glad too, because one cannot expect someone tasked with saving the galaxy to just brush all the shit off every new day.
  
  But even though I'm not yet all I want to be, I can still look at these people I've met in these fictional worlds and feel inspired to at least keep trying, even if sometimes I do need a little help.
• Overhate

  

  • 288 posts
   

  December 18, 2015 1:23 PM EST

  Reality is what it is. You don't get to choose it and you don't get to determine the rules it abides.

  So, what choices are there:

  1) If you're lucky and your own personal morals, feelings and understandings on how things should be coincide more or less with the ones of reality, you're ok.

  But what if you're not? You can:

  2) Fight desperately to change reality all your life like don Quixote vs the windmills;

  3) Accept the rules of reality and live a lie inside, but fitting outside; or,

  4) Live as much as you can in a world of your own.

• Overhate

  

  • 288 posts
   

  December 18, 2015 1:25 PM EST

  Oh, I didn't stop going to work too. WoW had a monthly subscription fee, after all

• Legion

  

  • 700 posts
   

  December 18, 2015 1:27 PM EST

  Thanks Ry, I really appreciate it. You always have such kind words. Honestly, I hoped for two or three pages to come out of this thread. I never expected such an outpouring of sharing, positivity, and support, but I'm really grateful that that's what happened.
• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  December 18, 2015 1:51 PM EST

  It was probably written that way to provoke a reaction Edana, I wouldn't read too deeply into it   Nor would I wish to hurt the feeling of any member of the blog by my generalisations. I have come across people in my life who use the hurts in their past and the things they have gone through to be a special little snowflake, garner attention and provoke sympathy. Not that I am saying anyone here has done that, but I wanted it known that to me there is probably no "normal".

  I guess if I were to run with your assertion that everyone has a coping mechanism you can see the point I was sweepingly making. Would the perfect human being with no mental health scars need a coping mechanism in the first place? Is it perfectly normal for human beings to need a coping mechanism because we are all in some way flawed?

  So when I say psychologically stable I'm not talking deep-rooted neurosis or sociopathic tendencies, but small scale and benign idiosyncrasies which effect who we are and hat we do. I consider myself to be fairly anti-social and misanthropic, uncomfortable in social situations. It effects who I am and why video games are my hobby rather than, say, football. Does that mean I have a mental disorder? No. Does it indicate I have good mental health? Probably not as I am not optimal.

• Edana

  

  • 694 posts
   

  December 18, 2015 2:45 PM EST

  Ah, noted. I'll try not to read too deeply in then. 

  I understand what you mean about provoking sympathy and seeking attention, and can resoundingly say that this is one of reasons I typically don't offer much about myself. (I prefer to remain out of the spotlight generally.) Nor do I believe it was the motivation of anyone else who's responded here. As I said, I just put my experience out there because I suspected others have used it as a tool or crutch too, and I think it's important to feel at least not excessively abnormal. Sharing experiences to find common ground is important to creating a supportive vibe, which is what I think this discussion seeks to do, or at least what it sort of became. 

  I see the point you're making; I guess I just didn't want to leave it open for possible misinterpretation. On my end at least, clarity and resolution on this point were important. 

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  December 18, 2015 3:56 PM EST

  I typically don't offer much about myself. (I prefer to remain out of the spotlight generally.) Nor do I believe it was the motivation of anyone else who's responded here. As I said, I just put my experience out there because I suspected others have used it as a tool or crutch too, and I think it's important to feel at least not excessively abnormal. Sharing experiences to find common ground is important to creating a supportive vibe, which is what I think this discussion seeks to do, or at least what it sort of became. 

  This reply tree is getting confusing  But yeah, pretty much this above. I would hate to think you or any others have thought I may be dismissing them or their feelings. Truth be told this thread is the first time I've heard all of these personal revelations which indicates that everyone here has only replied in the interest of the thread and topic rather than any ulterior motive.

  So, now the air has been cleared  I am no expert in psychology and can really only look at the subject through human eyes, plus I am part troll when I post sometimes if you hadn't noticed.

• Legion

  

  • 700 posts
   

  December 18, 2015 5:20 PM EST

  That it does not! As for driving...well, I wouldn't game and drive. Nor would I drive after an all-nighter. But a person can easily drive after five or so hours of gaming. Can't say the same for drinking. 

• Exuro

  

  • 66 posts
   

  December 18, 2015 6:22 PM EST

  D.A.R.E.  to not game and drive, lol.

• Idesto

  

  • 394 posts
   

  December 18, 2015 11:15 PM EST

  Yeah, that's what I meant; just didn't phrase it very well

• Edana

  

  • 694 posts
   

  December 19, 2015 5:24 PM EST

  Oh good.  Consider the air cleared. I may have been juuusssst a little too sensitive too. So sorry if I was a bit harsh. 

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  January 2, 2016 2:57 PM EST

  Edana called me out on my bullshit and generalisations I made in one of my replies (which I'm pretty sure was in this thread, did you delete them Legion?) so I thought I'd share this article to maybe back up some of what I was trying to say.

  Star Wars fans and video game geeks 'more likely to be narcissists'

• Edana

  

  • 694 posts
   

  January 2, 2016 5:37 PM EST

  Interesting read Phil, thanks for sharing this.  I went ahead and just quickly skimmed the article this news item refers to. It had some interesting findings. I thought I'd call out just a few, since the correlation with narcissism ends up being just one aspect of the findings. Emphasis added throughout is mine.

  From the Abstract: 

  These studies present evidence that individuals may engage in geek culture in order to maintain narcissistic self-views (the great fantasy migration hypothesis), to fulfill belongingness needs (the belongingness hypothesis), and to satisfy needs for creative expression (the need for engagement hypothesis). Geek engagement is found to be associated with elevated grandiose narcissism, extraversion, openness to experience, depression, and subjective well-being across multiple samples. 

  To me that sounds like there are just as many positive aspects as negative ones (e.g. the "headliner" that The Independent calls out). But I get it, that's way sexier to talk about with a timely tie-in, instead of discussing the good things the stuff we love does for us. But back to the new item's more punchy headline about geeks being more likely to be narcissists, I had to know how this was determined and what the rationale was for the hypothesis. So I dug in a little deeper. From the Introduction:

  In addition, it is easier to obtain expert status and admiration for one’s knowledge of geek subjects (e.g., Star Trek trivia) because credentials such as education and certification are not required. Thus, narcissistic individuals who are unable to receive the admiration and praise to which they feel entitled (whether because of failure, or because their grandiose fantasy is impossible to live out in the real world) may turn to a fantasy world where such praise is more easily obtained. 

  I haven't quoted it here, but the article also goes on to say that narcissism is on the rise in general. I found that really interesting. Is it linked to the attitudes of millennials? In any case, this sort of makes me feel like, if it wasn't "geek culture" and video games, it could be academia or something else. Geek culture and video gaming is accessible and has the draw of being entertainment instead of work, and so yes, maybe it does skew for that reason. But to me that speaks more to the power and allure of geek culture and gaming, and less to the type of people who do it. 

  But overall it sort of gave me some hope. As I mentioned, I think it gaming can be a coping mechanism for low points. From the Conclusion: 

  We have also found geek engagement to be related to subclinical depression, making it potentially relevant to clinical psychologists as either a cause or a potential remedy for depressed mood. 

  Sounds like a hung jury to me, but I'll take it anyway.  Thanks for the good find. I guess I know what I have next on my reading list. 

• Legion

  

  • 700 posts
   

  January 2, 2016 5:49 PM EST

  Nah, I didn't delete anything. The conversation is still there, on pages 3 and 4. 

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  January 2, 2016 10:03 PM EST

  I am impressed Edana! I should have realised that you of all people would look beyond an inflammatory headline and actually study the original sources. Superlative work and way to present a counter argument.

  I still stand by my bullshit hypothesis that we are all damaged in some way and that our level of engagement in this genre fulfils a genuine need missing in our lives, that sometimes the lengths we go to in order to satisfy that need goes beyond what could be considered normal coping mechanisms.

  For instance, I would accept that I have a drive to fulfill belongingness needs (the belongingness hypothesis), and to satisfy needs for creative expression (the need for engagement hypothesis). Yet I reject that it is driven by narcissism to obtain expert status and admiration for one’s knowledge of geek subjects because credentials such as education and certification are not required. Yet it is painfully obvious that is what happens in our chosen interest.

  That I consider myself in some way broken is merely acceptance of a fact. When I originally said this a few pages back it wasn't meant to insult anyone. It just seems clear to me that only the most casual fan can make claim to any sort of normality - if such a thing even exists.

  To me that sounds like there are just as many positive aspects as negative ones

  Sure these things are positive and provide genuine fulfilment for those needs we are lacking. Yet wouldn't it be even more positive to solve the cause of these unfulfilled needs? I don't have many friends and so I turn to strangers on a website where our only common ground is a fantasy world yet we're separated by a gulf of anonymity. Should I not instead by trying to solve the root of my misanthropy and bitterness or tackle my inept social skills preventing me from making friends?

  That is probably why narcissism is on the rise - everyone feels safe and secure behind that gulf and can build a virtual world dedicated to the great "I".

  But overall it sort of gave me some hope. As I mentioned, I think it gaming can be a coping mechanism for low points.  From the Conclusion: 

  We have also found geek engagement to be related to subclinical depression, making it potentially relevant to clinical psychologists as either a cause or a potential remedy for depressed mood. 

  When you put it that way it is surely a positive influence. however, it could well be that the words "when indulged in with moderation" may also be tacked onto the end of that last sentence. For how many of us cross that line from hobby to obsession?

  Sounds like a hung jury to me, but I'll take it anyway.  Thanks for the good find. I guess I know what I have next on my reading list. 

  Makes me worry about your reading material more and more if you have set you sights on this. Chill those boots and read Harry Potter or something fun  Seriously, I look forward to your insights.

• Edana

  

  • 694 posts
   

  January 3, 2016 1:03 AM EST

  I still stand by my bullshit hypothesis that we are all damaged in some way and that our level of engagement in this genre fulfils a genuine need missing in our lives, that sometimes the lengths we go to in order to satisfy that need goes beyond what could be considered normal coping mechanisms.

  I get it and we're all obviously entitled to have our own thoughts and opinions on the matter.  This is just one article, and I would say way more research would need to be conducted before any conclusions can be drawn. 

  Yet I reject that it is driven by narcissism to obtain expert status and admiration for one’s knowledge of geek subjects because credentials such as education and certification are not required. Yet it is painfully obvious that is what happens in our chosen interest.

  Just so there's not any confusion, I'm not calling anyone on the site a narcissist; I'm just quoting the article. Rereading that now, I'm worried it could be taken out of context. I mean, I want to steer clear of making generalizations. I can't speak for everyone and everyone experiences things differently. But of course everyone has some degree of self-interest. I don't want anyone to think that just because they're invested in their own work and projects here, that I believe them to be a narcissist. I just mean "narcissist" in the clinical sense, which is how the article uses it too.

  Sure these things are positive and provide genuine fulfilment for those needs we are lacking. Yet wouldn't it be even more positive to solve the cause of these unfulfilled needs? I don't have many friends and so I turn to strangers on a website where our only common ground is a fantasy world yet we're separated by a gulf of anonymity. Should I not instead by trying to solve the root of my misanthropy and bitterness or tackle my inept social skills preventing me from making friends?

  In an earlier response some pages back I wrote that gaming can be used as a tool to interrupt other obsessive and destructive thoughts during a particularly low point. I don't think it's a permanent solution, but sometimes I think all the brain needs is a little change of pace, some breathing room. In this regard, gaming, a new hobby, "geek culture," seeking a community of likeminded folks who are interested in the same thing, or whatever the thing is can be a godsend.

  I've made some good friends here, and established meaningful connections beyond just what TES offers. That gulf of anonymity can shrink drastically, but the feeling of "belongingness" remains and that can enhance or change how you act in the real world. My point is merely that I think it can be as much or as little as you want, by using it as a primer or stepping stone, so long as you're open to it and use it accordingly. Think of it as a laboratory, or petri dish. So in some way I think that community in particular is, or at least can be, addressing the root cause if it lets you reframe and move past a particularly low point.

  I don't think using escapism daily for extended periods of time to become completely immersed in a fantasy world is the way to go. At that point, yes, obviously more serious root causes should be addressed. I just think there's middle ground here.

  The fact is, we don't have enough data to say definitively either way. And this all just my opinion and speculation based on a tiny bit of data collection. We likely won't agree on this point, and I think that's perfectly OK. 

  however, it could well be that the words "when indulged in with moderation" may also be tacked onto the end of that last sentence.

  I couldn't agree more. 

  Chill those boots and read Harry Potter or something fun 

  Are you saying this isn't fun, Phil?? 

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  January 3, 2016 3:19 AM EST

  I get it and we're all obviously entitled to have our own thoughts and opinions on the matter.  This is just one article, and I would say way more research would need to be conducted before any conclusions can be drawn. 

  What was that sample size again, 2.2 k or so? Not a large pool I'll admit but to be honest I have no frame of reference. How big does a study size need to be to be taken seriously?

  Just so there's not any confusion, I'm not calling anyone on the site a narcissist; I'm just quoting the article. Rereading that now, I'm worried it could be taken out of context.<snip> I just mean "narcissist" in the clinical sense, which is how the article uses it too.

  You're lying Morgan!  No offence taken and none meant by me either. I think we can move past these disclaimers now and am sure we could spot a deliberate snipe should one rear it's beaked head.

  In an earlier response some pages back I wrote that gaming can be used as a tool to interrupt other obsessive and destructive thoughts during a particularly low point. I don't think it's a permanent solution, but sometimes I think all the brain needs is a little change of pace, some breathing room. In this regard, gaming, a new hobby, "geek culture," seeking a community of likeminded folks who are interested in the same thing, or whatever the thing is can be a godsend.

  I cannot argue that point but I would say that I find it unlikely that someone would find themselves transiently drawn to the culture or converted into it. I could be wrong and have never conducted a survey, but I'd say most people who are pretty intensely into this hobby and culture are lifers. That means a lot of us may have been dealing with those issues since our early days and turned to Star Wars, RPG's and all that geeky stuff to help deal with our child to young adult years. By now it is profoundly engraved and has shaped our personality.

  Again, my opinion is probably biased as I can only offer a limited view - I'm not exactly in touch with the era  -  but isn't it possible that the very things you say could provide a little change of pace long ago became permanent for a large amount of people? Hell, I'm 33 and have been in geekdom for about 25 years. To me it's normal but I'm not so blind as to say I am normal compared to the majority.

  I've made some good friends here, and established meaningful connections beyond just what TES offers. That gulf of anonymity can shrink drastically, but the feeling of "belongingness" remains and that can enhance or change how you act in the real world. My point is merely that I think it can be as much or as little as you want, by using it as a primer or stepping stone, so long as you're open to it and use it accordingly. Think of it as a laboratory, or petri dish. So in some way I think that community in particular is, or at least can be, addressing the root cause if it lets you reframe and move past a particularly low point.

  That's a fantastic point. My own experiences and choices have blinded me to that truth. I am quite a private person and don't really open up that much. I assume many people are like that so I have tarred a majority with my own brush while forgetting that many have developed close bonds and chat regularly with each other on Skype. That culture is one I have never been exposed to and as such wasn't taken into account when I mentioned anonymity. I guess my point would be that no matter how much I feel I belong, unless I have made some pretty substantial connections with others here, nobody will be that bothered if I never woke up tomorrow. That gulf is too vast to cross and our lives are too separate to say anything more meaningful than the usual platitudes - online friendships cannot substitute for and are only a facsimile of the real thing, no?

  Chill those boots and read Harry Potter or something fun 

  Are you saying this isn't fun, Phil?? 

  Ha, I'd never say that  Normally I give serious thought to matters less deep but which I understand well. So I have to admit I am enjoying running my mouth off on matters more substantial which I know very little about.

  To be honest I am looking forward to being proven wrong by your superior analytical skills

• Vazgen

  

  • 1483 posts
   

  January 3, 2016 4:09 AM EST

  1. Improved my English conversational skills, which eventually landed me my current job! 

  2. Helped me cope with stress when finishing my Ph.D. in a foreign country.

  3. Got me to this site which is one of the best places on the net for me! 

• Legion

  

  • 700 posts
   

  January 3, 2016 1:24 PM EST

  Holy shit, you have a Ph.D.??  Bitchin. What's it in? And where'd you get it? 

  That's a solid list all around though, a fairly impressive one as far as I'm concerned.

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  January 3, 2016 1:54 PM EST

  Vaz, the great thing about you is that you have given back to this site more than you have taken from it and by your presence improved the lives and interactions of those who use it often. If ever the opportunity comes up I point to you as an example of a perfect Tamriel Vault member. I wouldn't be here today if not for you.

• Legion

  

  • 700 posts
   

  January 3, 2016 2:56 PM EST

  Can I jump in real quick? 

  I cannot argue that point but I would say that I find it unlikely that someone would find themselves transiently drawn to the culture or converted into it. I could be wrong and have never conducted a survey, but I'd say most people who are pretty intensely into this hobby and culture are lifers. That means a lot of us may have been dealing with those issues since our early days and turned to Star Wars, RPG's and all that geeky stuff to help deal with our child to young adult years. By now it is profoundly engraved and has shaped our personality.

  I think that because it's a hobby, we naturally turn to it anyway. Being invested in the hobby doesn't require investment because we're dealing with issues. It's a place of comfort and security, something we enjoy doing. I'd say that it's at least just as likely that we took a natural interest in these things and then used them to cope, as they were already established places of comfort and familiarity. That is to say, strife was not the impetus for the hobby, but the hobby existed before the strife and was an established safe space. 

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  January 3, 2016 3:10 PM EST

  Being invested in the hobby doesn't require investment because we're dealing with issues. It's a place of comfort and security, something we enjoy doing.

  I struggle with the idea so I will use Penny as an example. Penny from The Big Bang Theory wouldn't turn to MMOs because she finds them interesting or comforting. she wouldn't be drawn to the hobby transiently. In the episode in which she does get hooked on MMOs it is because she was dealing with issues and needed escapism.

  The characters of Lenny, Howard, Rahj and Sheldon have always had those issue and thus have always been invested - the geekdom took them early as they turned to it to cope.

  I'd say that it's at least just as likely that we took a natural interest in these things and then used them to cope, as they were already established places of comfort and familiarity. That is to say, strife was not the impetus for the hobby, but the hobby existed before the strife and was an established safe space. 

  That is interesting and I should consider it. This is where my perception breaks down -  I cannot envision someone choosing to be a geek. In my experience you either are or you aren't and those who are tend towards being introverted, and introversion can often be a sign of a deeper issue.

  Perhaps you could tell me more about your own gravitation towards the hobby to assist me in understanding? I confess Legion that I am in a dark place at the moment and am probably being negative. The thought that you, Edana or anyone else reading this might think I view you all as "damaged" is not what I am trying to say yet I am aware my words do look as such. This is not my intention, I am simply expressing the opinion that there is no such thing as normal.

• Karver the Lorc

  

  • 649 posts
   

  January 3, 2016 3:25 PM EST

  Phil...you need a hug. Come on my hairy chest, boy and I promise you I´ll tickle you with my beard on your forehead. 

• Edana

  

  • 694 posts
   

  January 3, 2016 3:28 PM EST

  How big does a study size need to be to be taken seriously?

  I think it's not just sample size, but it's just one angle, one approach, one research question. The results here beg answers to a bunch of other questions (obviously since we easily dig into the implications here) and I think we just don't have a complete picture yet.

  I'd say most people who are pretty intensely into this hobby and culture are lifers. That means a lot of us may have been dealing with those issues since our early days and turned to Star Wars, RPG's and all that geeky stuff to help deal with our child to young adult years. By now it is profoundly engraved and has shaped our personality.

  isn't it possible that the very things you say could provide a little change of pace long ago became permanent for a large amount of people?

  I think that's a very interesting point, but to that I might also argue that the mind is still quite plastic, and I think to suggest we're unchangeable doesn't give enough credit to our awesome brains. We only believe we can't change or adapt, but we do it all the time in a number of other ways. The drive to change is the other part of that equation. If it sounds optimistic, it's because it is. I know that wanting to change can be equally hard, and we find ways to justify talking ourselves out of it all the time because of it. But perhaps this is a bit off-topic. 

  I guess my point would be that no matter how much I feel I belong, unless I have made some pretty substantial connections with others here, nobody will be that bothered if I never woke up tomorrow.  That gulf is too vast to cross and our lives are too separate to say anything more meaningful than the usual platitudes - online friendships cannot substitute for and are only a facsimile of the real thing, no?

  Uhm. Excuse me? Cough #rephilourhearts cough. I would argue otherwise. 

  As far as online friendships being inferior to real ones, I think again there's a ton of variation there. For some, certainly. But there's no way that's the case for every instance. To suggest otherwise is an overgeneralization. Especially for people who are more introverted in their daily lives, or struggle with making friends. There are far fewer factors behind a screen than in real-time interactions, and that can give people the space to relax more and be their genuine self more easily, which I think can in turn lead to more meaningful connections. I just think it's impossible (and maybe even a tad disrespectful) to generalize or classify all online friendships as inferior to all real ones when we have no idea what everyone's individual experience is. 

  To be honest I am looking forward to being proven wrong by your superior analytical skills 

  I dunno about that!  You're too kind.

• Vazgen

  

  • 1483 posts
   

  January 3, 2016 3:31 PM EST

  Awww, thank you Phil!!  I'm not as active as I used to but I'm watching and silently lurking in the bowels (spoken in Molag Bal's voice )